Voison: Now that he starts, no stopping him

[LoungeLizard]

Wow, that was a long post. You make good points, but man you wore me out.

 

[playmaker0017]

Wow, that was a long post. You make good points, but man you wore me out.

I'm a verbose word whore.

 

[bigbadred00]

The only reason Kenny started starting is because SAR got hurt. It wasn't Kenny unseated SAR because Kenny wanted the job (he obviously did though), but Kenny got the job because SAR got seriously hurt. With that being said, when Kenny did start, he did do a much better job than he did before. He might be a baby, I never denied that. But for the sake of the team, this is a better situation. SAR's production hasn't really diminished (it has slightly due to his injury) since coming back although his minutes have dipped slightly).

To make players happy is sometimes what a coach has to do. Kenny is a baby, but he also plays well when he starts. He's 6 foot 7, averaging a double double for a while. I don't really have any true feelings towards Kenny. I think his shot selection is not always that great, I think his rebounding is pretty good. I think he's selfish as well. But I also think he's playing well, and yes he is one of the many reasons we're doing better now (rebounding is a big part of winning, good rebounding teams win). Artest is the major reason we're wining but if Kenny wasn't producing, we'd be in big trouble right now. Let's just say off the bench, he's not very good as we've seen.

With that being said, if SAR, who is playing well off the bench can't handle his new role on a better team (seems to be so far), then he is being selfish. They are both being selfish. The point is the team and the wins. I'm glad SAR hasn't said anything and I'm not happy with Kenny saying what he did. With that being said, I think the situation now is better than it was before. And finally, we need Kenny to win. He's not great, but if he is underperforming because he's sulking, we're going to suffer the consequences.

 

[playmaker0017]

With that being said, if SAR, who is playing well off the bench can't handle his new role on a better team (seems to be so far), then he is being selfish.

Reef going to management and asking for a move is NOT being selfish. It's seeking a win-win situation.

Being selfish is being subpar or doing things that are detrimental to the team now and in the future to get your way. Reef seeking a move that would maximize HIS potential and in turn help the Kings is not being selfish.

They picked up Shareef to play, not sit the bench. If he's going to sit the bench, they made a mistake and Reef could have been employed elsewhere.

What he's doing is the right thing to do. It's the professional thing to do.

 

[thesanityannex]

Honestly I don't think your sentiments are shared with anyone but yourself who seem to put SAR on the same level as Amare, TD, and KG.

I've never compared him to any of those players. Everyone else makes that comparison.

He can score with any of them, of that there is no doubt.

Outside of Amare, they all bring a defensive/rebounding presence to the game that Reef doesn't. He's a good defender, but doesn't change the game. He's a decent rebounder, but they are great.

Comparison - Reef holding his man to 44% shooting and 13.9PER A good example for Reef's "decent" defense is comparing him to Tim Duncan - 44%/14.9PER. How about Garnett? 45%/16.6PER

???

 

[thesanityannex]

They picked up Shareef to play, not sit the bench. If he's going to sit the bench, they made a mistake and Reef could have been employed elsewhere.

Where is the mistake? He was picked up for the MLE.

 

[playmaker0017]

???

Why not complete the quote:

Is Reef as good as those two? No. Those two are great. They offer more help side effect than Reef, but he's playing on their level on his man.

I'm afraid the stats back up the assessment.

He said I put Reef on their level. That statment did not imply that in the least.

 

[bigbadred00]

So 20 minutes plus isn't playing. Skinner makes as much as this guy does and he plays 1/2. Why isn't he also begging for a trade. Corliss makes as much as he does as well, same deal. So compared to those guys, he is being selfish. Skinner plays well (I think we traded him?) if he starts, although I don't think he's complaining that he isn't.

If SAR was making 18 million a year, you might have an argument. I also believe Kenny, the guy who is playing only 10 minuts more than him recently makes more money than him, if money really means much with respect to talent and or skill.

 

[playmaker0017]

So 20 minutes plus isn't playing. Skinner makes as much as this guy does and he plays 1/2. Why isn't he also begging for a trade. Corliss makes as much as he does as well, same deal. So compared to those guys, he is being selfish. Skinner plays well (I think we traded him?) if he starts, although I don't think he's complaining that he isn't.

If SAR was making 18 million a year, you might have an argument.

It's not a cash argument.

It's a talent argument. Reef is easily more talented that Skinner playing on a good day with God on his side.

I also believe Kenny, the guy who is playing only 10 minuts more than him recently makes more money than him, if money really means much with respect to talent and or skill.

Reef was offered FAR more money by two teams, but chose the Kings based on more than money.

 

[bigbadred00]

How is it win-win for us? SAR is doing well for us. SAR is getting underpaid in comparison to his talent. I think the only one who will win is SAR if that's what he so desires.

You act like we play SAR in garbage minutes. He's one of the better players on our team, he contributes and scores off the bench because that's what he's asked to do. He'd do the same thing if he starts. All your saying is he deserves more minutes? Do you honestly think he won't get more when he gains some of his weight back and returns to form? Let's say, SAR got the same minutes he used to get 33-35 but came off the bench and let Kenny start but only get 20. Would it really matter?

 

[playmaker0017]

How is it win-win for us? SAR is doing well for us. SAR is getting underpaid in comparison to his talent. I think the only one who will win is SAR if that's what he so desires.

Reef's contract vs talent level allows you to unload overpaid people with bad contracts for pieces that fit.

Do you honestly think he won't get more when he gains some of his weight back and returns to form?

Remains to be seen.

Personally, I don't want Reef to move on. I like the Kings and think this team can work - with Shareef. My belief is that we've made assumptions on the talent that was here before Shareef and make decisions around them.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Personally, I don't want Reef to move on. I like the Kings and think this team can work - with Shareef.

It shows.

 

[playmaker0017]

It shows.

Heh.

I like the Kings, you all LOVE the Kings.

I LOVE watching Reef, you all don't.

I probably wouldn't watch the NBA if Reef wasn't in the league. I just get enjoyment from watching him and it's a way for my cousin and I to bond. He's our boy and we get a kick out of rooting for him.

So, I get frustrated when he doesn't start.

 

[thesanityannex]

Playmaker-

It sounds as if you'd rather see Reef start, then have the Kings win.

Is this so?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

playmaker0017 doesn't appear to believe that the Kings can win if Abdur-Rahim doesn't start...

 

[thesanityannex]

playmaker0017 doesn't appear to believe that the Kings can win if Abdur-Rahim doesn't start...

That is odd. Considering all the stats he throws out there, one would think he would see the stats over the last ten games. You know, the only meaningful stat. 7-3.

 

[bigbadred00]

Playmaker-

It sounds as if you'd rather see Reef start, then have the Kings win.

Is this so?

Yes.

Obviously. Kings >> I

 

[playmaker0017]

It sounds as if you'd rather see Reef start, then have the Kings win.

Is this so?

No.

I don't think Reef starting causes the team to lose. KT deciding to play like a scrub might - but if that's the case ... do you cater to that?

Personally, I think Reef starting is the best thing for the team. Reef is a better offensive player and a better defensive player than Thomas. They are about even on the boards with a slight edge to Thomas. But, I don't think Thomas' 1-2 extra boards helps us out when he gives his man an extra 6-8 points.

The only detriment is Thomas acting like a spazoid.

So, it seems like the only selfish one in the equation is Kenny Thomas. He cares more about himself than he does the team.

Let me ask this:

What message does it send to the team to cater to KT? You get a guy who's been playing hard all year. Playing injured all year. From the very beginning he's said he'll do what's necessary for the team. Get's a broken jaw and comes back early to help the team out. In an action that was selfless, gets rewarded with being sent to the bench.

So the message you send is that if you are a team player, work hard no matter the situation and play through an injury ... you lose your spot. For not being a selfish player, you are rewarded with pine time.

I say that the big thing is how they are going to treat Bonzi. If they place him on the bench and continue to start Martin, then I'll say the coach isn't full of crud and at least treats everyone the same.

To me - Martin has brought more than KT to our team over this span. He's been the key factor, outside of Artest, in my opinion.

So, if Bonzi comes back and is given his starting role --- then the coach is full of it and anyone that agrees with the move is full of it. It's saying one thing is right for one player and not for another. Basically, it says he's a spineless coward and is doing it to avoid contraversy.

 

[playmaker0017]

That is odd. Considering all the stats he throws out there, one would think he would see the stats over the last ten games. You know, the only meaningful stat. 7-3.

No, I think the Kings can win without Reef. They did it in the past just fine.

But, I think Reef in the lineup the w/l record might be 8-2 or 9-1.

We haven't really played anyone over those 10 games, either.

Can KT hold his own against Duncan? Amare? Garnett?

Do you honestly believe that with KT in the lineup were a better defensive team? Is he better at any facet of the game than Reef? Rebounding .... maybe.

 

[VF21]

No.

I don't think Reef starting causes the team to lose. KT deciding to play like a scrub might - but if that's the case ... do you cater to that?

Personally, I think Reef starting is the best thing for the team. Reef is a better offensive player and a better defensive player than Thomas. They are about even on the boards with a slight edge to Thomas. But, I don't think Thomas' 1-2 extra boards helps us out when he gives his man an extra 6-8 points.

The only detriment is Thomas acting like a spazoid.

So, it seems like the only selfish one in the equation is Kenny Thomas. He cares more about himself than he does the team.

Let me ask this:

What message does it send to the team to cater to KT? You get a guy who's been playing hard all year. Playing injured all year. From the very beginning he's said he'll do what's necessary for the team. Get's a broken jaw and comes back early to help the team out. In an action that was selfless, gets rewarded with being sent to the bench.

So the message you send is that if you are a team player, work hard no matter the situation and play through an injury ... you lose your spot. For not being a selfish player, you are rewarded with pine time.

I say that the big thing is how they are going to treat Bonzi. If they place him on the bench and continue to start Martin, then I'll say the coach isn't full of crud and at least treats everyone the same.

To me - Martin has brought more than KT to our team over this span. He's been the key factor, outside of Artest, in my opinion.

So, if Bonzi comes back and is given his starting role --- then the coach is full of it and anyone that agrees with the move is full of it. It's saying one thing is right for one player and not for another. Basically, it says he's a spineless coward and is doing it to avoid contraversy.

I don't care who you are or who you're related to...

There is NO need for the insults and the name-calling. It stops RIGHT NOW!

 

[thesanityannex]

Playmaker-

You always insist on Reef getting more shots and becoming the focal point of the offense. How hard is it to realize that Reef doesn't get these opportunities when he plays with the starting unit? Reef coming off the bench is option #1. Reef starting is option #3/4. Thomas seems fine with being option #4, or even #5. This rotations works out perfectly. Reef gets his desired amount of shots, and Thomas does the dirty work with the starters. Consider Thomas the starting sixth man if that makes you happy.


Until Reef himself comes on this board and states that he wants to start or be traded, why don't you give it a rest.

 

[thesanityannex]

So, if Bonzi comes back and is given his starting role --- then the coach is full of it and anyone that agrees with the move is full of it. It's saying one thing is right for one player and not for another. Basically, it says he's a spineless coward and is doing it to avoid contraversy.

Or.................it shows that Bonzi is one of the top players at his position, and Reef is not.

 

[playmaker0017]

I don't care who you are or who you're related to...

There is NO need for the insults and the name-calling. It stops RIGHT NOW!

Ummm ... what name calling?

 

[playmaker0017]

Or.................it shows that Bonzi is one of the top players at his position, and Reef is not.

That, my friend, was funny!

A+ stuff!

 

[bigbadred00]

No.

I don't think Reef starting causes the team to lose. KT deciding to play like a scrub might - but if that's the case ... do you cater to that?

Personally, I think Reef starting is the best thing for the team. Reef is a better offensive player and a better defensive player than Thomas. They are about even on the boards with a slight edge to Thomas. But, I don't think Thomas' 1-2 extra boards helps us out when he gives his man an extra 6-8 points.

The only detriment is Thomas acting like a spazoid.

So, it seems like the only selfish one in the equation is Kenny Thomas. He cares more about himself than he does the team.

Let me ask this:

What message does it send to the team to cater to KT? You get a guy who's been playing hard all year. Playing injured all year. From the very beginning he's said he'll do what's necessary for the team. Get's a broken jaw and comes back early to help the team out. In an action that was selfless, gets rewarded with being sent to the bench.

So the message you send is that if you are a team player, work hard no matter the situation and play through an injury ... you lose your spot. For not being a selfish player, you are rewarded with pine time.

I say that the big thing is how they are going to treat Bonzi. If they place him on the bench and continue to start Martin, then I'll say the coach isn't full of crud and at least treats everyone the same.

To me - Martin has brought more than KT to our team over this span. He's been the key factor, outside of Artest, in my opinion.

So, if Bonzi comes back and is given his starting role --- then the coach is full of it and anyone that agrees with the move is full of it. It's saying one thing is right for one player and not for another. Basically, it says he's a spineless coward and is doing it to avoid contraversy.

There you go.

 

[playmaker0017]

You always insist on Reef getting more shots and becoming the focal point of the offense. How hard is it to realize that Reef doesn't get these opportunities when he plays with the starting unit?

And I ask why not?

To me - that's a bad coaching decision. He's far and away the best post player we have and is the only one capable of averaging 20+ PPG on 15 shots.

I've never advocated he be an 18 shot guy. I don't think this team has that type of player. I think he and Artest should both be at 15-16 shots and Bibby right near them at 14-15. The rest should just get opportunities as the time comes.

The scorers on this team are really Reef and Bibby. Artest is just talented and you want to keep him happy and interested. But, Bibby is the best deep threat and Reef is the best pure scorer.

Reef coming off the bench is option #1.

I haven't really seen that.

Until Reef himself comes on this board and states that he wants to start or be traded, why don't you give it a rest.

Why not admit that what I'm saying MIGHT have some merit?

I mean, really, I fail to see how anyone can argue that he's not the most efficient scorer we have and been completely underutilized.

 

[playmaker0017]

There you go.

That's not name-calling - it's stating an opinion.

It's not like I called him a doodie-head. I said I think he's a coward and stated what was cowardly.

That's not namecalling.

It's like saying X is Y because of Z. It's no more namecalling than most of the stuff that goes on here. I mean, I can go through every post and find where people say the same type of thing with no repercussions.

That's a statement of opinion and I gave the reasons why. Again, I didn't call him a fartknocker or a goober-doodie-face or some jerky name. It was a statement of fact.

 

[VF21]

Ummm ... what name calling?

Well, THIS time I'm referring to:

Basically, it says he's a spineless coward and is doing it to avoid contraversy.

Don't you realize that your extreme Reef homerism is actually turning Kings fans against Shareef?

If you'd just tone it down and quit acting like you won't accept anything less than total worshipping at his feet by those of us who have been Kings fans and will be Kings fans once these current players have long since retired, things would be a lot more copacetic.

We really don't need a daily litany of "Today's reason why SAR should be ..." (starting, the first option, the team leader, God)

I'd much rather read about the improvement the TEAM is showing and the chances we may still have for a playoff appearance, which is something I believe SAR has never experienced.

We've had this discussion before however, and it never seems to change how you respond to any kind of criticism about SAR, or any thread that dares to put someone/anyone above him. We'll simply have to agree to disagree...again.

In all honesty, I like SAR. What I don't like is someone disrespecting the rights of the people on this forum NOT to like him as well as he does.

 

[VF21]

That's not name-calling - it's stating an opinion.

It's not like I called him a doodie-head. I said I think he's a coward and stated what was cowardly.

That's not namecalling.

It's like saying X is Y because of Z. It's no more namecalling than most of the stuff that goes on here. I mean, I can go through every post and find where people say the same type of thing with no repercussions.

That's a statement of opinion and I gave the reasons why. Again, I didn't call him a fartknocker or a goober-doodie-face or some jerky name. It was a statement of fact.

Wrong.

It's name-calling as pretty much defined on this forum. So, all your dialog aside, knock it off.

I'm serious. This isn't a topic for debate.

 

[thesanityannex]

That, my friend, was funny!

A+ stuff!

Offensively, yes, my comment would be funny. But thats not what I was talking about. Top player for the Kings needs to be more specific. The Kings need his rebounding/hustling/defending/attitude. Kevin brings different aspects, but is no where near Bonzi's level, yet. SAR and Thomas are nearly identical in what they bring. Neither is a superstar and neither sucks. It really wouldn't matter who started if you looked at stats alone. But stats don't win games. Chemistry does. It is so obvious Thomas performs better as a starter, and I don't see how you can overlook this. Reef has not struggled coming off the bench. And the only complaining I've heard is from you.

Again. Until Reef himself comes on this board and complains about not starting, why don't you give it a rest?