What Does This Team Need Most?

[Spike]

Here you go.

We are assuming that the Kings will not rebuild. In fact, most of the information available says we won't, so let's get that out of the way. Let's assume that Perry can only take care of ONE THING this offseason. What is it? What will move the Kings from a play-in team to a playoff team in one (or maybe 1.5) moves?

What do we need? An alpha personality? A 30 ppg scorer? Anybody not named Zion? Back in the day, we saw what happened when JWill was flipped for Bibby (despite some consternation from the locals). One move can make a difference. What is the one, MOST REALISTIC move that can happen?

 

[Caccia]

Trade DeMar DeRozan for Cameron Johnson. ESPN Trade machine says it can be done as a straight-up trade.

Not that Johnson is a better player--he is a better fit for the Kings. The whole should be greater than the parts on a well-coached basketball team. This is a big step in that direction.

 

[sactowndog]

well you said realistic correct.

I would do the following:

Trade DeMar DeRozan for Derrick Brooks
Sign Ben Simmons in Free agent
Sign Chris Paul as a player coach

starters:
LaVine, Keon, Keegan, Simmons, Sabonis.

Bench:
Monk, Brooks, Carter, Lyles, Val

+ LaRavia if we can resign him which I don’t think we can.

 

[sactowndog]

Trade DeMar DeRozan for Cameron Johnson. ESPN Trade machine says it can be done as a straight-up trade.

Not that Johnson is a better player--he is a better fit for the Kings. The whole should be greater than the parts on a well-coached basketball team. This is a big step in that direction.

Yeah I don’t think this trade is realistic but if it were I would do this before Brooks.

 

[iowamcnabb]

You have 9 rotation spots. Lavine your top scorer, Sabonis your top facilitator. You need 6 or 7 guys that play defense to round out the rotation. We don’t have to make the playoffs next year but we need to rebuild the culture in the image of the city according to Scott and Doug. Blue collar, defense, sharing the ball. Keon, Keegan, Jonas ( good as a situational rim protector similar to Adams) and Devin. that leaves 3 spots. Maybe you can get away with Monk but the other two need to be defenders.

Consider trade partners in Dallas and Orlando. Two teams with excess defenders who could maybe use more offense. Consider Ty Jerome if you must add a point guard ( I’d rather start Devin) if the Bucks keep Giannis consider a trade with them for Deebo, he could fit there.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Trade DeMar DeRozan for Cameron Johnson. ESPN Trade machine says it can be done as a straight-up trade.

Not that Johnson is a better player--he is a better fit for the Kings. The whole should be greater than the parts on a well-coached basketball team. This is a big step in that direction.

We would do that in a heartbeat but doesn’t work for the Nets. I still think Miami is the most likely landing spot for Deebo but I think there will be a few options

 

[NewArena]

Just hard nosed, high IQ guys like LaRavia. Players that make an impact without having to do too much and keep the ball moving. Thankfully we have a coach that i think will do a great job with defining roles and communicating with whatever this roster ends up being.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

We would do that in a heartbeat but doesn’t work for the Nets. I still think Miami is the most likely landing spot for Deebo but I think there will be a few options

Jaquez is the kind of player that could definitely help us and appears to be on the outs with the Heat. The problem with chasing Jaquez with DDR is that Jaime makes so little that we'd have to take back bad salary or design a bigger deal around, say Wiggins.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Jaquez is the kind of player that could definitely help us and appears to be on the outs with the Heat. The problem with chasing Jaquez with DDR is that Jaime makes so little that we'd have to take back bad salary or design a bigger deal around, say Wiggins.

I was thinking Duncan Robinson. If I remember right he has a 19 mil dollar expiring.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I was thinking Duncan Robinson. If I remember right he has a 19 mil dollar expiring.

Correct. The price of business would be something like that, but for DDR I would hope that we could get a pick in that deal. Robinson can shoot, but he doesn't bring much else to the table.

 

[hrdboild]

Okay, if you give me one move this is what I would do:

Trade Domantas Sabonis ($43.6M salary, 3 years remaining) to the Spurs for Devin Vassell ($27M salary, 4 years remaining) + Keldon Johnson ($17.5M salary, 2 years remaining) + Spurs' 2025 pick (8th pre-lottery) + Atlanta's 2025 pick (14th pre-lottery). If San Antonio wins a top 3 pick I don't think they make this trade but otherwise they're giving up 2 guys they don't really want anymore and a couple of late lottery picks for an All-Star who slots in nicely next to Wemby. I'm assuming that I can draft Khaman Maluach or Derik Queen with the first pick and Thomas Sorber, Rasheer Fleming, or Ben Saraf with the second pick.

This fulfills my goal of getting younger while adding size and toughness into the frontcourt where we've just been manhandled for the past 3 years. Also trading 1 player for 4 players fills out our depth chart and gives Scott Perry and staff and an easier path (smaller contracts) toward making trades in the future. This is the type of deal that everyone decries when it happens (we gave up the best player!) but if the Kings hit on those lottery picks it might end up being a lopsided move in our favor. This also might be Perry's last chance to trade Sabonis before a losing season and/or a trade demand kills his value.

But then most would consider this a rebuild and you said assume there's no rebuild so I'll give you an alternate plan...

Trade DeMar DeRozan ($24.5M salary, 2 years partially guaranteed remaining) + Malik Monk ($18.8M salary, 3 years remaining -- the last year a Player Option) to Detroit for Ron Holland ($8.7M salary, 3 years remaining with 2 Team Option Years) + Isaiah Stewart ($15M salary, 3 years remaining -- the last year a Team Option).

I picked Detroit as the one Eastern Conference team to upset in the first round and they came pretty close (the NBA jobbed them hard in Game 4 with a no-call on an obvious shooting foul that even the league office had to admit almost immediately was a "mistake"). I think their front office has reason to be pissed about what happened there but then they also have to be thrilled about adding 30 wins to last season's record. I'm sure they're looking to make a big splash with their $30.5M in cap space but is there anyone on the market who's going to tip the scales for them? Rather than signing someone like Jonathan Kuminga to an absurd offer sheet maybe they'll want to go bargain hunting for better deals on the trade market?

The whole point of this deal for the Kings is to pry loose recent lottery pick Ron Holland (a guy many a Kings fan fell in love with before last year's draft). Nothing about his rookie season screams "future star" but he's a big forward who can defend on the perimeter and he's only 19 years old. This is a "style of play" move for me. Monk is a terrific sixth man but his matador defense and careless turnovers are both momentum killers. The DeMar fit conversation has been beaten to death but I'll just say that he's one heck of a scorer and he still looks to have a lot left in the tank. Unfortunately on our team he forces us to play Keegan at PF and Domas at C in the starting lineup and then with LaVine at SG suddenly everyone on the floor for the Kings is on the bad end of a lopsided defensive assignment. I don't mind the iso heavy offense as much as most seem to but the defense with this current group is just untenable.

Detroit is in a similar position as the Kings were 2 years ago when they lost that 7 game first round series to Golden State. Ron Holland and Isaiah Stewart were 9th and 10th on their depth chart in their playoff series against New York. This deal gets them two microwave scorers to slot around their solid defense without giving up any of their core group that propelled them in their 2 (should have been 3) playoff wins. Holland's draft pedigree may give them pause but the rest of the roster is ready to compete now and he's still a couple years away. The Isaiah Stewart story has already been well-told and thanks to the Malice at the Palace (look it up if you don't know) they might be extra jumpy about continuing to employ a player who seems extra eager to start a fight at any moment. On the Kings, we just put Beef Stew in charge of keeping guys like Draymond away from Sabonis. That's probably worth the $15M a year right there.

 

[TheMobb]

More than anything a legitimate #1 guy. Guys like Fox and Sabonis are fringe all stars, top 20-30 type guys, LaVine and DeRozan are similar caliber players. We need a guy that’s an all star year in year out, 1st/2nd team all NBA every season.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

More than anything a legitimate #1 guy. Guys like Fox and Sabonis are fringe all stars, top 20-30 type guys, LaVine and DeRozan are similar caliber players. We need a guy that’s an all star year in year out, 1st/2nd team all NBA every season.

Yup! If Trae Young becomes available I wouldn’t hesitate to offer Carter and picks

Walking 20/10 guy and would fit well with sabonis in the pick and roll

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Okay, if you give me one move this is what I would do:

Love my fellow mods, so let's see where this goes...

Trade Domantas Sabonis

...Already losing me. This is a "tank" move, and I'm not there. Despite his defensive deficiencies, I think I've already made myself clear that I see Domas as a much more valuable player than many people think. But let's carry on...

to the Spurs for Devin Vassell + Keldon Johnson

Holy what? We're taking their two worst contracts off of their hands? We'd better be getting a haul of picks that makes Mikal Bridges take a good long look in the mirror...

+ Spurs' 2025 pick (8th pre-lottery) + Atlanta's 2025 pick (14th pre-lottery).

#8 and #14 in this draft? That's it? I'm a HELL NO on this.

Recall when we traded Hali for Domas and the entire league was like "Whoa, they could have gotten so much more"? Well, this is like that to the 247th power. If we're going to trade Domas, we've got to get THE GODFATHER OFFER. This is more like the Disco Godfather offer, and if you've seen The Disco Godfather, well...I'm sorry. Let's commiserate.

If we traded LaVine for this package I'd be pissed off.

If we traded DeRozan and Monk for this package I'd be pissed off. And I think we should trade DeRozan and Monk.

But then most would consider this a rebuild and you said assume there's no rebuild so I'll give you an alternate plan...

Still listening!

Trade DeMar DeRozan + Malik Monk to Detroit for Ron Holland + Isaiah Stewart

Hmm. This is at least worth considering.

The problem with Beef Stew, as you do point out below, is that he seems to be more interested in cage matches than basketball. I loved the guy in college, but he hasn't quite panned out as I hoped largely because of the anger management stuff. If I want to look at Doug and say that this is the man to rein in Beef Stew's beasts - and I would honestly be more optimistic that Doug could do it than anybody else - then he's probably not a net negative.

Holland is a development dice roll. If he can figure out how to hit the three he could be a huge piece.

The whole point of this deal for the Kings is to pry loose recent lottery pick Ron Holland...Unfortunately on our team he forces us to play Keegan at PF and Domas at C in the starting lineup and then with LaVine at SG suddenly everyone on the floor for the Kings is on the bad end of a lopsided defensive assignment.

I think that this particular layout doesn't bother me at all. I'd say that Domas has been better as a dedicated C than he was playing next to Turner in Indy. I'm seemingly one of the few on this board who thinks Keegan is a better long term fit at "modern" PF than SF. And Holland isn't a defensive disaster by the numbers. 5/6ths of his Win Shares this year came on the defensive end. He's looking at 1.9 stocks per-36, which is not too shabby. And Doug (and potentially Bobby) are the guys to drill a defensive mindset into a young player.

Bottom line, I want to know what we can get for DDR + Monk, but Holland (+ Stew) and cap space may well be better than any other deal we can line up. Barring a better offer, I take it!

 

[upinsmoke]

We need to trade Sabonis, not because he sucks or anything but too much cap between him and Lavine.

 

[hrdboild]

Love my fellow mods, so let's see where this goes...



...Already losing me. This is a "tank" move, and I'm not there. Despite his defensive deficiencies, I think I've already made myself clear that I see Domas as a much more valuable player than many people think. But let's carry on...



Holy what? We're taking their two worst contracts off of their hands? We'd better be getting a haul of picks that makes Mikal Bridges take a good long look in the mirror...



#8 and #14 in this draft? That's it? I'm a HELL NO on this.

Recall when we traded Hali for Domas and the entire league was like "Whoa, they could have gotten so much more"? Well, this is like that to the 247th power. If we're going to trade Domas, we've got to get THE GODFATHER OFFER. This is more like the Disco Godfather offer, and if you've seen The Disco Godfather, well...I'm sorry. Let's commiserate.

If we traded LaVine for this package I'd be pissed off.

If we traded DeRozan and Monk for this package I'd be pissed off. And I think we should trade DeRozan and Monk.



Still listening!



Hmm. This is at least worth considering.

The problem with Beef Stew, as you do point out below, is that he seems to be more interested in cage matches than basketball. I loved the guy in college, but he hasn't quite panned out as I hoped largely because of the anger management stuff. If I want to look at Doug and say that this is the man to rein in Beef Stew's beasts - and I would honestly be more optimistic that Doug could do it than anybody else - then he's probably not a net negative.

Holland is a development dice roll. If he can figure out how to hit the three he could be a huge piece.



I think that this particular layout doesn't bother me at all. I'd say that Domas has been better as a dedicated C than he was playing next to Turner in Indy. I'm seemingly one of the few on this board who thinks Keegan is a better long term fit at "modern" PF than SF. And Holland isn't a defensive disaster by the numbers. 5/6ths of his Win Shares this year came on the defensive end. He's looking at 1.9 stocks per-36, which is not too shabby. And Doug (and potentially Bobby) are the guys to drill a defensive mindset into a young player.

Bottom line, I want to know what we can get for DDR + Monk, but Holland (+ Stew) and cap space may well be better than any other deal we can line up. Barring a better offer, I take it!

I like how you framed your reply as a conversation instead of just ripping in to me for being a fool.

And I did predict that no one here was going to like the first trade didn't I? As I recall I might have been the only person who said that the Durant deal was going to be a disaster for Phoenix on the day that deal went down and that's along the same lines as how I see this Sabonis trade proposal working out (we would be Brooklyn in this scenario). Fans and NBA front offices have a bad habit of over-valuing veteran All-Stars based on past performance and under-valuing young players and really good role-players who (because of their relative age and cost) project to be much better values for the next 5-6 years of their NBA careers. But I also think the market for Sabonis is a lot smaller than we would hope. His limitations have mostly been exposed in the playoffs and I'm starting to see him more as a "puts up numbers" guy than a guy I want to build a team around.

To clarify a couple of other details you poked at:

I have no interest in Vasell or Johnson except as bench fodder and in this case they're just there to match salaries with Sabonis for trade legality purposes. A hefty price to pay in the case of Vassell and his 4 years remaining however I also see this as an immediate upgrade if we can flip Sabonis and get Maluach and Sorber in return. Suddenly we'd have a full-size lineup replete with defensive toughness at 4 positions (cause I'll de damned if I'm letting LaVine start over Ellis). I'll go to my grave as a "defense first" basketball fan so I'm willing to give away all of the good things that Sabonis does on the floor for the offense in return for having an actual defensive presence in the paint. And Sabonis himself was an 11th overall pick so it's not like he's irreplaceable with two mid to late lottery picks for a front office that trusts their scouts.

I also don't really care about the abstract value of having multiple future picks as throw-ins. To me a pick is only as good as the player you can pick with it. In this year's draft we might be in position to draft 2 starting big men, one of which can touch rim without leaving the ground. Rudy Gobert isn't exactly the most skilled player in the world but his size has impacted the game for whichever team he's played for. I want in on the massive big man in the middle team-building however I can get there and I don't take it for granted that a similar prospect will be available near our draft position at any point in the future.

You still probably don't make that deal, but I hope that explains a little more fully why I would.

 

[sactowndog]

I like how you framed your reply as a conversation instead of just ripping in to me for being a fool.

And I did predict that no one here was going to like the first trade didn't I? As I recall I might have been the only person who said that the Durant deal was going to be a disaster for Phoenix on the day that deal went down and that's along the same lines as how I see this Sabonis trade proposal working out (we would be Brooklyn in this scenario). Fans and NBA front offices have a bad habit of over-valuing veteran All-Stars based on past performance and under-valuing young players and really good role-players who (because of their relative age and cost) project to be much better values for the next 5-6 years of their NBA careers. But I also think the market for Sabonis is a lot smaller than we would hope. His limitations have mostly been exposed in the playoffs and I'm starting to see him more as a "puts up numbers" guy than a guy I want to build a team around.

To clarify a couple of other details you poked at:

I have no interest in Vasell or Johnson except as bench fodder and in this case they're just there to match salaries with Sabonis for trade legality purposes. A hefty price to pay in the case of Vassell and his 4 years remaining however I also see this as an immediate upgrade if we can flip Sabonis and get Maluach and Sorber in return. Suddenly we'd have a full-size lineup replete with defensive toughness at 4 positions (cause I'll de damned if I'm letting LaVine start over Ellis). I'll go to my grave as a "defense first" basketball fan so I'm willing to give away all of the good things that Sabonis does on the floor for the offense in return for having an actual defensive presence in the paint. And Sabonis himself was an 11th overall pick so it's not like he's irreplaceable with two mid to late lottery picks for a front office that trusts their scouts.

I also don't really care about the abstract value of having multiple future picks as throw-ins. To me a pick is only as good as the player you can pick with it. In this year's draft we might be in position to draft 2 starting big men, one of which can touch rim without leaving the ground. Rudy Gobert isn't exactly the most skilled player in the world but his size has impacted the game for whichever team he's played for. I want in on the massive big man in the middle team-building however I can get there and I don't take it for granted that a similar prospect will be available near our draft position at any point in the future.

You still probably don't make that deal, but I hope that explains a little more fully why I would.

Unfortunately I think many in the league also think that. They were the group who thought Hali for Domas was a steal for Indy. At this point they may well be correct.

My issue with your trade is I don’t think Sabonis returns nearly what people think he will.

 

[kingsboi]

first and foremost the Kings need a franchise altering player that they can build around, anything until that player will be running on the hamster wheel. There are multiple ways this type of player can be acquired either in the present or a player yet to develop into one.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Unfortunately I think many in the league also think that. They were the group who thought Hali for Domas was a steal for Indy. At this point they may well be correct.

My issue with your trade is I don’t think Sabonis returns nearly what people think he will.

Capt:

Holy crap, you're suggesting a salary dump of Sabonis for two late lotto picks in a weak draft?

sactowndog:

Holy crap, Sabonis could never possibly return two late lotto picks in a weak draft!

It's like the website never went down. Long live KF.com!

 

[sono]

Trade LaVine for a solid wing + some fillers, if Perry can manage it.
Next Deebo, hopefully it's not too much to ask for..

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I have no interest in Vasell or Johnson except as bench fodder and in this case they're just there to match salaries with Sabonis for trade legality purposes. A hefty price to pay in the case of Vassell and his 4 years remaining...

Agreed, and one reason I was not in favor of such a deal.

...however I also see this as an immediate upgrade if we can flip Sabonis and get Maluach and Sorber in return.

To be honest, I know literally nothing about Sorber. Maluach I have seen play a decent amount. He's a different player than Domas, and he'll be a better defender. That doesn't mean he'll be a better player overall. I'm lukewarm on Maluach. He'll play in the league. I'm just not convinced he's going to outclass the top 3-4 centers available for the MLE on an annual basis.

I'll go to my grave as a "defense first" basketball fan so I'm willing to give away all of the good things that Sabonis does on the floor for the offense in return for having an actual defensive presence in the paint. And Sabonis himself was an 11th overall pick so it's not like he's irreplaceable with two mid to late lottery picks for a front office that trusts their scouts.

"Yeah? Well the best defense is a good offense, you know who said that? Mel, the cook on 'Alice'. "

I don't want to dismiss your position too much, because I love good defense too. But the best defense in the world doesn't help much if you can't score, and over the years I've come to believe it's not a...as one might say...zero-sum game. Offense just seems to count more than defense. Paint defenders are, I suspect, more important than perimeter defenders (Hello, Thybulle, and whatever is left of your career!) so there is that.

As for where Sabonis was picked, we both know that's not relevant to the player that he is today. Jokic was picked at, what, #40 or so? So if we offer two solid seconds, then it's a more than fair offer? Of course not! Sabonis' value - even to one who values defense over offense - should clearly be higher than his ultimate draft position in retrospect.

You still probably don't make that deal, but I hope that explains a little more fully why I would.

It's a fair point. If I thought one Maluach + one Sorber would be more impactful for the Kings than one Sabonis, I'd look at the deal much differently. But I don't agree on that with you.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Here you go.

We are assuming that the Kings will not rebuild. In fact, most of the information available says we won't, so let's get that out of the way. Let's assume that Perry can only take care of ONE THING this offseason. What is it? What will move the Kings from a play-in team to a playoff team in one (or maybe 1.5) moves?

What do we need? An alpha personality? A 30 ppg scorer? Anybody not named Zion? Back in the day, we saw what happened when JWill was flipped for Bibby (despite some consternation from the locals). One move can make a difference. What is the one, MOST REALISTIC move that can happen?

It seems like the subtext of this thread is, "Without trading Domantis Sabonis." So assuming that's the rule...

Zach has the worst contract in the league. Even if healthy he's not worth what he's paid. So we're probably stuck with him, unless we're willing to burn FRPs to try and dispose of him. So realistically we have to build around Sabonis and Zach

DDR might be difficult to move. There might be some desperate playoff/playin teams out there (Milwaukee?) so it's possible.

If Malik gets traded, you'd better be getting a new point guard from somewhere.
---
I think given the artificial constraint of keeping Sabonis, and the practical constraint against moving Zach, DDR, or Malik. I'd go for a coaching strategy change, rather than a personnel move

- Inform Sabonis if he doesn't get 1 block for every 10 rebounds, we cut his minutes for Jonas. Double Doubles are a vanity stat

- If that's even slightly successful, we can tell our wings to actually guard the perimeter instead of protecting the paint at all costs, which should improve our league worst 3 point defense. (I mean, come on, we may not have the best or longest defensive wings in the NBA, but we sure as hell don't have the worst)

- Reduce Domas' facilitator role; the TS% of the team is 15th of 30, and coincidentally the team ranks 15th of 30 in the standings. Domas leads the team in that metric, and he's 4th on the team in FGA, so he should be taking more shots. Not taking difficult shots isn't being selfless, it's a sign of bad judgement.

- I don't know how you encourage DDR to be more of a facilitator, I don't know how you tell DDR to do anything at this point in his career. Maybe try asking nicely?

- Accept that you cannot control Zach's health. The die is cast.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Stop going gaga forever over mediocre talent. Call it Donte Green syndrome. Been going on for 40 years in Sactown! Get a superstar or preferred two of them, build around that level talent. Not easy to trade for one, sign or draft them but otherwise continue to wallow in NBA doldrums. No way Kings ever win anything of note assembling mostly mediocrity when all the championship level teams have established superstar or superstars. We had ONE in Fox, did not work out. Could have had two with Doncic but instead got Sabonis to try to get to the promise land. Kings may simply be forever buried endless fight just to make playoffs, instead of recognized NBA championship contender. And no excuse being "small market." Spurs have 5 NBA titles and small market San Antonio never makes excuses about anything.

 

[Caccia]

Stop going gaga forever over mediocre talent. Call it Donte Green syndrome. Been going on for 40 years in Sactown! Get a superstar or preferred two of them, build around that level talent. Not easy to trade for one, sign or draft them but otherwise continue to wallow in NBA doldrums. No way Kings ever win anything of note assembling mostly mediocrity when all the championship level teams have established superstar or superstars. We had ONE in Fox, did not work out. Could have had two with Doncic but instead got Sabonis to try to get to the promise land. Kings may simply be forever buried endless fight just to make playoffs, instead of recognized NBA championship contender. And no excuse being "small market." Spurs have 5 NBA titles and small market San Antonio never makes excuses about anything.

One way to get a superstar is to find one before anyone else does. As Kayte said during a recent game, "To be fair, no one knew that SGA was going to be SGA" when he was traded to Oklahoma City from the LA Clippers. That is what we hope Scott Perry can bring.

 

[dude12]

I would 1000% trade Domas. Wouldn’t trade him to just trade him but would be looking for similar ability coming back. If I could get those draft picks that harboiled mentioned in his trade proposal, then I think hard. Would be more hopeful that they deal Castle but I’m like others who think the Domas trade value while good but not so good we get a haul.

Sac is still looking for the perfect piece next to Domas to help cover his deficiencies, if they can’t find that, it’s play in city. Wonder if Houston would move Jabari Smith or Tari Eason if we dangle Derozan and or Monk…..understanding that matching up salaries would have to be worked out. Houston absolutely needs an offensive guy like Deebo

Without dealing Domas, then you need to deal Derozan who I think they can land a good piece. Trade Deebo and Monk together and you could land something better.