ElRey
Starter
Tracy McGrady? Kobe Bryant?
I don't know about Mcgrady, but Kobe had excellent handles and ball control even in high school. Check out some of his high school clips on youtube.
Tracy McGrady? Kobe Bryant?
Well there have been a few. But if your asking me has there ever been anyone that came into the league that was a bad ballhandler and became a great ballhandler, no one springs to mind. But a lot of players have improved their ballhandling. Hell even our own Cisco has improved his ballhandling since he's been here.
Bear in mind that Johnson is not a bad ballhandler. On average, I'd say he's a little above average. Maybe even better. The problem is that he played PF and SF at Syracuse, so he didn't really have a chance to handle the ball the same way a Turner did. He certainly handled the ball well enough to create his own shot. One area where he's much better than Martin, is in passing the ball. Sometimes I think we tend to overthink these things.
Let me put it this way. We all seem to accept that Cisco is capable of bringing the ball up the court and playing a little point guard. That he can switch and play the 2 or the 3. Well in my opinion, Johnson is more skilled than Cisco was when he came out of college, and certainly a better athlete. So take that for what its worth.
Hopefully its a moot point and we draft a big man at 5.
I don't think upside is all about athleticism. Some of it is age. Aminu is currently 19 and Johnson is currently 22. Where was Wesley Johnson on the draft radar before this year? Certainly not in the lottery. He worked hard on his game, and proved that he belongs there. Good for him. I'm not dismissing Wesley Johnson at all. I think he's a terrific player and I'd be thrilled to have him on the Kings. And if you asked me right now, I would still take Johnson over Aminu. Even if it might be obvious that Johnson is a better risk/reward balance as a draft pick I still don't think it's a no brainer that Johnson will be the better player in the long run. With three years of dedicated effort with an NBA training staff will Aminu be a more skilled player than Johnson is now? That's the upside question mark.
And some of it is skillset. I don't think Aminu will ever be the shooter that Johnson is, but I also don't think that Johnson will ever make the same defensive impact that Aminu is capable of even as a 19 year old. With work Aminu can become a consistent threat as a shooter, though probably not from 3 point range. But similarly, Johnson will never be as big of a post threat as Aminu. Some of the decision making there is which type of player would be better for this team. Aminu is clearly a SF/PF combo forward. Johnson is a SG/SF wing player. And I think the defensive impact should be given equal consideration with offense. I've been reading for years in all of these mock drafts that defense is just effort and athleticism, but that's bunk. Defense is a skill. And defense matters.
It's hard to remember that far back. Bryant was 17 when he came in the league. Maybe if Bajaden has some tapes he can pull out on those guys we'll get the definitive opinion...![]()
To what end? Statistically? like fewer TO per? Or visibly having a better handle?
You make a lot of good points, and I think it's a fair discussion to have. I don't disagree with your sentiment that we are building around Tyreke now, not just throwing a bunch of pieces together, and should draft accordingly. But I think you're being a little myopic to say that Tyreke won't be successful unless he's got a SF who can shoot three pointers.
There are a lot of ways to build a winning team. We could surround Tyreke with a bunch of shooters, that's one approach. What if we instead surround him with defensive stoppers and challenge the other team to try and outscore us? Maybe that's not a bad strategy if you've got an unstoppable scoring force on your end. But it doesn't have to be one or the other. What if we have a dominant defender at SF, maybe Aminu, and a deadeye shooter at SF, maybe Casspi, and you could rotate them in and out as needed? And what if, furthermore, you could slide one of them to PF or SG for certain matchups? That's what I'm envisioning when I consider Aminu as the #5 pick. Will he ever be a defensive stopper? Well that's a talent scouting judgement. But if he is that player, I don't think you should dismiss him just because he can't shoot threes.
If you want to create a winner, you shouldn't be focusing on one style of play. You should be trying to build a multi-headed, multi-limbed hydra of basketball excellence. So when the other team cuts off one of those heads two more grow in it's place. Heck, just look at Ray Allen's last two games. Even the best shooters go 0 for 13 some games. But two ten ton gorillas barreling into the lane would be hard to stop even if the shots aren't always dropping. So have I confused you enough or should I come up with another outlandish analogy?![]()
I agree with some of what you said. But first off, I think the idea of drafting Johnson is to have him play SG not SF. Not that he couldn't play that position. So to my mind, if the powers that be, don't think he can play SG, then don't draft him. And if you don't draft him, then I think you have to look at drafting a big man. And sorry, but I just don't consider Aminu a big man. I'm sure that Nellie would in his strange little world, but I don't. And if your drafting a big man, then you draft someone thats either and impact player on defense, or offense. Not someone that maybe someday, might be an impact player. If you can get someone that can impact both sides of the ball, so much the better. Personally I lean toward defense.
What do you think the true position of Johnson is? Frankly, I'm betwitxt and between with him. (Maybe he is a tweener then) Some think he can handle the ball handling of a two, others don't. If I had to say right now, I'd say I'm doubtful of him having the ball handling of a good NBA two-guard.
To what end? Statistically? like fewer TO per? Or visibly having a better handle?
Can Johnson break people down off the dribble? All his youtube highlights are just dunks.
I agree with some of what you said. But first off, I think the idea of drafting Johnson is to have him play SG not SF. Not that he couldn't play that position. So to my mind, if the powers that be, don't think he can play SG, then don't draft him. And if you don't draft him, then I think you have to look at drafting a big man. And sorry, but I just don't consider Aminu a big man. I'm sure that Nellie would in his strange little world, but I don't. And if your drafting a big man, then you draft someone thats either and impact player on defense, or offense. Not someone that maybe someday, might be an impact player. If you can get someone that can impact both sides of the ball, so much the better. Personally I lean toward defense.
Agreed. If the Kings don't think he can play the SG, they won't draft him. At that point, he'd be a smallish 3.
I'd say he's about average size and above average length for a SF.
We should take Johnson even if we don't see him as much of a SG. He's BPA, worry about rotations later. I really don't know why people draw such a line between the 2 and 3 positions, there really isn't a huge difference. He can shoot in all situations, move off the ball, and finish. A lot of SG's get away with just doing that much, it's not that big of a deal.
Yeah, I don't see any problem with his size. Especially with a 7'1" wingspan and the ability to jump out of the building. The dude has a max vertical of almost 12 feet.
There's more of an issue about who he guards on defense. Look, if the guy is going to be great on offense, there isn't a concern, because then the other team has to match up against him virtually 100% of the time. But if he's just pretty good, then it's the reverse situation where Westphal is going to matching up with the other team more than they are with him. And that means that he's not a 40 minute a game player. So that's why I'm concerned with ballhandling, and I don't mean assist to turnover ratio as much as being able to change directions with the dribble, reverse pivot, and other things that allows you to break down the defense. If he can't do that, he's just not as valuable. Then he's the guy that goes and stands in the corner and cuts to the basket rather than a real center of gravity on offense.
Visibly having a better handle.
I agree with some of what you said. But first off, I think the idea of drafting Johnson is to have him play SG not SF. Not that he couldn't play that position. So to my mind, if the powers that be, don't think he can play SG, then don't draft him. And if you don't draft him, then I think you have to look at drafting a big man. And sorry, but I just don't consider Aminu a big man. I'm sure that Nellie would in his strange little world, but I don't. And if your drafting a big man, then you draft someone thats either and impact player on defense, or offense. Not someone that maybe someday, might be an impact player. If you can get someone that can impact both sides of the ball, so much the better. Personally I lean toward defense.
I honestly have the feeling that Aminu will be a stud. I think hes a poor mans paul pierce.
This is getting ridiculous. Pierce was probably more offensively skilled in high school than Aminu is now.
Yep, Pierce actually had a jumpshot and three point range. Also the ability to put the ball on the court and penetrate. There's no comparison in terms of skill.
I honestly have the feeling that Aminu will be a stud. I think hes a poor mans paul pierce.
I guess that doesn't mean anything at all to me. Aesthetic beauty comes a far second to effectiveness to me. Show me where and how that flashiness can contribute and maybe I'll come around but in the end a visibly better handle can be attributed to nothing more than prestidigitation.
Now fewer TOs per is something I'm after.
Actually, I don't see the comparison anywhere.