Agent23
Starter
Is that you Grant?
What to do with Isaiah Thomas?
- Thread starter Darth Divac
- Start date
Is that you Grant?
Padrino
All-Star
sooooo... why do these factors apply to isaiah thomas and not tyreke evans, who you've criticized incessantly despite the fact that the conditions under which both have performed remain the same? poor coaching? check. inconsistent minutes? check. lack of complementary talent? check. what makes thomas a winner when both he and evans play for a loser?
oh wait... it's "heart," right?
K
KingMilz
Guest
lmao dude seriously he would be lucky to even crack the top 25
Heres 21 PG's hes not even close to
Calderon, Conley, Dragic, Holiday, Irving, Jennings, Lawson, Lillard, Lowry,Parker, Paul, Rondo, Rose, Rubio, J.Teague, Wall, Westbrook, Williams, Curry, G. Hill, Vasquez
10 guys who would all start over him in Sac-Town and are all around better
Felton, Chalmers, Lin, Nash (simply cause hes old), Walker, Knight (played lots of PG before Calderon came), A.Miller, Jack, Nelson, D Harris, Ridnour (forced to play out of position in Twolves)
Guys in his catagory
Barea (i think hes better than IT simply due to what hes done on the biggest stage), Augustine (stuck behind Hill), Bayless, Bledsoe, Bynum, Collison, Robinson, Sessions, Udrih
there is no way hes anywhere near going to become anything close to one of the better guards in the L.
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Beno Udrih was a much better PG with us than Isaiah Thomas is.
Kingsnbucs1987
Bench
Why is it okay to play him 30 minutes at the point when it wasn't okay for Evans and everybody put the NaPG label on him. After 4 years of being jerked around, Reke is still a better PG than IT. Evans was a winner to before he got here, but that didn't stop people from casting him aside.
K
KingMilz
Guest
I know I was trying to be kind since the last time I did this i was awfully harsh towards JT
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
my bad. he is nate robinson lite
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
makes me miss the "beno draino" comments from jerry.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
IT has to make a decision here pretty quick on who he is going to be, because this is who he has begun to resemble:
And those guys aren't true PGs, and they aren't even consistent starters. They are 6th men, selfish gunners. They get passed around from team to team according to need at the moment. Team lacking scoring punch? Go sign a guy who guns up a shot every single time he touches the ball, and use judiciously.
The good news is I think IT legitimately has more pure PG skills than maybe any of the guys on the list. The bad news is I think he's got a bigger ego than anybody on the team not named Cousins, and that he's been filled with a constant stream of puffer fish nonsense from Smart, our TV crew and all the rest. If his head doesn't explode from all the swelling its undergoing it will be a miracle. And to make matters worse, next year is a contract year. He needs to be reigned in in the worst way, if its not already too late.
And those guys aren't true PGs, and they aren't even consistent starters. They are 6th men, selfish gunners. They get passed around from team to team according to need at the moment. Team lacking scoring punch? Go sign a guy who guns up a shot every single time he touches the ball, and use judiciously.
The good news is I think IT legitimately has more pure PG skills than maybe any of the guys on the list. The bad news is I think he's got a bigger ego than anybody on the team not named Cousins, and that he's been filled with a constant stream of puffer fish nonsense from Smart, our TV crew and all the rest. If his head doesn't explode from all the swelling its undergoing it will be a miracle. And to make matters worse, next year is a contract year. He needs to be reigned in in the worst way, if its not already too late.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
His measurements from the combine say he's 5'10.25" in shoes. Now I happen to be one of those that doesn't think you can win a championship with an undersized PG starting. Especially, if he's a shoot first PG. Remember how we used to play some zone defense last season, and did on a few occasions this season. You know why were not playing a zone? Because you can't effectively play a zone defense with a 5'10" player out there. The other team will get you in a switch and IT will end up trying to guard a 6'8" player. Undersized players place limitations on what you can do as a team. That doesn't mean I don't like IT. It just means I see him as a change of pace player off the bench. Especially at the money were playing him right now.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I'm in complete agreement. And once again, I have nothing against IT. But the trend with PG's as far as height goes, is in the other direction. Lawson is right at the cutoff point at 5'11". And, he may be the quickest player in the NBA. He also averages almost twice as many assists a game as IT. Chris Paul is barely 6' in shoes, but he's so talented with his creativity, you don't notice. If IT was as creative with his playmaking, as he is scoring the ball, I might be convinced to give him shot at being a starting PG. But he's not!!! His best attribute is scoring. That sort of makes him a 5'10" SG.
I have watched Thomas play for many years being a U of WA graduate. Thomas is a winner and does whatever is necessary to be a winner. Sure he handles the ball too much now, but that is partly because the Kings love to stand around on offense. On a better team he could average 9-10 assists a game. He is a good passer. His defense is under-rated. He has the best hop on the team. You don't have to be big if you get there first. Who is quicker in the NBA? A very short list.
To talk about Thomas being a back-up is to marginalize his talent. It is his second year and he is still adjusting to how fast and long players are at this level. In college he could out quick everybody. He has some bad habits to unlearn. Show him an open teammate and Thomas will find him. His best days are yet to come. His enthusiasm for the game is infectous.
To talk about Thomas being a back-up is to marginalize his talent. It is his second year and he is still adjusting to how fast and long players are at this level. In college he could out quick everybody. He has some bad habits to unlearn. Show him an open teammate and Thomas will find him. His best days are yet to come. His enthusiasm for the game is infectous.
Be prepared for the firestorm, my friend
Padrino
All-Star
meh. isaiah thomas was a "winner" at UW. jimmer fredette was a "winner" at BYU. thomas robinson was a "winner" at UK. yet each has considerable physical limitations at their respective positions that have made their transition to the nba difficult thus far, and will continue to limit their ceilings at a professional level. size matters, people. and of course, the sacramento kings, ever the destination for the tweener set, drafted each of the above at rather poor to very modest effect, as is often the case with undersized players. of course, isaiah thomas was drafted 60th, rather than 5th or 10th overall, which both keeps the expectation down and helps to rev the little guy's engine. but seriously, this fawning over a player whose game fits most readily in the realm of nate robinson is getting out of control. he's a good rotation guard (on a very bad team), and much better for his size than many before him, but hardly worth the "firestorm" he stirs up 'round these parts. there is simply no contemporary nba precedence that justifies the notion that thomas can be a longterm starter in the nba. if some truly believe IT is going to break the mold, they're certainly welcome to that hope-and-a-prayer. but there's hardly any shame in being picked 60th and carving out a career as an effective 6th man in a league of increasing physical demand...
Krunker
Northernmost Kings Fan
Heh, the Kings just posted this on their facebook page to promote IT2:
Isaiah Thomas recently became the first player chosen 60th overall in the NBA Draft to score over 1,000 points in a season since Drazen Petrovic (1991-92). Also, the Kings guard currently ranks 5th in total points and 3rd in total assists amongst players drafted in 2011. (Stats courtesy Basketball-Reference.com)
Isaiah Thomas recently became the first player chosen 60th overall in the NBA Draft to score over 1,000 points in a season since Drazen Petrovic (1991-92). Also, the Kings guard currently ranks 5th in total points and 3rd in total assists amongst players drafted in 2011. (Stats courtesy Basketball-Reference.com)
Interesting discussion of Thomas. I don't put a limit on him yet. He's too young, too talented and too strong to say he is topped out. In that he is like Evans and Cuz, young, talented, struggling with short-comings. I hope we, the world, don't have to decide their fate right now. I disagree that Fredette is n that category, too. He may yet achieve a career in the NBA but he has more and more serious mountains to climb. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future for our friends here.
I think it's strange that people see the notion of moving IT to the bench as an affront to him as a player. I could see him playing a Jason Terry type role on a good team which I think would be a great fit for him.
But as it stands now he's an undersized, ball dominant, shoot first PG and I have a hard time seeing him being a starter for a successful team with that style of play.
But as it stands now he's an undersized, ball dominant, shoot first PG and I have a hard time seeing him being a starter for a successful team with that style of play.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
This is something I don't understand, and it's not directed at you only but others who take this viewpoint as well. Reke is younger and more talented than IT yet yourself and others are more than willing to put a limit on him. Don't ever want to see him playing the point again, yet we have IT who's older and has more experience running the point, yet struggles just as much. But, some seem to want to be patient with the older and less talented player while not extending that same patience to Reke.
Why exactly is IT worth being patient with yet Reke is not? It's a contradiction I don't understand.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Stop right there.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Well, let me fill you in...The first place you start is to opt out of the generalization, "more talented player." It's meaningless. To say he is the 2nd most talented player also does nothing for the conversation. It doesn't tell you what exactly the player is more talented in. For example, it's obvious to the blind that IT is more talented at pulling up for an intermediate jump shot, he's more talented at shooting a three pointer, more talented at running a fast break. Tyreke is obviously more talented at guarding 2 guards in the post or posting up on offense. So instead of going down this road of meaningless generalization it might help the discussion to be more specific about who is talented in what.
Also, Tyreke has had 4 years of NBA experience. That's a TON more game experience, so don't even go there. It's totally disengenuous.
Darth Divac
Bench
Looks like I've started quite the discussion here .
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Uh.....what? Meaningless?
Nothing you said is an explanation for wanting to be more patient with the less talented player. Nothing at all.
Edit: Going by your theory, which is switching goal posts I might add, Pop probably should have concentrated on developing Beno over Parker, since, you know, Beno was a better mid range shooter than Tony when they played together. Or maybe Rick should have developed Wallace over Peja, since, you know, Wallace was a better open court finisher, defender and offensive rebounder.
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Kingsnbucs1987
Bench
So you're holding it against Reke that he came out after his Freshman year, while Thomas came out as a Senior and with that Reke has more game experience, but not at 1 position, look at the positions where it's at 1 year at point, 1 at PG/SG, 1 at SF, and 1 at SG Reke has been jerked around his whole career.
Tyreke's also more talented in guarding people period, a better rebounder, and a better all around scorer, hell I still think he's a better passer and PG than IT. For people to want to give more time to the older player, when the younger one is more talented is crazy to me. Nobody is saying that IT can't play, but why put him on a pedestal over the better player
Padrino
All-Star
quite ridiculous, isn't it? 9-10 assists per game puts you in the chris paul/rajon rondo realm of passing. but here's the rub: when he's on the floor, chris paul assists on 44% of the clippers' made baskets (on a team that scores the 8th most points per game in the league). when he's on the floor, rajon rondo assists on 49% of the celtics' made baskets (on a team that scores the 19th most points per game in the league). when he's on the floor, isaiah thomas assists on 24% of the kings' made baskets (on a team that scores the 10th most points per game in the league). again, thomas' style of play is, quite simply, more suited to a 6th man role in the vein of a nate robinson or a jamal crawford (or a marcus thornton, while we're at it), scorers who can capably pass the ball, but are much more inclined to inject their teams with instant offense rather than floor leadership. thomas certainly appears to be the least selfish of this crowd, but to assert that he's got 9-10 apg in him seems more than a tad silly to me...
beyond the hyperbole, the kings shouldn't even be looking to start a PG who can average 9-10 assists per game, not if it is their intention to hold onto demarcus cousins and tyreke evans, anyway. demarcus is a low-block center, which means entry passes into cousins will often not result in assists, as he goes to work with his back to the basket. likewise, evans is an elite slasher who will get the majority of his points off the dribble. he'll get the occasional basket by operating effectively off-the-ball, but the majority of his scoring will not result in assists. and there's nothing wrong with that. a team can be tremendously successful, offensively, without particularly flashy assist totals. OKC would be the premiere example out west (21st in total apg)...
now, we can argue about whether or not a team anchored by demarcus cousins and tyreke evans can be successful in the long term, but they're the big fish in the pond, at the moment. they're two ball dominant players who should be the developmental priority of this team. as such, actively taking the ball out of their hands does a disservice to the long term prospects of the team. the kings' offense is iso-oriented because their most talented players are iso-oriented. there's nothing wrong with that. ball movement remains a necessity, but not every play requires a notched assist to be considered a success. and it is absolutely not necessary for this team to start an assist-heavy PG, nor should it even be considered ideal. i've said it a thousand times before, but a PG who can move the ball swiftly, pick his spots, hit the occasional jumper, and play passable defense is all this team requires. in fact, such a player pushes much closer to ideal, when considering the roster make-up of a team that starts demarcus cousins and tyreke evans...
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Kingsnbucs1987
Bench
Exactly, nobody is saying to kick him off the team or that he sucks, people are saying his talent is suited for a 6th man type role, especially with our bench woes when it comes to scoring sometimes.
Kingsnbucs1987
Bench
Nobody in that crowd has answered this question, why was it okay put Evans at all these different positions, take the ball out of his hands, and try to turn him into some spot up shooter when that goes against his game, but it's okay to nurture IT and his ball dominant ways.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Boy do I agree with the first part!!
Also, if he actually would pass, there is no reason that he couldn't pile up assists. I don't think he is working at some disadvantage by having Cousins and Tyreke on the floor with him. Why would that mean he can't have assists? Makes no sense. He is not shooting becuase he doesn't trust the rest of his team. If he really doesn't trust the rest of his team, he is delusional.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I agree. To get that many assists you must be the more ball dominant PG, and that's what we don't need next to Reke/Cuz, a ball dominant PG. It's not even about true PG or not, pure PG or not, it's about ball dominant or not.
And, it's why I'm quickly moving towards wanting Douglas given a shot as our starting PG next year. Is he a pure PG? No. But, he's not ball dominant and is more than willing and capable of playing off it. That's what we need. His defense is even more impressive.
Padrino
All-Star
it isn't meaningless on a young team that has decisions to make about its future. tyreke is the superior talent, particularly as a physical specimen at a physically competitive professional level. he's a more gifted scorer, a more capable defender, and the team's best two-way player. he commands a double-team on a consistent basis. if he didn't, he'd still be layup-drilling the entire league. so starting tyreke is a no-brainer. and what does that have to do with isaiah thomas? well, unfortunately, and as is always the case, there is but one ball to go around, and demarcus cousins and tyreke evans are the kinds of talents who should command that ball most often. the lakers certainly weren't looking to start a PG who would command the ball more than shaquille o'neal or kobe bryant. it remains irrelevant that DMC and 'reke are not at the level of those two HoF-level talents yet. it doesn't even matter if they're unlikely to reach such a height. few ever will. play style is what matters, and on a team with a back-to-the-basket center and a slashing machine at the two-guard, isaiah thomas is out of place as a starter, unless you can convince him to just bring the ball up and swing it elsewhere in initiation, and that's no way to utilize his napolean complex. he's more useful off the bench...
if tyreke evans were traded tomorrow, or if he were to walk in free agency, and the kings failed to acquire a substantial upgrade at the starting PG position, then you can certainly give IT a run as a long term starter, because, hell, what are your options? jimmer? toney douglas? it's no-risk to start IT in such a circumstance. but when demarcus cousins and tyreke evans are commanding the most touches, it's a waste to start a player like isaiah thomas. and it's just poor talent evaluation to favor a player like thomas over either cousins or evans. nate robinson has led his teams nowhere. same with jamal crawford, j.j.barea, earl boykins, etc. even the more physically gifted in the gunner's set often find a more appropriate role on the bench, your jason terry's, even your manu ginobili's, etc. these kinds of players have considerable utility in the nba as sixth men and sparkplugs, but to attempt to elevate isaiah thomas to the talent level of clearly superior players is just futile, like swimming against the deluge. there's no history on that side of the waves. as such, i'm still waiting for someone to deliver me a worthy example of a player of thomas' diminutive stature and style of play who was prized as a superior talent in the contemporary, physically evolving nba...
