Well, Chad Ford says Ellis is available .. put me on that bandwagon

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

For those of you who didnt read Chad Fords' peice on available point guards, check it here http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=TradeWatchPG-090127

Apparently Ellis is a base year compensation player ( NBA term for hard to move ) ... I couldnt really create a deal here were we could grab him, but I think I would trade any two of this yrs 1st round pick, kmart, thompson or hawes to grab ellis and wright or randolph ..

He solves our point problem, sure he isnt the passer I would like, but he is the fastest player in the league with a real good handle and athletic enough to be a great defensive point guard.


Chad also said that Conley was available.... he would be easier to grab, but I would love love love to get monta ellis ..


Is anyone else a little dissapointed that petrie is only going for capspace right now? Im not saying go into win now mode, but conley and Ellis are very young talented players who are under contract for a while .. that means we dont have to worry about them not wanting to play here...

Thats my piece, if anyone can make up a realistic deal for ellis I wouldnt mind seeing it.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

You would give both our first round pick AND Kmart for Monta and one of those two raw big men?? I don't even know if Monta is better than Kevin necessarily, count me out. (Conley on the other hand interests me)

 

[Vlade4GM]

Not a PG. No thanks.

 

[Dreadnought]

Although Martin is my favorite player on the Kings, a 100% Ellis is just about equal or better to Martin. The difference between Monta and Kevin is that Monta is a franchise player.

 

[Bballkingsrock]

Grab him up as soon as possible for a combination of Moore, Beno, Douby, and Houston's pick. They probably can all fit into Nelson's system.

Ellis would be a great complementary young player to Martin and with money to spend if the kings get an expiring contract such as Reaf or Marion then can pick up a Big man like Boozer and we got a hell of a team.

When will Petrie make a move???

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Grab him up as soon as possible for a combination of Moore, Beno, Douby, and Houston's pick. They probably can all fit into Nelson's system.

I hope that wasnt a serious comment


Seriously though, Monta is the kind of player you can build around and I dont think you can do that with Martin.

I hope we take a shot at him, chances are we wont, but its a nice thought ..

 

[Dreadnought]

I hope that wasnt a serious comment


Seriously though, Monta is the kind of player you can build around and I dont think you can do that with Martin.

I hope we take a shot at him, chances are we wont, but its a nice thought ..

Although Monta is a great player, I wouldn't get too excited. He might not reach 100%, and there's no reason to pick up a player who is a shell of his former self.

 

[hrdboild]

I don't understand the excitement over Ellis. Sure he can score with the best of them, but what else can he do? We already have a scorer in Martin who plays the same position, and Ellis (unlike Martin) has shown good reason to question his maturity with the whole "lying about getting injured on a moped" incident which is the only reason the Warriors would be interested in moving him in the first place. No thanks. I like him just where he is: someone else's problem.

 

[VF21]

I don't understand the excitement over Ellis. Sure he can score with the best of them, but what else can he do? We already have a scorer in Martin who plays the same position, and Ellis (unlike Martin) has shown good reason to question his maturity with the whole "lying about getting injured on a moped" incident which is the only reason the Warriors would be interested in moving him in the first place. No thanks. I like him just where he is: someone else's problem.

Agreed.

Ellis is NOT the player that would turn the franchise around. And he's not a point guard. I'd pass...

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

I actually like Ellis a bit--he's sort of like Tony Parker, only bigger and more athletic, especially when you see his 54% field goal percentage (virtually unheard of for a smaller guard) that he sported last year. That's a unique characteristic to have, and I think with his penchance for attacking the basket and scoring within a 5 foot radius of the basket he can maintain that as long as the injuries aren't that bad.

Other than that--I'm just not sure. I did think he was a key component for the Warrior's golden cinderella years in '06-'07, because he's a respectable mid-range shooter and a great slasher, and an excellent rebounder for a player in his position. I do, however, think that his passing skills are very mediocre (especially when he's forced to carry the scoring load), and that in itself is enough to make me pass. He is a gunner guard, but he's a very unique gunner guard who actually caves in to his offensive strengths and can score around the basket and get to the line. I also question his defense, but I don't believe his stats have been artificially inflated with Nellyball--I do think he's that good. But as a scoring guard with little defense and pedestrian passing ability (I don't think there's much potential to develop either of the two for him either), it's not worth trading Kevin for him. That just seems to magnify the weaknesses we already have on this team and not give us any new strengths.

 

[Kings Faithful]

Yeah i like Ellis too, but im not willing to give up Martin. I think Martin is a little better as well as having a true position. Ellis just isn't a PG. Plus even thoe Ellis is more athletic I'd take Martin's shooting ability over his athleticism right now. We suck at shooting as it is.

 

[kingsnation]

Although Martin is my favorite player on the Kings, a 100% Ellis is just about equal or better to Martin. The difference between Monta and Kevin is that Monta is a franchise player.

Yeah, because he's led Golden State to multiple playoff appearances and is never injured.

 

[Kings Faithful]

Monta is not a franchise player...not close...thats like equating him to Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Chris Bosh, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, ect....

 

[PurpleHaze]

Ellis is listed at 6'3 and 177 lbs. Kevin Martin is at least 4 inches taller and without doubt a top SG in the NBA. Ellis is NOT, repeat NOT a PG which means he's going to be playing SG most of the time he's on the floor - matched up against taller players. He could get away with a lot at SG when that beast of Baron Davis was running the point protecting him... But now... Monta is being fully exposed... maybe lost a step or explosivness after injury. W's see bad hand writing on the wall, now don't like his mega-huge contract nor flaky attitude and are looking to dump him asap.

 

[est.1999]

I'd rather just draft jeff teague

 

[Showtime]

Ellis needs to prove he is the same player after his injury, and also stay healthy a while before that deal is made IMO.

 

[rhythmless]

Under what evidence is it that Ellis is a franchise player?

07-08 season:
Ellis: 20pts/5reb/4ast/1.5stl .53fg% .23 3pt% .77ft%
Martin: 24pts/4.5reb/2.1ast/1stl .46fg% .40 3pt% .87ft%

The 07/08 season was their career years thus far, with them both playing almost the same minutes. Monta the more explosive, Kevin the taller of. Monta the better all around player, Kevin a far better shooter. Both have had injuries this season that have hampered their budding careers. Both EVEN ALMOST MAKE THE SAME.

They are both scorers, and they both drive to the basket. Monta finishes better. Kevin shoots the free throws about 50% more(and better) than Ellis.

But you want to trade a player thats about the same age, same salary, same position, and roughly a wash at their respective differences, and give up a big man, AND give up a pick? To solve the pg problem? Last time I checked, we dont have enough assists, and you want to replace Beno with someone who averages EVEN LESS?

If Monta is a franchise player, than so is Kevin, plain and simple.

BTW, after you've "fixed" that problem at pg, theres about 3 issues you just made.

Edit: something else occurred to me. They were both about neck and neck in regards to MIP award too. But that's not what I wanted to say: Has anyone played Street Fighter II/turbo/alpha/alpha2/et al? Know those two pixelated guys... Ken and Ryu? Same moves, same gi (different colors), ones American, ones Japanese, etc. Except for slight alterations that only fanatics will realize, they are the same fighter. Tangent for sure, but take away from this: Monta/Martin = Ken/Ryu

 

[FakeInjury]

I'd rather just draft jeff teague

I agree, and i don't endorse drafting Jeff Teauge.

 

[Merdiesel]

Although Martin is my favorite player on the Kings, a 100% Ellis is just about equal or better to Martin. The difference between Monta and Kevin is that Monta is a franchise player.

WTF?...
That is just about the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time.

 

[VF21]

WTF?...
That is just about the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time.

I'd agree it ranks right up there, but I suspect "The Kings will make the playoffs" has to be a little higher up on the ladder.



Oh and what about "If you give Douby a chance, he'll prove he can be a good point guard."

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Under what evidence is it that Ellis is a franchise player?

07-08 season:
Ellis: 20pts/5reb/4ast/1.5stl .53fg% .23 3pt% .77ft%
Martin: 24pts/4.5reb/2.1ast/1stl .46fg% .40 3pt% .87ft%

The 07/08 season was their career years thus far, with them both playing almost the same minutes. Monta the more explosive, Kevin the taller of. Monta the better all around player, Kevin a far better shooter. Both have had injuries this season that have hampered their budding careers. Both EVEN ALMOST MAKE THE SAME.

They are both scorers, and they both drive to the basket. Monta finishes better. Kevin shoots the free throws about 50% more(and better) than Ellis.

But you want to trade a player thats about the same age, same salary, same position, and roughly a wash at their respective differences, and give up a big man, AND give up a pick? To solve the pg problem? Last time I checked, we dont have enough assists, and you want to replace Beno with someone who averages EVEN LESS?

If Monta is a franchise player, than so is Kevin, plain and simple.

BTW, after you've "fixed" that problem at pg, theres about 3 issues you just made.

Well, I'll start of by saying that I dont know who you guys want if you dont want Monta ellis .. get real, we arent getting Lebron, Howard, Wade, Paul or Williams.

Next, I never said give up martin, a pick and a big man, I said 2 of those things ( 2 of 4 , big men including hawes or thompson ... and also getting one back btw )

Thats besides the point anyways, we dont know who the kings could/would trade for ellis .. but im starting to think some people here dont want us to get anyone ever. I dont understand the Boozer hate but whatever .. the Ellis hate I really dont get.

Ellis is still very young ... you cant say that he cant play the point and then go over on another thread and claim teague, rubio, curry, jennings or whoever you get in the draft can. I really think his assist numbers were low last year because he didnt play the point all that much ( remember baron davis? ) .. He's quicker and taller than any point guard in the league AND he has an above average handle .. I dont know about his court vision, but I bet its better than any rookie your going to draft.

WE have to take chances on guys like ellis. Thats how we need to operate .. I love martin ( I have his jersey ) but he is a horrible defensive player and really doesnt do anything but score. I dont think ellis is a fanchise player yet, but he has a shot .. something I really dont think Martin has. I guess we'll see how he does now that he is back from injury running the point .. maybe im wrong and maybe he cant play it or he doesnt want to play it .. but thats how I feel at the moment, especially because of how poor this draft is .. if rubio doesnt come out we should probly go with another position ( griffin most likely, if we land #1 ) and we'll still be needing a point guard.


anyways .. I would like to hear what players you guys think we should go after .. keep in mind Jordan is retired ..

 

[Gary]

He's not a pure point guard though. Sure he can PLAY PG just like Douby can play PG if you made him. Would Douby be any good at PG? We all know the answer to this.. What happens if Ellis doesn't work out at PG? I will tell you.. We will have an undersized SG and Kevin Martin. Two guys that have all-star potential on the same team that play the same position.

A couple of PGs you mentioned in re: to the draft are pure PGs. That's their job. They see the floor, and look for the open man. Teague on the other hand is kind of blech. Reminds me of Douby a little bit.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Ellis has a lot to prove now that he's back from injury and I want to see him prove it in Golden State preferably for now. I don't want any part of his huge 6 year $66 million contract that he just signed going into this season. Apparently, the Warriors are now having buyers remorse - they must know something.

 

[est.1999]

how does teague remind you of douby? Teague penetrates and can unleash a dunk on the opponent. Doubt in college was just a long range shooter

 

[VF21]

Well, I'll start of by saying that I dont know who you guys want if you dont want Monta ellis .. get real, we arent getting Lebron, Howard, Wade, Paul or Williams.

Next, I never said give up martin, a pick and a big man, I said 2 of those things ( 2 of 4 , big men including hawes or thompson ... and also getting one back btw )

Thats besides the point anyways, we dont know who the kings could/would trade for ellis .. but im starting to think some people here dont want us to get anyone ever. I dont understand the Boozer hate but whatever .. the Ellis hate I really dont get.

Ellis is still very young ... you cant say that he cant play the point and then go over on another thread and claim teague, rubio, curry, jennings or whoever you get in the draft can. I really think his assist numbers were low last year because he didnt play the point all that much ( remember baron davis? ) .. He's quicker and taller than any point guard in the league AND he has an above average handle .. I dont know about his court vision, but I bet its better than any rookie your going to draft.

WE have to take chances on guys like ellis. Thats how we need to operate .. I love martin ( I have his jersey ) but he is a horrible defensive player and really doesnt do anything but score. I dont think ellis is a fanchise player yet, but he has a shot .. something I really dont think Martin has. I guess we'll see how he does now that he is back from injury running the point .. maybe im wrong and maybe he cant play it or he doesnt want to play it .. but thats how I feel at the moment, especially because of how poor this draft is .. if rubio doesnt come out we should probly go with another position ( griffin most likely, if we land #1 ) and we'll still be needing a point guard.


anyways .. I would like to hear what players you guys think we should go after .. keep in mind Jordan is retired ..

There's a HUGE gap between not wanting Monta Ellis and only settling for a Chris Paul or Dwyane Wade-type player.

We have to take chances on players like Ellis.

Actually, no we don't. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the LAST thing we want to do is bank on someone like Ellis. We need to build a solid foundation for the future. You're sold on Ellis, which is fine, but I don't think (based on a lot of different comments in different threads) you'll get a lot of agreement.

We've taken chances on a couple of players with a lot of baggage. Want to rehash the Ron Artest experiment? How about Bonzi?

Just because people don't agree with your assessment doesn't mean they hate Ellis. It simply means they don't see him as a point guard and they especially don't see him as the type of guard we need going forward.

 

[Jespher]

Get the best players and they'll find a way to get it done. Michael Jordan played with Ron Harper as a PG to a championship team...Talent wins out over traditional positions. If a player can play, they will find a way to get him on the court. Ellis has vision issues when it comes to passing, but his skill, athleticism, and speed make him a valuable player to have on the court. A back court of Ellis and Martin would average 25 free throws a game, and they both have the athletic potential to improve defensively...

If we have 2 future all stars I'd be thrilled, even if they do play the same position. Why can't Ellis and Martin play at the same time part of the time, and sub one out while the other plays? That way you always have an All Star type talent in the lineup, and sometimes 2.

 

[VF21]

I added a poll - we just can't have enough polls. Of course, that's probably why we haven't seen hide nor hair of HndsmCelt in quite a while. He hated polls with a hatred generally reserved for the Lakers ...

 

[rhythmless]

Get the best players and they'll find a way to get it done. Michael Jordan played with Ron Harper as a PG to a championship team...Talent wins out over traditional positions. If a player can play, they will find a way to get him on the court. Ellis has vision issues when it comes to passing, but his skill, athleticism, and speed make him a valuable player to have on the court. A back court of Ellis and Martin would average 25 free throws a game, and they both have the athletic potential to improve defensively...

If we have 2 future all stars I'd be thrilled, even if they do play the same position. Why can't Ellis and Martin play at the same time part of the time, and sub one out while the other plays? That way you always have an All Star type talent in the lineup, and sometimes 2.

Because they would never pass the ball to anyone else.

LOL at you trying to use Jordan as an example. Do you see a Jordan here? No, right? Do you see anyone Jordon-like? No. Then why do you use Jordan's team? Because there was an anomaly in that team, what, with arguably the best player to ever play, and a perennial all star/50 greatest player as his wingman? A wingman that was a defensive game changer, passer, ball handler, and setup man? I dont even know where to begin with you using that example...

The 25 free throws a game is also misleading. You are taking two independent statistics, and adding them up. Sorry, but it doesn't work ilke that. You have to account for the fact that while one has teh ball, the other... doesnt.

Also, it's not so much they play the same position, its moreso that they play the same game; drive, shoot. Neither is a floor visionary, neither is a dominant defender. What you have is duplication of skills. You have two players who are best being receivers of the ball, however, the way we play basketball currently is that only one person can receive the ball at a singular time. This in effect diminishes the advantage you get with two of these players.

What you are proposing only works in videogames (but it does work; I've tried it).

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

There's a HUGE gap between not wanting Monta Ellis and only settling for a Chris Paul or Dwyane Wade-type player.



Actually, no we don't. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the LAST thing we want to do is bank on someone like Ellis. We need to build a solid foundation for the future. You're sold on Ellis, which is fine, but I don't think (based on a lot of different comments in different threads) you'll get a lot of agreement.

We've taken chances on a couple of players with a lot of baggage. Want to rehash the Ron Artest experiment? How about Bonzi?

Just because people don't agree with your assessment doesn't mean they hate Ellis. It simply means they don't see him as a point guard and they especially don't see him as the type of guard we need going forward.

Im ok with people who dont agree with my opinions .. that is what makes good discussions ..

I dont think the Bonzi/Artest situations were bad at all .. Ron got us to the playoffs and we actually had a shot against SA .. Bonzi played well in the playoffs too .. then he left, no big deal. The peja - Artest deal was great IMO, peja was hurt alot at that point and wasnt playing well.. as a result we got ron. Ron got us Donte .. we'll see how it all plays out but as of now im satisfied.

Its not like we trade for ellis and then were screwed forever .. hes so young and I dont think his contract is all that bad either. He's locked up, which is nice .. There are going to be so many teams looking for players in 2010 that I dont see us getting anyone there, and Ellis is better than anyone in this F/A class aside from maybe Boozer. Worse case scenario is Ellis is a HORRIBLE point guard and we need to trade him or martin. And honestly, I think Ellis can play better D on shooting guards then Martin despite martins height advatage.

Whats cool is Ellis is playing now, We'll have a decent look at him and see what he can do ..

I still think it would be a smart move to make ... I wouldnt trade our whole team for him, sorry if im making it sound that way, but I'd still like to hear some names of players we can get that are anywhere near Ellis' talent and has significant room to improve.


ps. Dont compare douby to ellis.

 

[Smills91]

Although Monta is a great player, I wouldn't get too excited. He might not reach 100%, and there's no reason to pick up a player who is a shell of his former self.

Exactly and he's on a dubious 6 year 60 some odd million dollar deal to boot.