Vlade Divac - Kings GM AKA 21

[burekijogurt]

Captain, I really want to thank you for your thoughtful and sincere response. The prime directive here is often to keep long standing fights brewing and pointedly ask questions you don't want answered to essentially shout "Good day to you." I sincerely wanted to know what you were thinking and your response is helpful and interesting.

Man, I hope you are wrong. (Not just to be right, again violating prime directives.) Revenue sharing will help cash flow, but man, that would be brutal to again be a small market, cash strapped team, with a mercurial owner. That's a rough combination with TOUGH odds. I knew the Kings were nowhere near Paul Allen territory, but except for the handful of years the Maloofs were rich (on paper and before they over extended themselves) the Kings have been playing with a short deck.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article196522844.html

Here is the link to the Kings condo story. It's on top of the hotel next to the arena. The Kings / their development groups own the plaza, the condos, the mall, most of the block of K street next to the arena, and I think all of the next block down K street. This is good for the long term prospects for the team because they can make money outside the arena 365 days and have real estate equity.

Beyond the team someday becoming good, it should be great for the city because a dilapidated stretch of downtown would have a master plan backed by one well financed group.

The condos and mall are over a year behind their proposed completion dates and payment disputes with many of the condo / hotel contractors landed in court. And there are, of course, narratives to explain this all as normal -- payment disputes for contractors are normal, aggressive initial timelines, wet 2017, ect. But, they allegedly asked over 20 contractors to take the same 10% pay cut and it behooved the Kings to open as much of DoCo and the mall as quickly as possible to the opening of Golden One. As quickly as possible, you want to your fans to become used to spending their dollars in your team owned or leased buildings on event nights. Quickly as possible is very relative in real estate development, particularly many blocks down downtown, but still. One way to keep that on goal, is to push more labor at the projects that fall behind. That did not happen here. In fact, the contrary allegedly happened.

I just happened to listen an interview Vivek gave to Bloomberg TV yesterday (2/16/2018) in which he talks about the new arena and economic
benefits it has brought to downtown so I looked it up after reading your and !'s posts. The interview is 5 minutes long but the economic impact part is around the start of minute 3. Not from Sacramento so I don't know if this is true, but Vivek claimed billion $ impact to local economy and thousands of jobs. he said "downtown is popping" now. maybe you will find it interesting: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/vide...e-says-new-arena-exceeding-expectations-video

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Vlade is the GM. You can’t blame Joeger for Vlade’s mistakes.

A coach and a GM should operate in sync. If a coach says go get my guy, yes, the GM should makw an effort to do it. And the GM doesn't dictate the rotations in the game if he has any faith in his coach.

 

[Blob]

After marinating on the deadline deals, I conclude Joerger is Puppet Master and he has #21 on strings.

Papa G was the prized Euro discarded like yesterdays trash per coach mandate. In many circumstances such a mandate would be denied.

The red flags were there with the 20 year old. But the white flag was arguably waived too soon.

There's a power dynamic that leaves the GM conciliatory and coach brazen before unjustified confidence and cloying smugness guides his nature.

Think about this, Kings fans.

What is the difference between the coach and GM in a grand sense?

The coach has had modest success, admittedly, with 50 win teams in Memphis and D-League championships.

What has Vlade done by contrast as a GM? Basically nothing. He's pretty much a laughingstock around the league for his questionable work ethic, phone phobia and naivety of the cap and more bumbling maneuvers.

No matter what you think about Vlade its hard to deny there's some substance to the criticism levied against him.

For goodness sakes, he has an adversity to speaking on the phone and by deduction probably the worst relationships with colleagues around the league.

Not that they are necessarily bad. It is more like they are nonexistent.

How is this conducive to capitalizing on opportunities when they arise? He doesn't have to be a social butterfly. But there is a requisite amount of social savvy before the ability to negotiate is needed.

This performance flaw is an open secret inside and outside the organization that weighs into the pertinent decisions that will shape the future direction of this franchise.

Vlade thought the job would be easy. He thought he would roll into town and clean up the mess in one fell swoop and offseason. He thought he was the white knight to save the day. He thought he would create cap space and surround Boogie with vets and it would be turbo speed to the Promised Land. He thought he would pay Busted Achilles Wes Matthews a max deal because "injuries are part of the game".

This is the quality and depth of his thought process.

He choose Buddy and protected #1 from the Pels over Ingram (and Randle or Russell) when he had Boggy in his back pocket.

Think about that one, Kings fans.

Credit is due for identifying Boggy as a player.

But you complement him with Ingram NOT Buddy!

There are a lot of fans talking about his bad decisions. This one goes to near the top of my list. Ingram is flourishing as lead ball handler for Lakers. He is far more dynamic and potent player than Lonzo Bust. If Ingram develops a shot he is an All-Star. This is not hindsight. Ingram was a player higher on my list than Buddy. And fans know I love me some Buddy Buckets! I take Ingram and Randle over what we settled for too readily one week before the trade deadline.

Going back further in history of misadventures, Vlade thought an unprotected 2019 draft pick he gifted to Philly would be insignificant because we would be a top playoff team by then. He thought the swap rights would be irrelevant since certainly we would better than Philly. Recently I read on this forum the swaps were meaningless. The person who made this comment failed to realize the 2017 swap right was exercised!

In fairness it has not been all bad. I do NOT give him credit for drafting De'Aaron. That was a call anyone could have made. #10 was where his prudence and foresight was tested. Again getting Boggy looks like a coup, his saving grace so far. Mason came endorsed highly by Bobby Jackson. Giles is his high risk high reward bet when Donovan was on the board at #10. He passed on a future star because he thought he had identified another.

If he misses on Giles, he should be fired. Is it possible the decision to postpone Giles debut was to buy the GM more time? The delayed promise of potential buys you more time than the present reality of another bad pick.

Regardless we can stumble our way to playoff status with a "drunken captain" guiding the ship. And this leads me to my main point:

The drunk captain is open to suggestion. He is amenable to defer responsibility under the guise of authority. He delegated negotiating power to his assistant GM after all. The article by Woj was corroborated by sources from two teams.

Read between the lines and fairly conclude there is a disparate track record and lopsided power dynamic between the two primary decision makers.

Vlade is flailing with his two 2016 1st round picks sent to the NBA scrap heap. (Albeit that was a terrible draft, but you would like to still have players on your roster with a fighting chance to amount to something, not relished to inconsequence so soon). His major free agent signing was dumped for cap space in half of a season while Joerger resides smugly in his past accomplishment and extended deal. He rationalizes the ineptitude of this years squad to inexperience not any shortcoming of his own.

When free agency rolls around this summer, what the coach wants the coach is going to get. At least every effort will be made to accommodate the decision maker with higher status. What does the coach want? He wants toughness. He wants ground and pound. He wants Z-Bo 2.0. He wants Julius Randle.

This is not a bad idea. In fact, it is a good idea. Randle is the athlete that Z-Bo never was with the force to match and superior efficiency. Aaron Gordon is a good idea too as he would provide spacing that Randle and our current frontline players do not provide.

Would Vlade come to the conclusion that Randle is a better free agent target than Gordon on his own? Perhaps, but I don't think it matters.

Vlade is NOT in good standing no matter what deceptive picture he wants to paint or false narrative he wants to promote. His confidence is shaken. His judgment is tenuous. He needs a lifeline. He needs a helping hand. He needs a coach with an arrogant self-regard and explicit directive.

Then if and when all goes to hell, and he is unceremoniously dismissed, he will have someone to blame besides himself.

 

[John Galt]

After marinating on the deadline deals, I conclude Joerger is Puppet Master and he has #21 on strings.

Papa G was the prized Euro discarded like yesterdays trash per coach mandate. In many circumstances such a mandate would be denied.

The red flags were there with the 20 year old. But the white flag was arguably waived too soon.

There's a power dynamic that leaves the GM conciliatory and coach brazen before unjustified confidence and cloying smugness guides his nature.

Think about this, Kings fans.

What is the difference between the coach and GM in a grand sense?

The coach has had modest success, admittedly, with 50 win teams in Memphis and D-League championships.

What has Vlade done by contrast as a GM? Basically nothing. He's pretty much a laughingstock around the league for his questionable work ethic, phone phobia and naivety of the cap and more bumbling maneuvers.

Not matter what you think about Vlade its hard to deny there's some substance to the criticism levied against him.

For goodness sakes, he has an adversity to speaking on the phone and by deduction probably the worst relationships with colleagues around the league.

Not that they are necessarily bad. It is more like they are nonexistent.

How is this conducive to capitalizing on opportunities when they arise? He doesn't have to a social butterfly. But there is a requisite amount of social savvy before the ability to negotiate is needed.

This performance flaw is an open secret inside and outside the organization that weighs into the pertinent decisions that will shape the future direction of this franchise.

Vlade thought the job would be easy. He thought he would roll into town and clean up the mess in one fell swoop and offseason. He thought he was the white knight to save the day. He thought he would create cap space and surround Boogie with vets and it would be turbo speed to the Promised Land. He thought he would pay Busted Achilles Wes Matthews a max deal because "injuries are part of the game".

This is the quality and depth of his thought process.

He choose Buddy and protected #1 from the Pels over Ingram (and Randle or Russell) when he had Boggy in his back pocket.

Think about that one, Kings fans.

Credit is due for identifying Boggy as a player.

But you complement him with Ingram NOT Buddy!

There are a lot of fans talking about his bad decisions. This one goes to near the top of my list. Ingram is flourishing as lead ball handler for Lakers. He is far more dynamic and potent player than Lonzo Bust. If Ingram develops a shot he is an All-Star. this is not hindsight. Ingram was a player higher on my list than Buddy. And fans know I love me some Buddy Buckets! I take Ingram and Randle over what we settled for too readily one week before the trade deadline.

Going back further in history of misadventures Vlade thought an unprotected 2019 draft pick he gifted to Philly would be insignificant because we would a top playoff team by then. He thought the swap rights would be irrelevant since certainly we would better than Philly. Recently I read on this forum the swaps were meaningless. The person who made this comment failed to realize it would seem the 2017 swap right was exercised!

In fairness it has not been all bad. I do NOT give him credit for drafting De'Aaron. That was a call anyone could have made. #10 was where his prudence and foresight was tested. Again getting Boggy looks like a coup, his saving grace so far. Mason came endorsed highly by Bobby Jackson. Giles is his high risk high reward bet when Donovan was on the board at #10. He passed on a future star because he thought he had identified another.

If he misses on Giles, he should be fired. Is it possible the decision to postpone Giles debut was to buy the GM more time? The promise of potential buys you more time than the reality of another bad pick.

Regardless we can stumble our way to playoff status with a "drunken captain" guiding the ship. And this leads me to my main point. The drunk captain is open to suggestion. He is amenable to defer responsibility under the guise of authority. He delegated negotiating power to his assistant GM after all. The article by Woj was corroborated by sources from two teams.

Read between the lines and conclude there is a disparate track record and power dynamic between the two primary decision makers. Vlade is flailing with his two 2016 1st round picks sent to the NBA scrap heap. (Albeit that was a terrible draft, but you would like to still have players on your roster with a fighting chance to amount to something not relished to inconsequence so soon). His major free agent signing dumped for cap space while Joerger is smug in his past accomplishment. He rationalizes the ineptitude of this years squad to inexperience not any shortcoming of his own.

When free agency rolls around this summer, what the coach wants the coach is going to get. At least every effort will be made to accommodate the decision maker with higher status. What does the coach want? He wants toughness. He wants Z-Bo 2.0. He wants Julius Randle.

This is not a bad idea. In fact, it is a good idea Randle is the athlete that Z-Bo never was with the force to match. Aaron Gordon is a good idea too as he would provide spacing that Randle and our current frontline players do not provide.

Would Vlade come to the conclusion that Randle is a better free agent target than Gordon on his own? Perhaps, but I don't think it matters. Vlade is NOT in good standing no matter what picture he wants paint and false narrative he wants to promote. His confidence is shaken. His judgment is scattershot. He needs a lifeline. He needs a helping hand. He needs a coach with arrogant self-regard.

Then if all goes to hell in a handbasket and he is unceremoniously dismissed, he will have someone to blame besides himself.

for someone to dislike Vlade so much as to write all that prose in assault mode (line 4 is particularly lyrical)... but really for somebody to harbor so much contempt for a guy as two develop ALL THAT... heck maybe Vlade really IS that bad.

one thing for sure... you've really really really got a lot of contempt for Vlade Divac. Maybe he's as bad and stupid and evil as you make him out to be.. I guess. I hope something happens with the Kings to turn you more positive because you really do have a magnificent vocab.

 

[Blob]

for someone to dislike Vlade so much as to write all that prose in assault mode (line 4 is particularly lyrical)... but really for somebody to harbor so much contempt for a guy as two develop ALL THAT... heck maybe Vlade really IS that bad.

one thing for sure... you've really really really got a lot of contempt for Vlade Divac. Maybe he's as bad and stupid and evil as you make him out to be.. I guess. I hope something happens with the Kings to turn you more positive because you really do have a magnificent vocab.

I don't have contempt for Vlade. I hope he succeeds.

Note: Reasonably objective criticism is not contempt. If you would like to contend that my criticism is not reasonable nor objective, be my guest.

I didn't mention it above but I do respect Vlade for having the guts to pull the plug on Boogie, and said so more than once.

It took courage to admit it wasn't working and reverse course after trying to make it work for a couple of years.

I respect that, I just take issue with what we got in return and how that whole situation was managed. It was Amateur Hour.

Saying so is not me having contempt for the guy, it is calling like it is.

 

[AleksandarN]

Yeah thats logic but not solid logic. Doing that trade to add couple of average veterans and hoping to be in competition for 8th seed was stupid.

Better than trying to build with the roster that Vlade was handcuffed with

 

[AleksandarN]

He choose Buddy and protected #1 from the Pels over Ingram (and Randle or Russell) when he had Boggy in his back pocket.

Think about that one, Kings fans.

Credit is due for identifying Boggy as a player.

But you complement him with Ingram NOT Buddy!

There are a lot of fans talking about his bad decisions. This one goes to near the top of my list. Ingram is flourishing as lead ball handler for Lakers. He is far more dynamic and potent player than Lonzo Bust. If Ingram develops a shot he is an All-Star. this is not hindsight. Ingram was a player higher on my list than Buddy. And fans know I love me some Buddy Buckets! I take Ingram and Randle over what we settled for too readily one week before the trade deadline.

.

Where the heck did you get that from? As a matter of fact that was one of the reasons Mitch doesn't have the GM job with the Lakers anymore. Is your blind hatred of Vlade made you make up things that never happened. Lakers refused to give up Ingram in a Cousins deal. What are you even talking about?

 

[burekijogurt]

Vivek weighs in: http://www.sacbee.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/ailene-voisin/article200865784.html

 

[John Galt]

If you would like to contend that my criticism is not reasonable nor objective, be my guest.

I thusly contend.

"He's pretty much a laughingstock around the league for his questionable work ethic" (character assassination)
"he has an adversity to speaking on the phone and by deduction probably the worst relationships with colleagues around the league." (guesswork)
"Vlade thought the job would be easy. He thought he would roll into town and clean up the mess in one fell swoop and offseason. He thought he was the white knight to save the day." (character assassination)
"He choose Buddy and protected #1 from the Pels over Ingram" (did not)
"Recently I read on this forum the swaps were meaningless. The person who made this comment failed to realize the 2017 swap right was exercised!"(Jason Tatum was taken #3 and everybody I know was relieved because we wanted Fox at almost any spot but 1)
"Is it possible the decision to postpone Giles debut was to buy the GM more time? The delayed promise of potential buys you more time than the present reality of another bad pick." (character assassination)
"Regardless we can stumble our way to playoff status with a "drunken captain" guiding the ship." (drunken?? wtf?)
"...while Joerger resides smugly in his past accomplishment and extended deal." (same assassination - different character)
"Vlade is NOT in good standing no matter what deceptive picture he wants to paint or false narrative he wants to promote. His confidence is shaken. His judgment is tenuous. He needs a lifeline. He needs a helping hand. He needs a coach with an arrogant self-regard and explicit directive.Then if and when all goes to hell, and he is unceremoniously dismissed, he will have someone to blame besides himself." (ok this one is clearly just straight objective fact - my bad)

 

[King Baller]

After marinating on the deadline deals, I conclude Joerger is Puppet Master and he has #21 on strings.

Papa G was the prized Euro discarded like yesterdays trash per coach mandate. In many circumstances such a mandate would be denied.

The red flags were there with the 20 year old. But the white flag was arguably waived too soon.

There's a power dynamic that leaves the GM conciliatory and coach brazen before unjustified confidence and cloying smugness guides his nature.

Think about this, Kings fans.

What is the difference between the coach and GM in a grand sense?

The coach has had modest success, admittedly, with 50 win teams in Memphis and D-League championships.

What has Vlade done by contrast as a GM? Basically nothing. He's pretty much a laughingstock around the league for his questionable work ethic, phone phobia and naivety of the cap and more bumbling maneuvers.

No matter what you think about Vlade its hard to deny there's some substance to the criticism levied against him.

For goodness sakes, he has an adversity to speaking on the phone and by deduction probably the worst relationships with colleagues around the league.

Not that they are necessarily bad. It is more like they are nonexistent.

How is this conducive to capitalizing on opportunities when they arise? He doesn't have to be a social butterfly. But there is a requisite amount of social savvy before the ability to negotiate is needed.

This performance flaw is an open secret inside and outside the organization that weighs into the pertinent decisions that will shape the future direction of this franchise.

Vlade thought the job would be easy. He thought he would roll into town and clean up the mess in one fell swoop and offseason. He thought he was the white knight to save the day. He thought he would create cap space and surround Boogie with vets and it would be turbo speed to the Promised Land. He thought he would pay Busted Achilles Wes Matthews a max deal because "injuries are part of the game".

This is the quality and depth of his thought process.

He choose Buddy and protected #1 from the Pels over Ingram (and Randle or Russell) when he had Boggy in his back pocket.

Think about that one, Kings fans.

Credit is due for identifying Boggy as a player.

But you complement him with Ingram NOT Buddy!

There are a lot of fans talking about his bad decisions. This one goes to near the top of my list. Ingram is flourishing as lead ball handler for Lakers. He is far more dynamic and potent player than Lonzo Bust. If Ingram develops a shot he is an All-Star. This is not hindsight. Ingram was a player higher on my list than Buddy. And fans know I love me some Buddy Buckets! I take Ingram and Randle over what we settled for too readily one week before the trade deadline.

Going back further in history of misadventures, Vlade thought an unprotected 2019 draft pick he gifted to Philly would be insignificant because we would be a top playoff team by then. He thought the swap rights would be irrelevant since certainly we would better than Philly. Recently I read on this forum the swaps were meaningless. The person who made this comment failed to realize the 2017 swap right was exercised!

In fairness it has not been all bad. I do NOT give him credit for drafting De'Aaron. That was a call anyone could have made. #10 was where his prudence and foresight was tested. Again getting Boggy looks like a coup, his saving grace so far. Mason came endorsed highly by Bobby Jackson. Giles is his high risk high reward bet when Donovan was on the board at #10. He passed on a future star because he thought he had identified another.

If he misses on Giles, he should be fired. Is it possible the decision to postpone Giles debut was to buy the GM more time? The delayed promise of potential buys you more time than the present reality of another bad pick.

Regardless we can stumble our way to playoff status with a "drunken captain" guiding the ship. And this leads me to my main point:

The drunk captain is open to suggestion. He is amenable to defer responsibility under the guise of authority. He delegated negotiating power to his assistant GM after all. The article by Woj was corroborated by sources from two teams.

Read between the lines and fairly conclude there is a disparate track record and lopsided power dynamic between the two primary decision makers.

Vlade is flailing with his two 2016 1st round picks sent to the NBA scrap heap. (Albeit that was a terrible draft, but you would like to still have players on your roster with a fighting chance to amount to something, not relished to inconsequence so soon). His major free agent signing was dumped for cap space in half of a season while Joerger resides smugly in his past accomplishment and extended deal. He rationalizes the ineptitude of this years squad to inexperience not any shortcoming of his own.

When free agency rolls around this summer, what the coach wants the coach is going to get. At least every effort will be made to accommodate the decision maker with higher status. What does the coach want? He wants toughness. He wants ground and pound. He wants Z-Bo 2.0. He wants Julius Randle.

This is not a bad idea. In fact, it is a good idea. Randle is the athlete that Z-Bo never was with the force to match and superior efficiency. Aaron Gordon is a good idea too as he would provide spacing that Randle and our current frontline players do not provide.

Would Vlade come to the conclusion that Randle is a better free agent target than Gordon on his own? Perhaps, but I don't think it matters.

Vlade is NOT in good standing no matter what deceptive picture he wants to paint or false narrative he wants to promote. His confidence is shaken. His judgment is tenuous. He needs a lifeline. He needs a helping hand. He needs a coach with an arrogant self-regard and explicit directive.

Then if and when all goes to hell, and he is unceremoniously dismissed, he will have someone to blame besides himself.

Maybe you could boil down your posts to 3 paragraphs or so

 

[VF21]

I don't have contempt for Vlade. I hope he succeeds.

Note: Reasonably objective criticism is not contempt. If you would like to contend that my criticism is not reasonable nor objective, be my guest.

I didn't mention it above but I do respect Vlade for having the guts to pull the plug on Boogie, and said so more than once.

It took courage to admit it wasn't working and reverse course after trying to make it work for a couple of years.

I respect that, I just take issue with what we got in return and how that whole situation was managed. It was Amateur Hour.

Saying so is not me having contempt for the guy, it is calling like it is.

You may think you're being reasonably objective, but some of your rants against Vlade are IMHO pure passive-aggressive in nature. Perception is reality, and speaking solely for myself, I perceive that you have a lot of contempt for Vlade Divac.

Just giving you my two cents.

 

[Gguod]

Better than trying to build with the roster that Vlade was handcuffed with

No it really isnt. You never mortage your future just to make a hypotethical push for 8th seed. Never. If the roster isnt worth building up on, you rebuild. Just what we ended up doing, just unfortunately after Vlade already hurt the process by that stupid trade

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Where the heck did you get that from? As a matter of fact that was one of the reasons Mitch doesn't have the GM job with the Lakers anymore. Is your blind hatred of Vlade made you make up things that never happened. Lakers refused to give up Ingram in a Cousins deal. What are you even talking about?

Hahaha, yeah that’s where I stopped reading. In fact, missing on Boogie is the event that kicked off the power struggle culminating with Jeannie in charge. It’s only one of the most reported on stories of the past year.

 

[whozit]

No it really isnt. You never mortage your future just to make a hypotethical push for 8th seed. Never. If the roster isnt worth building up on, you rebuild. Just what we ended up doing, just unfortunately after Vlade already hurt the process by that stupid trade

Can you not imagine that the decision might not have anything to do with basketball related reasons? They wanted the team to be in or at least in playoff contention by the time the arena opened. How much that came into play, I don't know. However, I would be shocked if it wasn't part of the discussion. There are competing interests at play.

 

[Gguod]

Can you not imagine that the decision might not have anything to do with basketball related reasons? They wanted the team to be in or at least in playoff contention by the time the arena opened. How much that came into play, I don't know. However, I would be shocked if it wasn't part of the discussion. There are competing interests at play.

Yeah might be. Whatever the reasons were, it was a bad trade and now we are paying for it.

 

[VF21]

Yeah might be. Whatever the reasons were, it was a bad trade and now we are paying for it.

lt's a sunk cost, over and done with. Yes he made what a lot consider a mistake but at this point I strongly feel it should NOT be used as the major example of his ability as a GM. It's akin to people using Webber's errant attempt to call a timeout while still in college to reflect his entire basketball career. Mistakes happen. You learn from them and move on - unless, apparently, your name is Vlade Divac.

 

[John Galt]

Yeah might be. Whatever the reasons were, it was a bad trade and now we are paying for it.

Haven't paid for it yet. We pay for it on 2019 draft day.... and it is yet to be seen how high that price turns out to be overall. If it is below pick #10 will some of you forgive the guy? #12?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

We had an all NBA level talent in Cousins and tried to win with him. I swear. Some of you act like you'd be ok with losing the way we are now if we never tried and instead had that pick.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

I just happened to listen an interview Vivek gave to Bloomberg TV yesterday (2/16/2018) in which he talks about the new arena and economic
benefits it has brought to downtown so I looked it up after reading your and !'s posts. The interview is 5 minutes long but the economic impact part is around the start of minute 3. Not from Sacramento so I don't know if this is true, but Vivek claimed billion $ impact to local economy and thousands of jobs. he said "downtown is popping" now. maybe you will find it interesting: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/vide...e-says-new-arena-exceeding-expectations-video

I'm an economic analyst at a commercial real estate company in downtown and I can attest to this. Downtown spending has increased $71 million dollars. Downtown and midtown food sales are up 40%. More than $2 billion dollars have been invested in downtown since the arena was announced. 32 construction projects surround the arena, mostly renovations. Foot traffic has increased 10%. Downtown employment has increased 38% since the arena was announced. Lastly, the arena has created roughly 2,000 jobs from food production alone.

 

[ParniValjak]

Haven't paid for it yet. We pay for it on 2019 draft day.... and it is yet to be seen how high that price turns out to be overall. If it is below pick #10 will some of you forgive the guy? #12?

I think that will entirely depend on whether or not you have your franchise pieces in place.

Let’s for arguments sake say you have 2-3 franchise pillars in place in Fox, Gilles and Ayton and you are winning around 30 games then the price is still the same but the hurt factor is a LOT lower.

If on the other hand, there are still many questions about who your franchise pillars are, then even if its #12, it will still hurt.

I think that if anyone should be aware how much losing or bombing out on first round picks really hurts a small market franchise it should be us. First round picks are like gold for small market teams. It your major way of building.

Now if you have you franchise pillars in place and you aquire a 2019 pick in the 20s via a trade, then the hurt might not be there at all. Especially if getting that pick doesn’t cost you your core piece.

 

[hrdboild]

lt's a sunk cost, over and done with. Yes he made what a lot consider a mistake but at this point I strongly feel it should NOT be used as the major example of his ability as a GM. It's akin to people using Webber's errant attempt to call a timeout while still in college to reflect his entire basketball career. Mistakes happen. You learn from them and move on - unless, apparently, your name is Vlade Divac.

This was a fair argument two weeks ago. But immediately after he dumped two more first round picks for nothing I think it's perfectly reasonable to question whether Vlade has learned anything at all from the Philly trade. The whole issue there is that he grossly undervalued his draft picks relative to the rest of the league-- giving up lottery rights in essentially 3 different drafts for cap space. If you're going to call the 2019 pick "sunk cost" at this point and the draft misfires on Papagiannis and Richardson a year later (both of which were questioned even on draft day so there was reason to believe they were bad picks right off the bat) and the George Hill signing a year after that which evidently turned sour the second he stepped on the court... I don't see any room in there for claiming that Vlade has improved year to year.

To use your analogy, if Webber continued to make poor decisions in crunch time throughout his career then that costly timeout in the championship game wouldn't be merely a past mistake but rather the first sign of what would ultimately be his Achilles heel... A great player who unfortunately makes bad decisions when the pressure is high. Whether that's actually true or not isn't worth arguing here, but as it pertains to Vlade my point is that past mistakes can be forgiven if they prove to be outliers. As part of a pattern of behavior they're not just past mistakes they're character flaws.

 

[andjel]

on the other hand, he made it possible and drafted 6 first rounders and a good second rounder and rights for NBA starter quality player in two drafts,
Not a record for someone who is undervaluing draft picks.

 

[King Baller]

on the other hand, he made it possible and drafted 6 first rounders and a good second rounder and rights for NBA starter quality player in two drafts,
Not a record for someone who is undervaluing draft picks.

This is the side of the argument so many want to discount and then just focus on what was "lost". There are 7 players on the Kings that were added in the last two years that have "upside". Then there is Willie who is still developing. Throw in Bruno and Sampson and that is 10 Guys added in 3 years.

Yet some want to put a focus on the 2019 pick, Papa and Mal. Folks every GM in the NBA makes moves that do not work out. Nobody hits on every at bat. Not even Hinkie

 

[Gguod]

lt's a sunk cost, over and done with. Yes he made what a lot consider a mistake but at this point I strongly feel it should NOT be used as the major example of his ability as a GM. It's akin to people using Webber's errant attempt to call a timeout while still in college to reflect his entire basketball career. Mistakes happen. You learn from them and move on - unless, apparently, your name is Vlade Divac.

Everyone should consider it a mistake. And my whole point has been that it was a rookie mistake where an experienced gm fooled a rookie gm. Not being able to keep adding assets during a rebuild is another mistake by Vlade but thats another discussion. I liked his trade backs so I'm not saying he is a lost cause. I said that its unfortunate he had to make those rookie mistakes with us.

Haven't paid for it yet. We pay for it on 2019 draft day.... and it is yet to be seen how high that price turns out to be overall. If it is below pick #10 will some of you forgive the guy? #12?

I know we havent paid for it yet but we basically are paying the price at the moment since it makes our rebuild more difficult.

Whatever the pick turns out to be, it sitll was an awfull trade and a big mistake. If its 15th, it still has a lot of value, especially since nowadays even playoff teams are very reluctant to part ways with 1st rounders. No one should "forgive" in the sence that it still was a mistake. That doesnt mean Vlade couldnt develope to a good gm. It just means that he has made mistakes that should be acknowledged.

 

[Gguod]

This is the side of the argument so many want to discount and then just focus on what was "lost". There are 7 players on the Kings that were added in the last two years that have "upside". Then there is Willie who is still developing. Throw in Bruno and Sampson and that is 10 Guys added in 3 years.

Yet some want to put a focus on the 2019 pick, Papa and Mal. Folks every GM in the NBA makes moves that do not work out. Nobody hits on every at bat. Not even Hinkie

The main complaint about Vlade imo has been his inability to add assets by using cap space. Cap space is great way for a rebuilding team to develope their future but Vlade has rather used it on vets like Hill and Zbo and missed on trades like Carrol trade ect. Because of last year alone, we have 23million useless cap in Zbo and Shumpert. We could have had +40mil cap space next summer but unfortunately we wont.

And the reason why the sixers trade is still a conversation is because for some reason there still are some people who wants to defend it. If Vlade hadnt done that trade, if he had utilized our cap space smartly and on top of that done those trade backs, I would be singing his praises. Unfortunately he havent done that so im not gonna sing

 

[pdxKingsFan]

But immediately after he dumped two more first round picks for nothing I think it's perfectly reasonable to question whether Vlade has learned anything at all from the Philly trade.

Yeah - he did. He waived them or got a guy on an expiring instead of trading a pick to clear space. You know exactly what you demanded he do in the Philly trade instead.

He can't win with you guys, admit it.

 

[hrdboild]

Yeah - he did. He waived them or got a guy on an expiring instead of trading a pick to clear space. You know exactly what you demanded he do in the Philly trade instead.

He can't win with you guys, admit it.

It was 3 years ago, I don't remember what I said. I think I mostly defended him but didn't think the pick swaps were necessary and Hinkie could have been talked into dropping them and I wanted protection on the pick. At that point in time I wanted to give Vlade the benefit of the doubt but it sure looked like an overpay of you'd been paying attention to the moves other teams were making.

I don't expect Vlade to trade first round picks every time he tries to clear cap space but I still think this year's version was especially egregious because he was forced to give up assets to clear a salary he just signed off on last summer. I also don't understand why George Hill supposedly had negative value. Only Kings fans are saying that. His numbers this season are very close to his career averages. This is a narrative cooked up in Kings land for some reason that has always been nonsense and now it's being used to defend a bad trade. A couple weeks before the trade deadline Jason Jones came out with an article detailing how important George Hill was to the young guards as a mentor. It was mostly ignored because it didn't fit the narrative. Cleveland wanted him and so did Houston. We had all the leverage in that situation and what did we get for it? A meaningless second round pick and a guy on our roster who's probably not even going to play for us.

Why do you think this is some kind of personal vendetta? I have nothing against Vlade. If he comes in and does a bang up job I'm as happy as anyone. That's not what happened. I get that he has a lot of currency here because his number is in the rafters and he played a central role in the best team Sacramento has ever had but lots of great players turn out to be poor front office personnel. I don't have to go through the list, most of us know the main culprits. The reality is that the NBA is very competitive and any GM is only as good as their last deal. I didn't give Geoff Petrie a pass for his blunders either and he's got two executive of the year awards. This discussion is a matter of perspective and I don't think anyone is convincing anyone else to change theirs but the idea that I'm looking for reasons to pick on poor little Vlade is insulting. I'm literally begging him to give me something to believe in.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

It was 3 years ago, I don't remember what I said. I think I mostly defended him but didn't think the pick swaps were necessary and Hinkie could have been talked into dropping them and I wanted protection on the pick. At that point in time I wanted to give Vlade the benefit of the doubt but it sure looked like an overpay of you'd been paying attention to the moves other teams were making.

I don't expect Vlade to trade first round picks every time he tries to clear cap space but I still think this year's version was especially egregious because he was forced to give up assets to clear a salary he just signed off on last summer. I also don't understand why George Hill supposedly had negative value. Only Kings fans are saying that. His numbers this season are very close to his career averages. This is a narrative cooked up in Kings land for some reason that has always been nonsense and now it's being used to defend a bad trade. A couple weeks before the trade deadline Jason Jones came out with an article detailing how important George Hill was to the young guards as a mentor. It was mostly ignored because it didn't fit the narrative. Cleveland wanted him and so did Houston. We had all the leverage in that situation and what did we get for it? A meaningless second round pick and a guy on our roster who's probably not even going to play for us.

Why do you think this is some kind of personal vendetta? I have nothing against Vlade. If he comes in and does a bang up job I'm as happy as anyone. That's not what happened. I get that he has a lot of currency here because his number is in the rafters and he played a central role in the best team Sacramento has ever had but lots of great players turn out to be poor front office personnel. I don't have to go through the list, most of us know the main culprits. The reality is that the NBA is very competitive and any GM is only as good as their last deal. I didn't give Geoff Petrie a pass for his blunders either and he's got two executive of the year awards. This discussion is a matter of perspective and I don't think anyone is convincing anyone else to change theirs but the idea that I'm looking for reasons to pick on poor little Vlade is insulting. I'm literally begging him to give me something to believe in.

There's been a constant moving of the goal posts with Vlade. I don't like everything he's done but I won't criticize him for dumping a draft pick and not learning from it when he then gets out of a few bad contracts relatively unscathed and frees up space to make moves in the summer. If there were deals for Hill there we would have got them. It doesn't help that LeBron's personal mouthpiece Windhorst was reporting terribly one-sided deals and Hill was vocal in the media about being unhappy. That always decreases value.

 

[hrdboild]

There's been a constant moving of the goal posts with Vlade. I don't like everything he's done but I won't criticize him for dumping a draft pick and not learning from it when he then gets out of a few bad contracts relatively unscathed and frees up space to make moves in the summer. If there were deals for Hill there we would have got them. It doesn't help that LeBron's personal mouthpiece Windhorst was reporting terribly one-sided deals and Hill was vocal in the media about being unhappy. That always decreases value.

Yes but he has it within his power to say no. And in saying no that would tell other teams that they're going to have to offer more if they want something. Settling for a bad deal now tells other teams that he'll probably settle for a bad deal later. Why should it matter if anyone is moving the goal posts though? Whether I (or any other fan) says Vlade is doing a good job or not doesn't actually matter. What matters are the results. And unfortunately, the goalposts do keep moving every year -- Golden State adds Durant, Houston adds Chris Paul, Denver is starting to look like an actual playoff threat as Jokic and their young guards keep getting better, we traded an All Star big man to a western conference team we're now going to have to go through in the future to get to the Finals. Those are tangible changes which make his job even tougher.

Here's the part of your post I would take issue with:

he then gets out of a few bad contracts relatively unscathed and frees up space to make moves in the summer.

Those "bad contracts" were two of his first round picks in 2016 and the guy he signed last summer to be the veteran mentor for his young PG. If you're going to call all three of the guys we got rid of "bad contracts" that reflects directly on Vlade doesn't it? He signed all of those deals and we would have had even more cap space this summer if he'd just not signed Hill in the first place. Even going by your own description of what you think is a good move, isn't that really just a veiled criticism of the three bad moves that preceded it? If you think I'm moving the goalposts and making unfair demands, at what point does it become fair to hold Vlade accountable in your eyes?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

If you think I'm moving the goalposts and making unfair demands, at what point does it become fair to hold Vlade accountable in your eyes?

This is why I take issue:

A) George Hill - widely regarded to be a "win" in the offseason. Over and over it was the most significant free agent signing since Brad Miller or Vlade himself. Clearly he arrived with misguided expectations - whose fault is that? Let's be honest, nobody knows. But the team seems to acknowledge they weren't looking to win games this year and planned on rebuilding next year. Despite expectations, he has both underperformed and been a bad presence ever since he arrived, nobody seems to dispute this. Also Fox and Mason have clearly earned PT. He had to go.

B) Malachi and Papa - repeatedly over and over it has been hammered home these were bad picks and don't fit. Ok. It was a bad draft but sure I'm going to allow that. However - if they were bad picks, not NBA players, etc. it seems unfair to expect him to get something back for them (he got a flyer on one player at least). He also waived the other guy which is something he has been bashed for not doing with the guys in 2016. The fact is he actually realized these guys had no future and moved on. This is good. This is largely what his detractors have been asking him to do, and now that he does it in a way that doesn't hurt us, he somehow made another bad move???

I guess my point is, call him out for one thing or call him out for another. Don't make one mistake into three mistakes by repeating them each time they happen (player signed/player shipped). And by god, if not flexing/waiving is a cardinal sin in 2016, flexing or waiving a player in 2018 is acceptable and if you claim both are unacceptable, that's just being dishonest.