SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And there you have it. The caveat being yes, players like Hali that can run pnr have a greater value in todays league so that might push him above a Domas just a tad in a real on the floor sense.
Tyrese Watch
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
And there you have it. The caveat being yes, players like Hali that can run pnr have a greater value in todays league so that might push him above a Domas just a tad in a real on the floor sense.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
That gets into the character issue. Leaders don't get bent or pout when someone else starts playing well. No, they do everything possible to elevate them more. Fox doesn't have championship mindset as a lead player....and some of us recognized it while Haliburton was here
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And this is why I'm a little concerned about Sabonis' comments in the exits. He might have picked up a little Foxyness during his tenure playing with him.
megapoxy
Starter
There is a lot of buzz regarding Hali lately and rightfully so, the guy has been doing amazing things the past few months.
Regarding if he or Luka is better:
Indiana is the perfect fit for Hali, is built around him and has a very good coach to guide him. Luka to me is the better player, much better scorer but his teams ask him to do different things and doesn't have the same plan like the Pacers. I don't know if Hali can do what Luka does and vice versa. It also doesn't make much sense how come Hali is soooo clutch lately, it's almost unreal, shots that he misses during the match almost always go in the final seconds somehow. Luka had some tough winning baskets as well but not so many in such a short time (the one against Gobert, the one against the Clippers in the past and several during regular season).
There was an article about "Kerr told Walton not to change Haliburton shooting style when he was playing at the Kings", did Kerr use Haliburton at all in the last Olympics when he was part of Team USA? Barely...
Last but not least, if Haliburton had stayed with the Kings we can not tell for sure he would have been evolved the way he did the past 2-3 years at Indiana.
A bit off topic but the Pacers style looks like an upgraded version of the "Beam Team" (season 1 ofc) that also works well in the defensive part, something that we failed miserably to do in season 2 and it even worse in season 3. I don't imply that they "copied" our system, but it's something like "what if" if that beam team season 1 had good guidance from the bench and had good players coming from the front office (via trades, free agency or draft picks) that could become even better and might have been a contender at the end.
Regarding if he or Luka is better:
Indiana is the perfect fit for Hali, is built around him and has a very good coach to guide him. Luka to me is the better player, much better scorer but his teams ask him to do different things and doesn't have the same plan like the Pacers. I don't know if Hali can do what Luka does and vice versa. It also doesn't make much sense how come Hali is soooo clutch lately, it's almost unreal, shots that he misses during the match almost always go in the final seconds somehow. Luka had some tough winning baskets as well but not so many in such a short time (the one against Gobert, the one against the Clippers in the past and several during regular season).
There was an article about "Kerr told Walton not to change Haliburton shooting style when he was playing at the Kings", did Kerr use Haliburton at all in the last Olympics when he was part of Team USA? Barely...
Last but not least, if Haliburton had stayed with the Kings we can not tell for sure he would have been evolved the way he did the past 2-3 years at Indiana.
A bit off topic but the Pacers style looks like an upgraded version of the "Beam Team" (season 1 ofc) that also works well in the defensive part, something that we failed miserably to do in season 2 and it even worse in season 3. I don't imply that they "copied" our system, but it's something like "what if" if that beam team season 1 had good guidance from the bench and had good players coming from the front office (via trades, free agency or draft picks) that could become even better and might have been a contender at the end.
sactowndog
All-Star
He played here almost 2 years being traded at the trade deadline in year 2. And by then pretty much everyone saw it.
sactowndog
All-Star
Luka may be the better offensive player but Luka is also worse defensively. He is particularly bad against teams with iso scorers who look to hunt mismatches. Boston tore him up. Hali isn’t great defensively but he is better than an overweight Luka. Between the two I would take Hali.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Many don't seem to recognize or forget about assist to turnover ratio. It's incredibly valuable from a lead guard
Padrino
All-Star
Doncic's usage rate is significantly higher than Haliburton's, so comparing assist to turnover ratio isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison. What you want is turnover percentage. Haliburton's was exceptional in 24-25, at just under 10% per 100 possessions. But year-over-year, he and Doncic are pretty comparable, with Doncic averaging about a 14% turnover rate and Haliburton averaging about a 13% turnover rate. Both protect the ball well given the scope of their respective responsibilities on the floor.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Meh, they’re both pretty awful defensively but Luka is bigger so when he gets switched onto a big it’s not an immediate disaster.
sactowndog
All-Star
Boston targeted him repeatedly and it pretty much was an immediate disaster.
BTW there are one or two people here sticking their heads into this thread with glee because they get to point out how dumb the Kings are and how dumb Monte is.
But leading up to the Hali trade, some of these same posters were determined to argue the Kings should acquire Ben Simmons (because he was a wing? Was that the actual reason?) despite his refusal to turn up to work with his physical ailments/ mental health issues/ burnt pride.
It's easy to say: "Kings should have traded Fox, they are dumb" and it's easy to say "look how bad everything turned out, I am so right for thinking someone employed to do a job I would never be considered for is a dummy" when you don't actually have: 1) much more than rumours and inference; and 2) the same standards of accountability.
But leading up to the Hali trade, some of these same posters were determined to argue the Kings should acquire Ben Simmons (because he was a wing? Was that the actual reason?) despite his refusal to turn up to work with his physical ailments/ mental health issues/ burnt pride.
It's easy to say: "Kings should have traded Fox, they are dumb" and it's easy to say "look how bad everything turned out, I am so right for thinking someone employed to do a job I would never be considered for is a dummy" when you don't actually have: 1) much more than rumours and inference; and 2) the same standards of accountability.
coolhandluke
Starter
Tyrese with the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde impression again. Have to show up for all quarters not just the fourth. He has good teammates that take up the initiative but as a leader he has to put that imprint right from the start.
Padrino
All-Star
Indeed. For those who watched the game, Haliburton was more or less a non-factor through the first three quarters, and by the time he showed up in the fourth, the game was already out of reach. The passivity is what remains perplexing to me, and it's why I continually put Hali in the same category of star as Sabonis and Fox.
Ultimately, I keep taking the "hold your horses" approach to evaluating Tyrese because I don't trust him yet as the centerpiece of a contender. He's hit some big shots in these playoffs, so the narrative that's coalescing around him is "He's got next!". But from an overall impact standpoint, I'm not yet seeing it. I mean, he's a really good player, and often very fun to watch. He's got All-NBA talent that's at least on par with Domas. But like Domas, his impact gets dulled by his curious desire to defer and his not-exactly-infrequent disappearing act.
Sure, you can "build around" Tyrese easily enough, but when we're talking about the "upper echelon" of the NBA, we're talking about guys you can count on to carry the day when you need them to do so, guys that are worth their enormous share of a franchise's salary cap. Jokic is that guy. Doncic is that guy. Giannis is that guy. And SGA is very clearly that guy. Is Tyrese? I'm certainly not ready to buy that stock, no matter how vindicated someone like JJ Redick may feel for his silly "malpractice" take.
I've said it before, but I'll happily eat crow if and when Hali proves my doubts foolish. He's only 25. He's got plenty of time. But does he have the temperament to go searching for the next gear that will make me regret the Kings traded him? We'll see. He could find it right here in these Finals, for all I know. I wouldn't rule it out. I just remain unconvinced that he's worth the level of smugly-coated snobbery I see from a lot of Kings fans right now.
This goes exactly to your point. IF people are saying Hali is a generational talent and he's next up and he's more valuable than Luka Doncic, these sort of performances are unacceptable. Interestingly little being said about his lackluster finals so far (outside of the game winner), but people do seem eager to anoint him the next coming.
If you want to be called a top 5 player, an MVP candidate, a future HOF, you simply cannot have these sort of games. And before all the weirdos come after me: Hali is having an awesome playoffs, he's very clearly a top 15-20 player that's on the cusp of pushing his way into the top 10. But it's not me (or a few of us here), that are saying he's more valuable than Luka, he's a first ballot HOF, etc. If that's you evaluation on him, then his scrutiny needs to be just as loud as the praise. Which, has been fairly quiet from that contingent after game 2.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
IF the Thunder still win this series 4-1 or 4-2 it will likely be because Lu Dort was able to greatly slow down Hali. I’m glad he finally got an All Defense spot this year, he was trending in the direction of Jrue Holiday in the sense that a lot of the best players would call him the toughest defender and then he wouldn’t get the love come award season.
Yes, but it narratives.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
At least the rest of the league finally figured out that “And they threw in Buddy Hield?!!” Was actually “And they actually found someone to take Buddy Hield off their hands?!!!!”
coolhandluke
Starter
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