Whatever happened to Aminu?

bajaden said:
Well there have been a few. But if your asking me has there ever been anyone that came into the league that was a bad ballhandler and became a great ballhandler, no one springs to mind. But a lot of players have improved their ballhandling. Hell even our own Cisco has improved his ballhandling since he's been here.

Bear in mind that Johnson is not a bad ballhandler. On average, I'd say he's a little above average. Maybe even better. The problem is that he played PF and SF at Syracuse, so he didn't really have a chance to handle the ball the same way a Turner did. He certainly handled the ball well enough to create his own shot. One area where he's much better than Martin, is in passing the ball. Sometimes I think we tend to overthink these things.

Let me put it this way. We all seem to accept that Cisco is capable of bringing the ball up the court and playing a little point guard. That he can switch and play the 2 or the 3. Well in my opinion, Johnson is more skilled than Cisco was when he came out of college, and certainly a better athlete. So take that for what its worth.

Hopefully its a moot point and we draft a big man at 5.
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Can Johnson break people down off the dribble? All his youtube highlights are just dunks.
 
Don't understand the fascination with Aminu. He looks so raw. Doesn't seem very skilled at all, even for a post player. Even his supposed elite athleticism doesn't seem to be all that impressive with his vertical at the combine.
 
hrdboild said:
I don't think upside is all about athleticism. Some of it is age. Aminu is currently 19 and Johnson is currently 22. Where was Wesley Johnson on the draft radar before this year? Certainly not in the lottery. He worked hard on his game, and proved that he belongs there. Good for him. I'm not dismissing Wesley Johnson at all. I think he's a terrific player and I'd be thrilled to have him on the Kings. And if you asked me right now, I would still take Johnson over Aminu. Even if it might be obvious that Johnson is a better risk/reward balance as a draft pick I still don't think it's a no brainer that Johnson will be the better player in the long run. With three years of dedicated effort with an NBA training staff will Aminu be a more skilled player than Johnson is now? That's the upside question mark.

And some of it is skillset. I don't think Aminu will ever be the shooter that Johnson is, but I also don't think that Johnson will ever make the same defensive impact that Aminu is capable of even as a 19 year old. With work Aminu can become a consistent threat as a shooter, though probably not from 3 point range. But similarly, Johnson will never be as big of a post threat as Aminu. Some of the decision making there is which type of player would be better for this team. Aminu is clearly a SF/PF combo forward. Johnson is a SG/SF wing player. And I think the defensive impact should be given equal consideration with offense. I've been reading for years in all of these mock drafts that defense is just effort and athleticism, but that's bunk. Defense is a skill. And defense matters.
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On your last note, defense is about effort, but its about educated effort. Great defensive players spend a lot time studying film of their opponent. Being athletic certainly doesn't hurt, but there have been a lot of average athletes that were good defenders.

As far as potential goes. I'm sort of a bird in hand kind of guy. If I can draft a player that already knows how to shoot the ball vrs one that might learn to shoot the ball, I'll take the one that already has the skill. I don't care about the age. I don't think Johnson is going to be needing a wheel chair anytime soon. I've nothing against Aminu personally. He just has done nothing to wow me. Granted, I didn't see every game he played. But I did see a lot of his games. Its possible that he could be the next Josh Smith down the road. Its also possible that he'll be a career bench player. Yeah, most players improve their shooting after entering the NBA. But there are those few that never do. For some reason they just don't have the touch. What bothers me about Aminu is that he doesn't even have touch around the basket. He misses layups and little hookshots.

I could be wrong about him. I hope I'am. But I hope the Kings don't gamble on him. I'd rather someone else do it.
 
Kingster said:
It's hard to remember that far back. Bryant was 17 when he came in the league. Maybe if Bajaden has some tapes he can pull out on those guys we'll get the definitive opinion...:)
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I think I was carving images into stone back then. Come to think of it, I might be able to access some film from back then.. I'll let you know..:)
 
Sparky6string said:
To what end? Statistically? like fewer TO per? Or visibly having a better handle?
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You didn't ask me, but in my opinion it would be visibly better handles. Turnovers can be a result of bad handles, but more often than not they're the result of bad decision making. Good handles or not.
 
hrdboild said:
You make a lot of good points, and I think it's a fair discussion to have. I don't disagree with your sentiment that we are building around Tyreke now, not just throwing a bunch of pieces together, and should draft accordingly. But I think you're being a little myopic to say that Tyreke won't be successful unless he's got a SF who can shoot three pointers.

There are a lot of ways to build a winning team. We could surround Tyreke with a bunch of shooters, that's one approach. What if we instead surround him with defensive stoppers and challenge the other team to try and outscore us? Maybe that's not a bad strategy if you've got an unstoppable scoring force on your end. But it doesn't have to be one or the other. What if we have a dominant defender at SF, maybe Aminu, and a deadeye shooter at SF, maybe Casspi, and you could rotate them in and out as needed? And what if, furthermore, you could slide one of them to PF or SG for certain matchups? That's what I'm envisioning when I consider Aminu as the #5 pick. Will he ever be a defensive stopper? Well that's a talent scouting judgement. But if he is that player, I don't think you should dismiss him just because he can't shoot threes.

If you want to create a winner, you shouldn't be focusing on one style of play. You should be trying to build a multi-headed, multi-limbed hydra of basketball excellence. So when the other team cuts off one of those heads two more grow in it's place. Heck, just look at Ray Allen's last two games. Even the best shooters go 0 for 13 some games. But two ten ton gorillas barreling into the lane would be hard to stop even if the shots aren't always dropping. So have I confused you enough or should I come up with another outlandish analogy? :D
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I agree with some of what you said. But first off, I think the idea of drafting Johnson is to have him play SG not SF. Not that he couldn't play that position. So to my mind, if the powers that be, don't think he can play SG, then don't draft him. And if you don't draft him, then I think you have to look at drafting a big man. And sorry, but I just don't consider Aminu a big man. I'm sure that Nellie would in his strange little world, but I don't. And if your drafting a big man, then you draft someone thats either and impact player on defense, or offense. Not someone that maybe someday, might be an impact player. If you can get someone that can impact both sides of the ball, so much the better. Personally I lean toward defense.
 
bajaden said:
I agree with some of what you said. But first off, I think the idea of drafting Johnson is to have him play SG not SF. Not that he couldn't play that position. So to my mind, if the powers that be, don't think he can play SG, then don't draft him. And if you don't draft him, then I think you have to look at drafting a big man. And sorry, but I just don't consider Aminu a big man. I'm sure that Nellie would in his strange little world, but I don't. And if your drafting a big man, then you draft someone thats either and impact player on defense, or offense. Not someone that maybe someday, might be an impact player. If you can get someone that can impact both sides of the ball, so much the better. Personally I lean toward defense.
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See right now I think our depth chart looks like this:

Evans, ?
?, ?
?, Casspi
?, ?
?, ?

Do we need a big man, yes. But we also need a SG, SF, and PF. Like everyone else I hope Thompson, Greene, Landry, Hawes, Beno, Garcia, etc are going to get better and lock up some of those positions, that would be the best-case-scenario, but it hasn't happened yet. I really only put Casspi down as a definite because he's young, competitive, and brings in his own huge fanbase.

I mentioned this earlier in the top 5 topic: Once you get past the first 4 guys on the board this year, you have to draft BPA or you're basically giving up any chance at getting a star player. We've been hopeless on interior defense for a long time, but you don't make that problem better by reaching for a lesser talent. If you do that you're going to be exactly where you are now except with Udoh instead of Thompson or Monroe instead of Hawes.

So basically I don't think Aminu is a big man either, and I wouldn't draft him at all if I thought he could only play PF in the NBA. We absolutely do not need another undersized PF. But we could use a big, physical SF who is one of the best rebounders at his position and a versatile defender. That's the angle I'm looking at. We should draft the guy with the most potential to be a dominat player at their position, whatever position that is.
 
My beef with Aminu is that I'm just not sure he'll succeed offensively at the NBA level. Aminu attempts to take a fair amount of mid-range J's, but he's not very effective shooting them, ranking even among the bottom half of all NCAA PFs; moreover, he also appears to lack range on his shot. It's problematic because he definitely needs a face-up game given that he lacks the strength to play against stronger SFs or PFs, and while he's quite athletic offensively (dunks at a decent rate), he doesn't finish well on his own moves. At this point offensively he's a forced jumpshooter who's most reliable when he's scoring garbage buckets, and just very raw. He's farther behind than say, Thaddeus Young was offensively, and I'm just not that sure he's able to reach his offensive potential. There's slight hope--he's a near-okay free throw shooter, and his team does better offensively when he's on the court, but those aren't major pluses.

It goes beyond the offense--he's just a lengthy athlete, which if he had good offense would make him look "smooth" and elevate his stock, but without that makes him look rather ordinary athletically. I'd classify more as a lengthy, thoroughbred athlete than freak, as the only physical tool he stands out in for the NBA is his length (7'3" wingspan). Everything else is just all right--okay lateral quickness, okay leaping ability, a tad weak for the PF position, so immediately I'm not thinking Thaddeus Young or Josh Smith here even though they're all 6'9" 200 lb type guys.

I think Aminu will ultimately succeed as a sort of hustle player who thrives on matchup problems. If there's one thing he's really, really good at for the NBA, it's his rebounding ability on both ends of the court. He's also an "impact player" defensively--his team defense is solid, and while he's not overwhelming in either he's always in the fray for steals and blocks. There's value for those sort of guys in the league--6'8" cutting dunking thoroughbreds who can hustle, rebound really well, and defend solidly are always the sort of glue guys teams like to covet, and at the bare minimum Aminu's going to be that. Aminu's offensive rebounding this year and ability to get to the free throw line (only three PFs got to the line more/used more possessions) also indicate his hustling ability.

But it's hard to see him becoming more than that, because he isn't a "skill" player at all--he's a very poor passer, turnover prone, and on top of all that can't really shoot that well as mentioned, so that's three hurdles which he has to pass. Not to mention he isn't a standout athlete at the next level. So there's a cap to how good he can be (personally I think the best he can do is just make his jumper passable and really try to enhance his defense). He's not really a lottery prospect, as he's a bit position-less offensively, so he has to be cultivated properly. There's actually some bust potential with him if a bad coach doesn't teach him good defense, but at his peak he could be better than a prototypical glue guy because of his rebounding ability. He should try to emulate Luc Richard Mbah a Moute, I think. I'm just not that high on him, and I think he should be be a pick in the 20s-30s rather than a lottery pick.
 
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Kingster said:
What do you think the true position of Johnson is? Frankly, I'm betwitxt and between with him. (Maybe he is a tweener then) Some think he can handle the ball handling of a two, others don't. If I had to say right now, I'd say I'm doubtful of him having the ball handling of a good NBA two-guard.
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Johnson would make a much better 2 than Aminu would a 4. The impression I get is that Aminu has no desire to be a PF.
 
ElRey said:
Can Johnson break people down off the dribble? All his youtube highlights are just dunks.
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That's the big question. I didn't see it in the games I watched. Others have said that he's pretty good in that area. If you look on the draft sites, one of the issues that is brought up is the ability to get his own shot. So there doesn't seem to be consensus on this point.
 
bajaden said:
I agree with some of what you said. But first off, I think the idea of drafting Johnson is to have him play SG not SF. Not that he couldn't play that position. So to my mind, if the powers that be, don't think he can play SG, then don't draft him. And if you don't draft him, then I think you have to look at drafting a big man. And sorry, but I just don't consider Aminu a big man. I'm sure that Nellie would in his strange little world, but I don't. And if your drafting a big man, then you draft someone thats either and impact player on defense, or offense. Not someone that maybe someday, might be an impact player. If you can get someone that can impact both sides of the ball, so much the better. Personally I lean toward defense.
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Agreed. If the Kings don't think he can play the SG, they won't draft him. At that point, he'd be a smallish 3.
 
We should take Johnson even if we don't see him as much of a SG. He's BPA, worry about rotations later. I really don't know why people draw such a line between the 2 and 3 positions, there really isn't a huge difference. He can shoot in all situations, move off the ball, and finish. A lot of SG's get away with just doing that much, it's not that big of a deal.
 
Vlade4GM said:
I'd say he's about average size and above average length for a SF.
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Yeah, I don't see any problem with his size. Especially with a 7'1" wingspan and the ability to jump out of the building. The dude has a max vertical of almost 12 feet.
 
Aminu's skills dont come anywhere near Johnson's and to bet that in 3 years he'll be near him in comparison is a very risky and pointless bet. Comparing them physically, I don't see this gigantic difference between the two. Aminu has about an inch on Johnson height wise, a little over two inches in reach, and about 10 lbs more. I think Johnson is definitely more athletic, so I don't see where this huge ceiling in comparison to Johnson comes from. I think people are buying way too much into the "potential" hype of Aminu, as well as dwelling on his age. Aminu hasn't been lauded for work ethic, he didn't really dramatically improve skills wise from his freshman to sophomore year, and ball handling, passing, and post moves are skills that are very hard to dramatically improve on. Aminu's shot mechanics are pretty poor too, which has to be considered when looking at potential to improve shooting.

While I don't put a lot of stock into athletic measurements, if Aminu were really a freak athlete, I think he'd put up better vertical numbers than he did. I'm not saying that the numbers say what kind of leaper he is exactly, but do supposed freak athletes ever test out that poorly? I'd be curious to find out. The reason I bring it up is because sometimes players with really long arms can create an optical illusion of greater jumping ability than they really have.

I just don't see how Aminu's ceiling is much higher than Johnson's, if at all.
 
I watched that Wake Forest/Kentucky NCAA tournament game. Aminu was not very impressive. I think he's all potential right now. He's also a tweener, short for a power forward but also doesn't have the skills for a small forward. Pass.
 
Vlade4GM said:
We should take Johnson even if we don't see him as much of a SG. He's BPA, worry about rotations later. I really don't know why people draw such a line between the 2 and 3 positions, there really isn't a huge difference. He can shoot in all situations, move off the ball, and finish. A lot of SG's get away with just doing that much, it's not that big of a deal.
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There's more of an issue about who he guards on defense. Look, if the guy is going to be great on offense, there isn't a concern, because then the other team has to match up against him virtually 100% of the time. But if he's just pretty good, then it's the reverse situation where Westphal is going to matching up with the other team more than they are with him. And that means that he's not a 40 minute a game player. So that's why I'm concerned with ballhandling, and I don't mean assist to turnover ratio as much as being able to change directions with the dribble, reverse pivot, and other things that allows you to break down the defense. If he can't do that, he's just not as valuable. Then he's the guy that goes and stands in the corner and cuts to the basket rather than a real center of gravity on offense.
 
bajaden said:
Yeah, I don't see any problem with his size. Especially with a 7'1" wingspan and the ability to jump out of the building. The dude has a max vertical of almost 12 feet.
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I think those abilities don't compensate enough for guarding bigger, taller 3s on the inside. They'll just bump him a little to offset that advantage inside. Those abilities are much more valuable in off-the-ball defense on the interior and on-the-ball defense outside than guarding against post-ups.
 
Kingster said:
There's more of an issue about who he guards on defense. Look, if the guy is going to be great on offense, there isn't a concern, because then the other team has to match up against him virtually 100% of the time. But if he's just pretty good, then it's the reverse situation where Westphal is going to matching up with the other team more than they are with him. And that means that he's not a 40 minute a game player. So that's why I'm concerned with ballhandling, and I don't mean assist to turnover ratio as much as being able to change directions with the dribble, reverse pivot, and other things that allows you to break down the defense. If he can't do that, he's just not as valuable. Then he's the guy that goes and stands in the corner and cuts to the basket rather than a real center of gravity on offense.
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Defensively, I'd compare him to a slimmer Gerald Wallace, in terms of tools. I don't think he'll have many problems with his 2/3 defense.

I really don't understand this impression that you have to be an advanced 1-on-1 dribbler to be a perimeter scorer, and everyone else is a spot up shooter.
 
Kingster said:
Visibly having a better handle.
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I guess that doesn't mean anything at all to me. Aesthetic beauty comes a far second to effectiveness to me. Show me where and how that flashiness can contribute and maybe I'll come around but in the end a visibly better handle can be attributed to nothing more than prestidigitation.

Now fewer TOs per is something I'm after.
 
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bajaden said:
I agree with some of what you said. But first off, I think the idea of drafting Johnson is to have him play SG not SF. Not that he couldn't play that position. So to my mind, if the powers that be, don't think he can play SG, then don't draft him. And if you don't draft him, then I think you have to look at drafting a big man. And sorry, but I just don't consider Aminu a big man. I'm sure that Nellie would in his strange little world, but I don't. And if your drafting a big man, then you draft someone thats either and impact player on defense, or offense. Not someone that maybe someday, might be an impact player. If you can get someone that can impact both sides of the ball, so much the better. Personally I lean toward defense.
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Maybe they have a trade worked out to acquire an SG from a trade for a SF. By your philosophy there the percentages can easily be favoring taking a big, and if Cousins is gone be prepared for Monroe or Aldrich.

I was thinking this the other day- Petrie and gang might surprise us and go for something totally pragmatic so prepare yourselves.
 
Vlade4GM said:
This is getting ridiculous. Pierce was probably more offensively skilled in high school than Aminu is now.
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Yep, Pierce actually had a jumpshot and three point range. Also the ability to put the ball on the court and penetrate. There's no comparison in terms of skill.
 
Sparky6string said:
I guess that doesn't mean anything at all to me. Aesthetic beauty comes a far second to effectiveness to me. Show me where and how that flashiness can contribute and maybe I'll come around but in the end a visibly better handle can be attributed to nothing more than prestidigitation.

Now fewer TOs per is something I'm after.
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Aesthic beauty? :D Yeah, I really don't care if he's Picaso. I'm more concerned that he can change directions quickly with the ball in his hands, penetrate to the basket, make defenses collapse on him, etc. If I thought he were a great outside shooter, I wouldn't be as concerned, but he's just not that great of an outside shooter.
 
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