Voisin: After probe, we all wonder

[uolj]

I remember itthe same way. The Christie face foul was in the second quarter of game 1. I was there. So you are not losing it. And there was no foul call on Bibby's face. You are right.

Thanks. I'll cling to this post for decades.

 

[fnordius]

Rather than trust my memory, I'm going to post a snippet from an ESPN article published a few days after the fact.

There is nothing I can say that will explain 27 free throws for the Lakers in the fourth quarter -- an amount staggering in its volume and impact on the game. It gave me pause. How can you explain it? How can you explain a game where Scot Pollard fouls out when he's two feet from Shaquille O'Neal, or that Doug Christie is called for a ridiculous touch foul just as Chris Webber spikes Kobe Bryant's drive to the hoop, or that Mike Bibby is called for a foul deep in the fourth quarter after Bryant pops him in the nose with an elbow?
[.....]
After Game 6, I went out to dinner in L.A. with a couple of sportswriters and three or four other folks who aren't in the business. Each one of us at the table had a college degree. None of us had a dog in this Lakers-Kings fight. But us Sports Guys wanted to see if we were overreacting. So we asked the woman with the business degree who has season tickets to an NBA team (not the Lakers, not the Kings) what her immediate reaction was after watching Friday.

"They stole the game from the Kings," she said, matter of factly.

The next morning, I call for a bellman for help with the bags. The door is open five seconds when he says, and I'm paraphrasing here because I don't generally quote bellmen, "What was up with that game last night? I mean, I'm a Laker fan, so I appreciate the calls. But I don't want to win that way. It was like Chris Webber was saying, 'I can't win, so why should I play hard?' "

Which, if the bellman had been in the Kings' locker room on Friday, was exactly the demeanor he would have seen from Webber. His lip was literally quivering, he was so angry. He spoke in guarded tones about how "we're still the Sacramento Kings" and how he had been told it would be impossible to beat the Lakers Friday. "I was warned," he muttered.

-- David Aldridge, ESPN

 

[vladetomiller]

Did You watch game 6 ???

All those numbers and stats mean nothing. They can't explain what I have seen.

And after game 5 P.J. said somwhere - "we will be back (@ARCO) for game 7"

I always wondered how he new

Rasheed Wallace has claimed a few times that the series would be over or they would win etc etc as a piston and has always been right. Did he know something more than the rest of us regarding the outcome of a game before it happened.

I watched game 6 and I agree that it was a game where the calls went in the lakers favour most of the game and the fourth quarter there was a concerted effort to start the game in the lakers favour and they put the lakers in FT shooting mode within seconds into the quarter. A standout sequence was vlade getting his fourth foul, pollard comes in, leans on Shaq and gets his foul and then pushes him a bit off the block and then the next foul. Three fouls on the kings centers in one posession i think. So yeah I watched that game.

But what is interesting is that the kings fans are so posessed about that one game, lakers fans are possessed about one game in game 5 and both sides are not willing to look at the other games to see how the series went. Lakers fans are not that very vocal about game 5 since they won the series and didnt matter what happened in game 5 but if they had lost i am sure we will be talking more about game 5 than game 6 now.

As I pointed out in the stats, Game 5 Shaq takes 18 shot attempts and had only one FT attempt, for a guy who plays in the post dont you think its abnormal.

You could take a kings fan point of view and say that he was not aggressive enough or give whatever reason you can but I am trying to see that objectively. I would expect atleast 5 or 6 FT attempts for a post player on a 18 FG attempt game.

Since there are many basketball experts here, the clip also being on you tube, as much as that shot by bibby was great in game 5, was that a moving screen set by webber. Did the ball go off webbers knees before that shot opportunity arose.

 

[piksi]

Rasheed Wallace has claimed a few times that the series would be over or they would win etc etc as a piston and has always been right. Did he know something more than the rest of us regarding the outcome of a game before it happened.

I watched game 6 and I agree that it was a game where the calls went in the lakers favour most of the game and the fourth quarter there was a concerted effort to start the game in the lakers favour and they put the lakers in FT shooting mode within seconds into the quarter. A standout sequence was vlade getting his fourth foul, pollard comes in, leans on Shaq and gets his foul and then pushes him a bit off the block and then the next foul. Three fouls on the kings centers in one posession i think. So yeah I watched that game.

But what is interesting is that the kings fans are so posessed about that one game, lakers fans are possessed about one game in game 5 and both sides are not willing to look at the other games to see how the series went. Lakers fans are not that very vocal about game 5 since they won the series and didnt matter what happened in game 5 but if they had lost i am sure we will be talking more about game 5 than game 6 now.

As I pointed out in the stats, Game 5 Shaq takes 18 shot attempts and had only one FT attempt, for a guy who plays in the post dont you think its abnormal.

You could take a kings fan point of view and say that he was not aggressive enough or give whatever reason you can but I am trying to see that objectively. I would expect atleast 5 or 6 FT attempts for a post player on a 18 FG attempt game.

Since there are many basketball experts here, the clip also being on you tube, as much as that shot by bibby was great in game 5, was that a moving screen set by webber. Did the ball go off webbers knees before that shot opportunity arose.

Did Samakee Walker hit a three while everyone else except the refs was at the half time break ?

You can say whatever You want but there is a reason that NBA started using insant replay (Also B.D.).

Anyways - if idiots make a right call - Horry's three still isn't enough and Kings win game 4 and there is no robbery in game 6 because there would have not been game 6. Looks like Lakers have the best refs that money can buy.

 

[vladetomiller]

Ok got your take on this series

 

[Kingster]

Since there are many basketball experts here, the clip also being on you tube, as much as that shot by bibby was great in game 5, was that a moving screen set by webber. Did the ball go off webbers knees before that shot opportunity arose.

Yes, the ball did go off Webber.

 

[kupman]

Im sory folks but I have drawn the conclusion that my future as a Kings fan if not an NBA fan depends on never revisiting game 6 again... pointless, painfull and poisionous.

I am with you.....move on and never, ever think about it again. When you catch yourself thinking about it yell "STOP"......in your head - not aloud. These memories will cause nothing but pain. There is no point to it.

Also, the second you think we have it bad just think about the poor souls in Buffalo....both the Bills and Sabres.

 

[Arena Skeptic]

Other fun Tom Donaghy facts...

1) He was one of the referees at the game where Ron Artest lost it:

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-blog/t...purs-phoenix-suns-playoff-series-ar45013.html

2) At a game earlier this year, instead of making a three-second call on Andris Biedrins, he actually moved Biedrins out of the lane. Game went into OT, and the Warriors won by 2. The spread was 1.5 (this link also refers heavily to the 2002 Kings-Lakers game 6):

http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/kawa...-b-a-d-but-heres-how-it-could-get-much-worse/

I'm in the camp that the Kings got robbed in that game 6, and that there are more refs to be implicated here. I seriously doubt Tim Donaghy goes down alone. Donaghy even had a role in the Suns-Spurs series in this year's playoffs, where, in retrospect, the refs obviously made a bad call with their ejections.

Folks, this is no joke... The wrong team won in the 2002 WCF, and the wrong team won this year's championship, which means the credibility is all in question now. When I was watching the Tour de France on Wednesday and saw the way Michael Rasmussen finished, my thought was, "Wow, he's cheating." Luckily, his team fired him on the spot. I get the feeling now that David Stern waited way too long to do something here, and now the entire league has lost credibility. It's pretty sad.

How long has this been going on? When did they know about it? What do they plan to do about it?

I wish there was a controversy here, that it was my opinion against others, like it is on the arena issue, but unfortunately, it's not. There is near unanimity out there on this issue, that the league has lost credibility.

Shoot, I've been a 49er fan for decades, and even I used to question some of the calls they got. Is this problem pervaisive in ALL sports??

 

[bibbinator]

We're policing a culture in decline.

- The Wire, Season II

It ain't just sports, it's all over. What else do you expect from a culture with a heavy winner-take-all ethos?

Why be honest when it often leads to disrespect?

 

[tubiscus]

.

Shoot, I've been a 49er fan for decades, and even I used to question some of the calls they got. Is this problem pervaisive in ALL sports??

Did you forget the mystery "Holding" call on 4th and goal that stole SB XVIII from the Niners and gave it to the Redskins in the 83 NFC Championship Game? How about the TWO holding calls against them during the game winning drive in SBXXIII?

I'll agree, they got some bad calls that helped them, (Rice's fumble against the Packers comes to mind) but they also plenty go the other way. Is it still a "No Call" when the holder gets nailed with a snowball during a field goal attempt? That cost them a game in Denver, remember?

I've always believed that some players and referees bet the spread and try to manipulate it with mistakes or penalty calls. The infuriating thing as a KINGS fan is the NBA is the worst officiated game in the world. In 04-05 we got shafted twice in a row at home by a goaltending "no call" and then a goaltending call against us after the ball hit the backboard. Goaltending must be the "tuck" rule of the NBA, the Ref's don't seem to know the rule, or only use it to make spread "Corrections".

 

[VF21]

Ok got your take on this series

Yep, and we have yours.

You could take a kings fan point of view and say that he was not aggressive enough or give whatever reason you can but I am trying to see that objectively.

Sorry, but I call "bullbleep." Whenever the discussion involves the Lakers, you seem to take their side. It's not about objectivity. It's about trying to be a "fan" of both the Kings and the Lakers. It just doesn't work.

 

[Arena Skeptic]

Did you forget the mystery "Holding" call on 4th and goal that stole SB XVIII from the Niners and gave it to the Redskins in the 83 NFC Championship Game? How about the TWO holding calls against them during the game winning drive in SBXXIII?

I'll agree, they got some bad calls that helped them, (Rice's fumble against the Packers comes to mind) but they also plenty go the other way. Is it still a "No Call" when the holder gets nailed with a snowball during a field goal attempt? That cost them a game in Denver, remember?

I've always believed that some players and referees bet the spread and try to manipulate it with mistakes or penalty calls. The infuriating thing as a KINGS fan is the NBA is the worst officiated game in the world. In 04-05 we got shafted twice in a row at home by a goaltending "no call" and then a goaltending call against us after the ball hit the backboard. Goaltending must be the "tuck" rule of the NBA, the Ref's don't seem to know the rule, or only use it to make spread "Corrections".

As much as I hated those pass interference calls, with the rules in place at that time, they were the correct calls. I credit that game with getting the rules changed, so that passes had to be "catchable." Under the updated rules, those were not penalties. In a way, I'm glad they made those calls, because it served to illustrate very well how poorly conceived those rules were.

Same way with the ejections the Suns received. Hopefully, the league now understands better that rule needs to be changed, and they'll do it.

Has anyone looked at this youtube?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u4tFg6Sl1s

Watch in the key, how Biedrins is in for a good 5 seconds. Rather than blowing the whistle, Donaghy actually nudges Biedrins. It's really blatant.

 

[Ryle]

Has anyone looked at this youtube?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u4tFg6Sl1s

Watch in the key, how Biedrins is in for a good 5 seconds. Rather than blowing the whistle, Donaghy actually nudges Biedrins. It's really blatant.

Have no idea what Donaghy was doing but it seems pretty clear that Biedrins had already cleared the key when he pulled his arm.

Anyway, I thought the article from Aileen was ridiculous. Did she just have nothing else to write so she brought this up again???

 

[Ryle]

Have no idea what Donaghy was doing but it seems pretty clear that Biedrins had already cleared the key when he pulled his arm.

Anyway, I thought the article from Aileen was ridiculous. Did she just have nothing else to write so she brought this up again???

By the way....I have looked and looked and couldn't find it. Does the player have to have both feet outside the key or can they have one foot inside and one foot outside.

 

[KP]

27 free throws in 1 quarter... 27 free throws in one quarter... That's a 108 free throw a game pace

Scott 2 feet away from Shaq jumping out of the way with his hands in the air while being fouled out of the game... It's an image still seared in my mind.

Jackson, Kobe, Shaq and eventually even Stern with that smug look on their faces... what do you mean robbed?? Your all just a bunch of cry-babies... small town-mentality and all that.

Oh really, Mr. Stern?? How does your NBA referee evaluation process look now? How does the excuse hold water any more? It doesn't.

I will never get over.... what even LA media, and many of the rest of the country regard as maybe the "Worst Officiated Game in NBA History" hell who am I kidding there is no maybe about it.

In a closeout game? Are you serious? How anyone could compare that with any other game in that series in level of importance is beyond me.

Our team could not recover for the next game and hell, how can I blame them? It's been 5 years and I'm still not over it.

 

[JoMama]

This chump referee that got caught may be a pawn. This is an investigation of organized crime, and not just NBA referees! This deal involves a major, high-dollar, professional sports league. David Stern is viewed by a few fans, coaches, and players as an arrogant SOB.

There are a host of very good reasons why a legal team consisting of relatively young lawyers working for the Justice Department would want to pursue this indictment to the absolute fullest measure possible. Law careers area made on this sort of high-profile BS. I see unbridled motivation to hammer everyone in sight.

Look for this now infamous referee (sic, schmuck) to sing like a bird when the feds lean on him. They won't need jack bauer for this cupcake. He will be looking for a plea-bargain, and a new zipcode, within minutes. He may implicate other NBA schmucks. I don't think Dick Bavetta and the boys are out of the woods just yet. I suspect that David is sweating garlic-soaked dum-dums at this point. At the same time, scores of anonymous employees at the Justice Department are probably dancing around the water coolers.

Da Kings was robbed, and yous bums knows it.


Finally, the season just got interesting.

Good post, Quick Dog! Not sure we'll ever hear the real story. Yup, we wuz robbed. That game took something out of me forever. Painful.

 

[piksi]

27 free throws in 1 quarter... 27 free throws in one quarter... That's a 108 free throw a game pace

Scott 2 feet away from Shaq jumping out of the way with his hands in the air while being fouled out of the game... It's an image still seared in my mind.

Jackson, Kobe, Shaq and eventually even Stern with that smug look on their faces... what do you mean robbed?? Your all just a bunch of cry-babies... small town-mentality and all that.

Oh really, Mr. Stern?? How does your NBA referee evaluation process look now? How does the excuse hold water any more? It doesn't.

I will never get over.... what even LA media, and many of the rest of the country regard as maybe the "Worst Officiated Game in NBA History" hell who am I kidding there is no maybe about it.

In a closeout game? Are you serious? How anyone could compare that with any other game in that series in level of importance is beyond me.

Our team could not recover for the next game and hell, how can I blame them? It's been 5 years and I'm still not over it.

only 27 FTs. Felt like 50.

And 55 years from now - it will feel the same

 

[Kevin MartinFan]

I never really liked the whole idea of "oh well they shot 27 freethrows and we shot 10". There is nothing in the rule's that state both teams should shoot the same amount of freethrows. Looking at that game 6 though...definitely terrible calls every two seconds against us.

 

[vladetomiller]

Yep, and we have yours.



Sorry, but I call "bullbleep." Whenever the discussion involves the Lakers, you seem to take their side. It's not about objectivity. It's about trying to be a "fan" of both the Kings and the Lakers. It just doesn't work.

Wow you call that bull whatever, ok

I explained in my posts on this thread regarding game 6, I explained the 3 fouls on the centers in one posession which later on lead to them fouling out and webber checking shaq anyways. I have always maintained on this board that game 6 was totally in the lakers favour.

For that i dont see any response and that doesnt hurt your eyes, but when I talk about game 5, Shaq taking only one FT attempt, shaq fouling out, ball going off webbers knees for the last posession, possible moving screen by webber to clear derek fisher - then I become the laker fan who is only trying to point out problems in the kings win.

People talk about replays to verify samaki walkers three, shouldnt there be a replay rule to assess atleast posessions at end of games

Ok got your take on this as well

 

[BMiller52]

Wow you call that bull whatever, ok

I explained in my posts on this thread regarding game 6, I explained the 3 fouls on the centers in one posession which later on lead to them fouling out and webber checking shaq anyways. I have always maintained on this board that game 6 was totally in the lakers favour.

For that i dont see any response and that doesnt hurt your eyes, but when I talk about game 5, Shaq taking only one FT attempt, shaq fouling out, ball going off webbers knees for the last posession, possible moving screen by webber to clear derek fisher - then I become the laker fan who is only trying to point out problems in the kings win.

People talk about replays to verify samaki walkers three, shouldnt there be a replay rule to assess atleast posessions at end of games

Ok got your take on this as well

This proves Fisher flopped: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b-8sS1GplM

 

[quick dog]

Good post, Quick Dog! Not sure we'll ever hear the real story. Yup, we wuz robbed. That game took something out of me forever. Painful.

A more pleasant subject then.

We have some huge pork loins on the barbie. Hmmmmm

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

The Lakers needed to win that game to force a Game 7. What happened in Game 6 at Staples Center is Legend–Lakers shoot 27 free throws in the fourth quarter alone, Scot Pollard fouls out without touching Shaquille O’Neal or perhaps being in the same area code, Kobe Bryant slams Mike Bibby in the nose, producing blood, with Bibby getting called for the foul…

I mean, even before the Donaghy story broke, NBA fans all could recite the Game 6 weirdness from memory.

Also the result: Lakers win 106-102, go on to beat the Kings in Sac in Game 7, then go on to beat the Nets for their third straight NBA title, Kings never end up getting to the finals with that great roster, fall into despair forever.

When this story came up over the weekend–I was in Milwaukee, and it was talked about even there, though the Bucks haven’t played a significant basketball game since… 1975?–I immediately thought of Lakers-Kings Game 6 and so did several people I talked to.

It’s obvious. It’s the classic conspiracy game, and not just because Sacramento fans are particularly loud and whiny and have particularly loud voices.

In this instance, Kings fans had a case then, and REALLY have a case now, with the league’s referees under the microscope.

Just read this article...very interesting to see someone take our side in this...I have fellow Kings fans that tell me I really need to stop holding a grudge because of Kobe's elbow to Bibby's nose that was called a flagrant. It's nice to know that someone else in the world feels our pain(sort of)after we had our NBA Title snatched out of our hands with ONE call. Can you imagine what would have happened if we had won that game? Can you? Stern did, and he didnt like what he was imagining for some reason, and Game 6 will forever be remembered by Kings fans as probably the saddest feeling next to Ricky Berry's suicide(R.I.P.).

 

[piksi]

Let's say that the authorities keep shaking the tree and something falls out that would - I don't know - make this suspissions more valid.

Where would we go from there ?

 

[vladetomiller]

Just read this article...very interesting to see someone take our side in this...I have fellow Kings fans that tell me I really need to stop holding a grudge because of Kobe's elbow to Bibby's nose that was called a flagrant. It's nice to know that someone else in the world feels our pain(sort of)after we had our NBA Title snatched out of our hands with ONE call. Can you imagine what would have happened if we had won that game? Can you? Stern did, and he didnt like what he was imagining for some reason, and Game 6 will forever be remembered by Kings fans as probably the saddest feeling next to Ricky Berry's suicide(R.I.P.).

Which ONE Call are you talking about. As i understood it was more of the whole game itself.

 

[vladetomiller]

This proves Fisher flopped: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b-8sS1GplM

Yes, Fisher flopped big time instead of fighting through the screen or going over it.

But was that a moving screen, hand off and roll towards the basket you will knock the defender every time unless the defender is going over the screen. But the rules are that you cannot hand off and roll at the same time, the pick has to be stationary.

Thats two calls in a row, one where the ball should have been lakers since it went off webber and followed by a non call on a moving screen. Who knows what would have happened with few seconds to go and lakers having the lead and the posession. This was the same game where Shaq took only one FT all game long and fouled out.

 

[fnordius]

Which ONE Call are you talking about. As i understood it was more of the whole game itself.

I would agree, it wasn't one call in that game, sending the Lakers to the line 17 or 18 times in the last 6 minutes was what did it.

If I had to pick ONE play, it would be the 3-pointer that occurred during halftime in game 4. Without the provably wrong call there, Horry's lucky three at the buzzer would have left LA losing by 2, and there never would have been a Game 6.

 

[kupman]

A more pleasant subject then.

We have some huge pork loins on the barbie. Hmmmmm

I wanted to let you know that this got my attention and tonight I have huge pork loins on the barbie...I am salivating as I write this.

QUICK DOG WINS THE THREAD!!!

 

[vladetomiller]

I would agree, it wasn't one call in that game, sending the Lakers to the line 17 or 18 times in the last 6 minutes was what did it.

If I had to pick ONE play, it would be the 3-pointer that occurred during halftime in game 4. Without the provably wrong call there, Horry's lucky three at the buzzer would have left LA losing by 2, and there never would have been a Game 6.

Then the lakers fans can talk about the ball that went out of bounds of webber in the last seconds in game 5, if that posession was given to the lakers then maybe they win that game and you would still see game 6

 

[JoMama]

Had pork loin last night on the grill. Deeeelicious.