Tyrese Watch

Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#121
#121
Tizzy Flip said:
You compared him to Harden and Trae, which no one with eyes would ever make. It would be good to admit for a change that was a bad comparison instead of trying to rationalize your way out of it which is making it worse.
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I think you're wrong. I think that you're exercising some level of revisionist history when it comes to Harden, and I'm guessing that you simply haven't seen Trae Young as many NBA games as I have, and may be basing your opinion of his play heavily on his games against Sacramento + vibes. Stylistically, Trae Young and Tyrese Haliburton play similarly; Haliburton may dribble less than Young, but not a whole lot less. They have similar outputs, in terms of counting stats, and they have similar results. The only real separator is efficiency, and I don't take efficiency into consideration when I'm comparing star-level players.
 
T

Tizzy Flip

Starter
#122
#122
I respectfully disagree. I think Harden’s and Trae’s game is vastly different than Hali. They are ball dominant, high volume players which is validated by their usage rates (Trae - 7th in 2021, 9th in 2022, 11th in 2023, 22nd this season. Harden was top 10 with Rockets each season). Hali’s usage in his first full season last year being the lead PG was 87th, which for perspective is lower than Devin Vassell. This season in spite of his offensive production he’s 62nd.

Hali is a lot more selective with his shot (he averages 1 more FG made than Trae shooting 2 FGs less). It also helps that he’s 6’5 and people have to respect his drive to the basket which gives him extra space to shoot. Again, Nash is a shooting comparison based purely on accuracy. The way he runs the offense with the pick-and-roll and pick-and-pop is comparable to CP3 in his prime. The way he uses his length to find an open pass (he still likes to jump and find a passing lane, which sometimes gets him in trouble) is like Lebron.

Well he has another opportunity at 2pm today to show the world who he plays like.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#125
#125
There’s about to be some mental gymnastics about how the Pacers aren’t good because they give up a lot of points on defense…

Hali is playing out of his mind this year. Maybe my Chris Paul comparisons weren’t coming from left field at all. He might end up having a better career than CP3 when it’s all said and done
 
Geoff

Geoff

Bench
#130
#130
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Only online do I ever encounter people who bring up efficiency numbers when having a discussion about player comps. I thought it was obvious that I was basing my comparisons on a) counting stats and b) expected success levels, but whatever. And if you think that Nash is a closer comparison, fine, I won't disagree with that. I still think that Haliburton is closer to Nash or Harden than he is to Curry. And yes, Nash was great: he was a two-time MVP, and a Hall of Famer. I've already said that I think that Fox's ceiling is Dwyane Wade, who never won a regular season MVP. And, not only that, but you could make the argument that Wade never led a team to the Finals as the main guy. If you ask me would I take the best of Steve Nash over the best of Dwyane Wade, my answer's still no.
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Didn't the Heat win in 2006 with Wade as the lead?
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#131
#131
Geoff said:
Didn't the Heat win in 2006 with Wade as the lead?
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Depends who you ask. Many people will tell you, in 2023, that Wade had already taken over as the leader of the team by then, but I don't recall that being the prevailing opinion at the time. Hell, you could make the argument that the Heat won that championship because Avery Johnson refused to stop coaching the series like Shaq was still the #1 guy.
 
gunks

gunks

Hall of Famer
#132
#132
Live gambling odds next to the score just seems kinda.... gross.

Like, no judgement if you enjoy a bit of sports betting here and there, but I feel like the NBA is pretty heavy handed with its partnership with Big Gambling.

At least they have those "don't let gambling ruin your life" PSAs from time to time during commercial breaks.

Anyways, go Pels!
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#134
#134
Tizzy Flip said:
The key word is between. If he hasn’t stopped his dribble it isn’t a travel. If Giannis can speed dribble from half court to the hoop, it’s cuz the rules allow for it
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Wait, what? Taking 5 steps between dribbles is always a travel. The refs just missed it or more likely saw it and allowed it anyway because damn near every guard does it in the NBA now. As an old head I find it embarrassing when an official NBA account posts a highlight with some kind of "can you believe this?! basketball is awesome!!" caption and I watch the highlight and there's an obvious travel or palming violation or moving screen involved. But the kids don't seem to mind so I guess I'm the one who doesn't know basketball anymore.
 
T

Tizzy Flip

Starter
#135
#135
hrdboild said:
Wait, what? Taking 5 steps between dribbles is always a travel. The refs just missed it or more likely saw it and allowed it anyway because damn near every guard does it in the NBA now. As an old head I find it embarrassing when an official NBA account posts a highlight with some kind of "can you believe this?! basketball is awesome!!" caption and I watch the highlight and there's an obvious travel or palming violation or moving screen involved. But the kids don't seem to mind so I guess I'm the one who doesn't know basketball anymore.
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Can you show me where in the rule book it says you can’t take more than a certain number of steps while in the act of dribbling? Also, have you ever seen anyone be called for a travel while they were still dribbling. Again, Giannis is able to cover long distances without traveling cuz he takes a big dribble followed by a number of long steps, all without picking up the ball.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#139
#139
Tizzy Flip said:
https://www.nbra.net/rules/traveling/

Watch the 1st and 2nd videos. Esp 2nd video of Giannis. You’ll find it enlightening
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The video in question is an example of a legal gather -- Giannis takes two steps then finishes after picking up the ball. Giannis also travels in that clip while dribbling up the court when he takes multiple steps between dribbles. Even in the Luka Doncic video above that, his step back move is legal since it only uses two steps but his hesitation stutter step at mid court is a travel because he shuffles his feet to change direction while the ball is in the air then continues dribbling. If you watched basketball in the 90s, these are all obvious traveling violations.

Here's the actual rule as written:

Section II—Dribble

  1. A player shall not run with the ball without dribbling it.
  2. A player in control of a dribble who steps on or outside a boundary line, even though not touching the ball while on or outside that boundary line, shall not be allowed to return inbounds and continue his dribble. He may not even be the first player to touch the ball after he has re-established a position inbounds.
  3. A player may not dribble a second time after he has voluntarily ended his first dribble.
  4. A player who is dribbling may not put any part of his hand under the ball and (1) carry it from one point to another or (2) bring it to a pause and then continue to dribble again.
  5. A player may dribble a second time if he lost control of the ball because of:
    1. A field goal attempt at his basket, provided the ball touches the backboard or basket ring
    2. An opponent touching the ball
    3. A pass or fumble which touches his backboard, basket ring or is touched by another player.
      1. PENALTY: Loss of ball. Ball is awarded to the opposing team on the sideline nearest the spot of the violation but no nearer the baseline than the foul line extended.
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The two lines I highlighted are the rules being violated but there's some room for interpretation in both because the language is not precise...

Giannis running up the court while only occasionally dribbling the ball could be (and I would argue should be) interpreted as running without dribbling.

Luka and Tyrese using a hesitation dribble to throw in two or three quick change of direction steps before continuing their dribble should count as a discontinued dribble. And in the Tyrese clip he goes straight from a three step hesitation move into a two step gather which is all kinds of illegal and yet somehow, by the sheer fact that neither the commentators, officials, or official NBA TV twitter ever acknowledge it... also not illegal?
 
T

Tizzy Flip

Starter
#140
#140
hrdboild said:
The video in question is an example of a legal gather -- Giannis takes two steps then finishes after picking up the ball. Giannis also travels in that clip while dribbling up the court when he takes multiple steps between dribbles. Even in the Luka Doncic video above that, his step back move is legal since it only uses two steps but his hesitation stutter step at mid court is a travel because he shuffles his feet to change direction while the ball is in the air then continues dribbling. If you watched basketball in the 90s, these are all obvious traveling violations.

Here's the actual rule as written:



The two lines I highlighted are the rules being violated but there's some room for interpretation in both because the language is not precise...

Giannis running up the court while only occasionally dribbling the ball could be (and I would argue should be) interpreted as running without dribbling.

Luka and Tyrese using a hesitation dribble to throw in two or three quick change of direction steps before continuing their dribble should count as a discontinued dribble. And in the Tyrese clip he goes straight from a three step hesitation move into a two step gather which is all kinds of illegal and yet somehow, by the sheer fact that neither the commentators, officials, or official NBA TV twitter ever acknowledge it... also not illegal?
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Giannis also travels in that clip while dribbling up the court when he takes multiple steps between
dribbles

Can you send me a link to an official NBA rule that says you can’t take multiple steps in the act of dribbling? What you copied and pasted is in no NBA/FIBA rule book I have (and I ref youth hoops), so I just want to be informed if I’ve been trained incorrectly. I also doubt the NBRA would show 2 examples of legal steps when the players in question travelled prior.
 
T

Tizzy Flip

Starter
#141
#141
Tizzy Flip said:
Giannis also travels in that clip while dribbling up the court when he takes multiple steps between
dribbles

Can you send me a link to an official NBA rule that says you can’t take multiple steps in the act of dribbling? What you copied and pasted is in no NBA/FIBA rule book I have (and I ref youth hoops), so I just want to be informed if I’ve been trained incorrectly. I also doubt the NBRA would show 2 examples of legal steps when the players in question travelled prior.
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Nevermind, I found the section. But I think your interpretation is not correct at least based on training from refs at the college level.

A player shall not run with the ball without dribbling it.

This rule means if you’re not in the act of dribbling, then you can’t run with the ball. Giannis in the video is in the act of dribbling. Now if he’s carrying the ball and running, then that’s a travelling violation. If he’s cradling the ball and running, then that’s a carry violation. I know it seems gray but this is what I’ve been informed.
 
T

Tizzy Flip

Starter
#142
#142
hrdboild said:
The video in question is an example of a legal gather -- Giannis takes two steps then finishes after picking up the ball. Giannis also travels in that clip while dribbling up the court when he takes multiple steps between dribbles. Even in the Luka Doncic video above that, his step back move is legal since it only uses two steps but his hesitation stutter step at mid court is a travel because he shuffles his feet to change direction while the ball is in the air then continues dribbling. If you watched basketball in the 90s, these are all obvious traveling violations.

Here's the actual rule as written:



The two lines I highlighted are the rules being violated but there's some room for interpretation in both because the language is not precise...

Giannis running up the court while only occasionally dribbling the ball could be (and I would argue should be) interpreted as running without dribbling.

Luka and Tyrese using a hesitation dribble to throw in two or three quick change of direction steps before continuing their dribble should count as a discontinued dribble. And in the Tyrese clip he goes straight from a three step hesitation move into a two step gather which is all kinds of illegal and yet somehow, by the sheer fact that neither the commentators, officials, or official NBA TV twitter ever acknowledge it... also not illegal?
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One other example I can think of where players are taking multiple steps in between dribbles. Fox will do this sometimes after receiving an inbounds. He’ll take a dribble, take his hand off the ball, casually walk alongside the ball while he’s calling out a play. 3+ steps later he dribbles again and pushes the ball up. Not saying he’s not traveling, but if it’s a rule then he never gets called for it.

In any case, these discussions are so interesting and shows NBA needs to do a better job showing examples of what’s legal and what’s not. Like you can find a ton of different opinions if a step through is legal or not
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#143
#143
Tizzy Flip said:
It’s really fun watching him play. His leadership has single handedly changed that organization. Of all his crazy stats this week, the most impressive one…. Not a single turnover
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Dude has like 1 turnover this month

63royals said:
Fox + Sabonis is better for the Kings than Fox + Haliburton, and Haliburton + Turner is better for the Pacers than Sabonis + Turner. So the trade is a win-win. And Indiana wanted Haliburton so trading Fox instead was NOT an option.
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No doubt they would’ve just done Fox what’s the other option keeping two centers that weren’t working. We should’ve pulled a Massi
 
G

gilly420

Bench
#144
#144
Hali just passed Fox as far as what 1 player can do in my mind. Tough to say but that kid is really the man. Hard for me to believe but it looks like we funked up. Could be worse than Bagley decision.

And I was still defending the trade last week. Then I went to see the Kings live twice and got a good look. Yikes
 
I

ick300

Starter
#145
#145
We trade him for Sabonis right ?
Sorry for the stupid question but it is before my time of becoming big Kings fan haha..

P.S. I am but surprised by myself ,i thought i will sacramento only because of Vezenkov , but i started to like the team pretty much :)
 
iowamcnabb

iowamcnabb

Hall of Famer
#146
#146
gilly420 said:
Hali just passed Fox as far as what 1 player can do in my mind. Tough to say but that kid is really the man. Hard for me to believe but it looks like we funked up. Could be worse than Bagley decision.

And I was still defending the trade last week. Then I went to see the Kings live twice and got a good look. Yikes
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Talk about being prisoner of the moment. Us trading for an All star center AND unlocking our all star guard is worse than drafting Bagley? Oi vey.

By the way the team you saw live twice has one less win than the Haliburton lead team.
 
Geoff

Geoff

Bench
#149
#149
gilly420 said:
Hali just passed Fox as far as what 1 player can do in my mind. Tough to say but that kid is really the man. Hard for me to believe but it looks like we funked up. Could be worse than Bagley decision.

And I was still defending the trade last week. Then I went to see the Kings live twice and got a good look. Yikes
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This is a reactionary take.
 
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