KingsCitizen
Starter
I like your signature on Bill Simmons quote.
And this was his statement before he made that:
Simmons said that, "In no way, shape or form is he a point guard. You will never sell me on that one."
Tyreke is Lebron of PGs
- Thread starter KingsCitizen
- Start date
I like your signature on Bill Simmons quote.
And this was his statement before he made that:
Simmons said that, "In no way, shape or form is he a point guard. You will never sell me on that one."
Like the way ESPN ranked him among the top SGs?
I doubt that this topic will go away before the Kings find some approach to the PG issue that gets them winning games. A team that looks lost, leaderless, and generally crappy is not going to convince anyone that the solution's already in place.
Weve been discussing this the past 5 pages....
I do not agree with Tyreke having better PG skills than head, and that speaks a lot about how i judge Tyreke as a PG.
I would rather go the Lebron and Iverson way than the Nash and Paul way.
Nash and Paul never reach the NBA Finals.
Yes?
Nash and Paul's teams are entertaining to watch very much like we've been entertained by the glorious Kings team . Nash/Paul=unselfish plays, double digit assists, and playoffs.
Championship appearances?
Nada.
It was the presence of the ball-dominant, dominating players, and scoring machines like Iverson and Lebron who reached the NBA Finals and not the Steve Nashes and Chris Pauls.
Oh, yeah. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were also ball-hoggers just like Iverson. Both have at least 5 championships rings on their fingers once they learned how to pass the ball.
Therefore, let us mold Evans to the likes of Jordan, Bryant, Lebron, and Iverson. Put the ball on Evans and let him learn the ropes. Make him a point guard early on his career so he would learn how to pass the ball like Jordan and Bryant did.
Maybe making him a PG will hasten the process.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
As far as the Nash's Suns' offense goes, that wasn't ever really their problem. So I don't see your point there. Paul? I don't know if he has been given much of a fair chance, but then again I'm not the biggest Chris Paul fan. Personally, I think Deron Williams is the best PG in the NBA. Isiah Thomas is a more successful example of what I'm talking about if that's what you need. That's not really the point though, they were just examples of the type of player I was talking about. I find both types to be less than ideal. I'd easily take the four previously mentioned PG's over Iverson though. It took a great coach, a great defense, a shortened season, and a lame Eastern Conference to get Iverson his first and only opportunity to get his *** kicked in the Finals by a real championship offense.
When did Jordan and Bryant start winning championships? When Phil Jackson and the triangle offense came aboard, that's when. When he forced them to stop being selfish and play within a real offensive system. If you think they belong in the same category as Iverson and James, you are greatly mistaken.
It's not about learning how to pass, it's about him learning how to play within a team offense and incorporate his teammates in more than just bailout/spot-up situations. When greatly talented players learn that, then that's when they truly become great players.
Youre seriously suggesting that in order for Tyreke to learn to pass and play with his team, that he should play point guard for the first several years of his career?
I dont understand your point. What youre saying is that when Jordan and Kobe started playing within a team offense, they were able to play within a championship team. Isnt that all the more reason to encourage Tyreke to learn to play within a team offense early on in his career? It completely contradicts what you said about him playing PG to learn how to pass.
Truth is Jordan and Kobe were able to win championships because they stuck to their own position, and dominated within that area of the offense. In turn, it makes it easier improve other areas of their team while still allowing them to stay dominant.
I bolded the part of your post I was responding to. I don't know why you have to mix your argument of "playing within an offensive system" with "the kind of players" within the sytem just to argue about Evans being the "Lebron of PG".
1.) Your post says: " However, I think if you're going to be led by a ball dominant player, I'd rather them have a better mix of passing/scoring like Nash or Paul, rather than someone like Iverson, so the offense doesn't become as stagnant."
So clearly, you were talking about the qualities of your ideal player that you prefer our dominant player Evans to copy as he play within an offensive system. And I disagreed. Nash and Paul's style of play are not the type of ball dominant players that you should want to play for your offensive system for the simple reason that they both led their team no farther than the playoffs.
They are both failures as compared to Lebron and Iverson. Excuse me, but common sense dictates that you would rather have Evans developing into Lebron or Iverson because both have accomplished more than Nash and Paul. As to what offensive system Evans needs to play, I'll say that is another topic.
Now, what have you got for Nash and Paul as your ball dominant players?
Nada.
2.) Your post also says: "This whole thing is not about what's better for Tyreke's stats, it's about what's best for the future of this team, and that should be aimed at winning championships, not Evans having individual success.
If you really care about the future of this team and winning championship, then you would want Evans to develop in the mold of Jordan, Lebron, Bryant, or even Iverson instead of Nash and Paul. Nash and Paul however good they are as PG wasn't able to bring their team to the NBA Finals.
Also, Evans individual success will always translate to team's success.
Do you really think the Cavalier's success has nothing to do with having Lebron James?
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Truth is, Jordan and Kobe had offensive systems tailored to their strengths, and that's exactly what we're trying to do with Evans. Problem is, Westphal isn't Phil Jackson, and he still needs time (and truth be told a better group of players) to build a system around Tyreke that works. What are Tyreke's strengths at the moment? Primarily driving in, drawing attention. So what system would you implement to make use of that? Obviously have him drive in, and either get a easy basket or kick it out after drawing in the defenders. Tyreke's strength is really in getting to the basket - he still has a lot to improve on in terms of finishing once he gets there. With that in mind, you don't want him just making back door cuts or something, you want him with the ball, driving in. And to maximise that, you have to give him the ball outside. So whatever you want to call him, PG, SG whatever, the point is he still has to get the ball on the perimeter and then drive in. If you want we could have Beno bring the ball up and then still give it to Tyreke once he passes half court, but then I don't know what difference that makes.
Here's the problem with Evans now, and it really has nothing to do with us playing him at PG.
1. He dribbles too much and doesn't pass quick enough on the perimeter.
2. Guys don't set good screens, and Evans needs too long to wait for an opening to make his move.
3. As a result, his kickouts often leave little time on the clock left and guys are forced to take the shot
4. His passes are also not as accurate as they could be. He often leaves his feet before passing, resulting in a TO.
The rest of the guys need to set better screens and move more. If you watch our offence, it's always someone has the ball on the perimeter, and only one person moves at a time. We've always got two guys just standing at the 3 point line, then one moves and only after he catches the ball another moves - it's too mechanical, like guys are too fixated on the mechanics of the set play. As the team grows, our offence should look more like this, even with Tyreke as the PG.
1. Tyreke has the ball on the perimeter. Either someone sets a screen for him or he makes a pass and moves to get it back for a different look.
2. With ample time on the shot clock, Tyreke gets in the paint, draws the double or triple team.
3. Kicks it out to the corner to an open shooter
4. Shooter has the option to shoot it or make the extra pass for a better shot
That's really how most offences work. Good screens and kick outs from the paint, be it off dribble penetration or a big man posting and re-posting, backing in and drawing the double. Then the extra pass, and bam.
Seriously, watch how our guys move. It's impossible to "pass and play with his team" when guys are just standing at the corners, not setting screens to get other guys open. Give it time, they'll learn. The problem of ball movement isn't because of Tyreke at PG, the problem is overall player movement, coupled with a little bit of selfishness from Tyreke. Let him continue playing the point, or SG but setting guys up, whatever you want to call it. On his end however, he certainly needs to work on making better passes and decisions, especially not leaving his feet before passing and being less selfish on the break.
Satisfied?
However, the styles of Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton, Terry Porter, Kevin Johnson, and many other "true PGs" have made it to the finals, and some won rings. And the year Iverson led the pathetic East into the playoffs, he wasn't the leader for assists for his team. In fact, he wasn't even in second place, he ranked 3rd behind McKie and Snow. One might argue that he was playing combo guard, if not SG. And they went 1-4 in the finals, which was only surprising in that most people expected them to be swept.
Here's a list of the NBA finalists for the last 20 years, with the name(s) of their assist leader(s) for those years - where there is no clear leader, I may list multiple players who are close to the top, starting with the assist leader and working down. Over half the time (11/20), the winners were playing the Triangle, and the nominal PG was a fairly insignificant role player. In most of the remaining cases, the PG was either an actual PG, or the real PG was someone playing out of position. Out of 40 finalists, in only 4 cases (Detroit, Isiah Thomas, '90/Seattle, Gary Payton, '96/San Antonio, Kidd, '02/NJ, Kidd, '03) was the PG both the assist leader and leading scorer, and in those the player in question was generally considered a true PG despite that.
Here it is, make of it what you will:
1990: POR vs DET: Terry Porter vs Isiah Thomas
1991: LAL vs CHI: Magic Johnson vs Scottie Pippen/MJ
1992: POR vs CHI: Terry Porter/CDrexler vs Scottie/MJ
1993: PHO vs CHI: KJohnson/CBarkley/DMajerle vs Scottie/MJ
1994: HOU vs NYK: Vernon Maxwell/Kenny Smith vs Greg Anthony/John Starks
1995: HOU vs ORL: Sam Cassell/Kenny Smith vs Penny Hardaway/Brian Shaw
1996: SEA vs CHI: Gary Payton vs Scottie/MJ
1997: UTA vs CHI: John Stockton vs Scottie/MJ
1998: UTA vs CHI: John Stockton vs Scottie/MJ
1999: SAS vs NYK: Avery Johnson vs Charlie Ward
2000: LAL vs IND: Kobe/Shaq/RHarper/DFisher vs Mark Jackson
2001: LAL vs PHI: Kobe/Shaq/Fox/Shaw vs McKie/Snow/Iverson
2002: LAL vs NJN: Kobe/Fox/Horry vs Kidd
2003: SAS vs NJN: TParker/TDuncan vs Kidd
2004: LAL vs DET: GPayton/Kobe vs CBillups
2005: SAS vs DET: Parker/Ginobili vs Billups/RHamilton
2006: DAL vs MIA: Terry/Nowitzki vs DWade/JWill/GPayton
2007: SAS vs CLE: TParker/TDuncan/Ginobili vs LBJ/ESnow/LHughes
2008: LAL vs BOS: Kobe/Odom/Fisher/Farmar vs Rondo/Pierce
2009: LAL vs ORL: Kobe/Gasol/Fisher/Odom vs Turkoglu
2010: LAL vs BOS: Kobe/Odom/Artest/Gasol/Fisher vs Rondo
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Compiling long lists of stats and junk is incredibly monotonous, and can lead to obvious, boneheaded mistakes. Fixed. And fixing it strengthened my argument.
I appreciate you taking the time to write out your arguments. Ill reply in bold.
I hope i made it clear why Tyreke at PG causes our offense to look stagnant.
Heres what i want to see more of as we saw some of this yesterday.
Have Tyreke play at the 2 position. Let him get in the high post. Because hes known for his extraordinary ability to drive and get to the hoop, players would be guarding him a bit farther. This is practically giving him the open jumpshot every single time. We can exploit this until it starts to fall in. This force the defense to play him differently. They play him closer so he wont be able to get the free shot. This opens up the chance for him to use his ball handling and driving abilities as its easier to blow by a player who is guarding you close. Thisll make him nearly impossible to guard 1 on 1, which of course opens up many other options to get our team involved.
Let someone else have the responsibility of making plays and distributing the ball. Let Tyreke do what he does best, and at the same time let him develope. This would do a lot more for both the team and Tyreke. We can even start to incorporate DMC into the offense. I see this as the best way that we can utilize both of our stars, and allow us to continue improving/developing our team.
I hope i made it clear why Tyreke at PG causes our offense to look stagnant.
Heres what i want to see more of as we saw some of this yesterday.
Have Tyreke play at the 2 position. Let him get in the high post. Because hes known for his extraordinary ability to drive and get to the hoop, players would be guarding him a bit farther. This is practically giving him the open jumpshot every single time. We can exploit this until it starts to fall in. This force the defense to play him differently. They play him closer so he wont be able to get the free shot. This opens up the chance for him to use his ball handling and driving abilities as its easier to blow by a player who is guarding you close. Thisll make him nearly impossible to guard 1 on 1, which of course opens up many other options to get our team involved.
Let someone else have the responsibility of making plays and distributing the ball. Let Tyreke do what he does best, and at the same time let him develope. This would do a lot more for both the team and Tyreke. We can even start to incorporate DMC into the offense. I see this as the best way that we can utilize both of our stars, and allow us to continue improving/developing our team.
Ah I typed a pretty long reply but my internet died...
Anyway, you have some valid points, and I really think we should experiment both ways with tyreke. I'm not sure why you seem to think that I'm blaming the rest of the guys too much when I clearly stated Tyreke's problems (my saying that his kickouts were too late and all were putting the blame on him) and limitations in his playmaking. Somehow that still comes across to you as me not blaming Tyreke enough?
My point is that no matter who you have playing the point, you can't make passes if guys don't move to get open. If you've got a guy just standing in the corner waiting for you to do something how in the world can you pass him the ball? You said that this should be no surprise since the rest of the guys are just waiting for a kickout from Tyreke. So does this show that the problem is Tyreke's decision making or that the coaches aren't running a different offence?
And yes, I really do think that's a good offence. There's no such thing as an offence being too predictable and thus making it bad. Hell do you think teams playing the Suns with Nash and Stoudemire or the Jazz with Stockton and Malone didn't know what offense they were going to run? It still worked though. I also don't see how that's detrimental to our development, if guys learn to move, make the extra pass and Tyreke learns to initiate the offence earlier. Also, all offences are dependent on the superstar's strength. Teams that don't use their stars' strengths don't win, simple as that. What offence then, wouldn't be predictable and wouldn't be detrimental to the development of the team, pray tell?
Because theyre role playing along Tyreke, it would be dumb for the one or two players to not be at the wing to bail Tyreke out in one of his dribble drives.
Whats your definition of predictable? Steve Nash is anything but predictable. Why do you think teams have a hard time stopping him? Tyreke's dribble drive and kick out or drop off pass is predictable id say.
Our development, and Tyreke's, starts in using him at the 2, im just going to leave it at that as i feel im repeating myself for the 10th time.
Why do you think Tyreke at PG is the best thing for his and the team's development?
Whats your definition of predictable? Steve Nash is anything but predictable. Why do you think teams have a hard time stopping him? Tyreke's dribble drive and kick out or drop off pass is predictable id say.
Our development, and Tyreke's, starts in using him at the 2, im just going to leave it at that as i feel im repeating myself for the 10th time.
Why do you think Tyreke at PG is the best thing for his and the team's development?
If seeing Reke and Paul on the court at the same time did not deliver unto you the reality of what a PG is and does and why Reke struggles at doing that then you will never be able to understand the problem.
If this is another bad, bad losing season, the question must change from "who is the mythical backcourt partner for Tyreke?" to "How can Tyreke improve his game to work with the majority of guards?" That begins with off the ball movement and awareness.
If this is another bad, bad losing season, the question must change from "who is the mythical backcourt partner for Tyreke?" to "How can Tyreke improve his game to work with the majority of guards?" That begins with off the ball movement and awareness.
I never said it was. What I am saying, is that Tyreke has a size advantage at the PG position and also is going to have the ball most of the time, so why not just play him at PG? I think you and I want Tyreke to do the same things, perhaps you just want him to start it at a different position on the court, like at the elbow or something. To me that's fine, as long as he's still getting the ball most of the time and being the one really creating the offense. To me, as long as he does that he's still the PG.
What I don't want is having Tyreke be the typical SG, move without the ball, come off screens and shoot, make backdoor cuts etc. If you're telling me you want Tyreke at SG playing like Kobe or Jordan then I'm fine with it, but if you're suggesting (and I don't mean you in particular, just towards the general idea of Reke as a SG) that he play like Ray Allen, Ginobili, Rip, Kevin Martin etc then I don't think that is good for the team at all. Most of the SGs in the league IMO move more without the ball and take more outside shots. THAT, is what I'm against.
I did. Find where I disagreed with you about him playing there. In my first post I said " Let him continue playing the point, or SG but setting guys up, whatever you want to call it. On his end however, he certainly needs to work on making better passes and decisions, especially not leaving his feet before passing and being less selfish on the break."
I try to form objective opinions. Please do not treat me like a fool.
And I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. I was simply trying to point out that it's not really ridiculous to have Evans play PG, since he's going to have the ball in his hands most of the time. Whether or not playing him at SG instead would be better for his development I really don't know, all I'm saying is it can work but no matter what he has to have the ball a lot. Perhaps my replies always quoting your posts made you misinterpret that I was trying to argue with you over your main point. Rather I was replying to your initial reply to my post. I thought I made it fairly clear by saying "Anyway, you have some valid points, and I really think we should experiment both ways with tyreke." as well as "but if you're suggesting (and I don't mean you in particular, just towards the general idea of Reke as a SG) that he play like Ray Allen, Ginobili, Rip, Kevin Martin etc then I don't think that is good for the team at all".
Anyway, never mind I get your point and you should get mine now. Moving on...
As much as I dislike Kobe, I've got to hand it to him (actually, Phil Jackson probably deserves most of the credit) for how he has matured, and this quote is a great example of why LeBron can't lead a team to a championship, and why I personally wouldn't want Tyreke to be "our LeBron":
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AnDzrCMBYVY6EIFClIGBwsy8vLYF?slug=aw-kobebryantchat112310
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AnDzrCMBYVY6EIFClIGBwsy8vLYF?slug=aw-kobebryantchat112310
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Kobe at LeBron's age still WAS LeBron. Let alone at Tyreke's age.
Partially true. When Kobe was LeBron's age he wasn't making his teammates better but he also wasn't even thinking about that. LeBron sets up guys and thinks that his assists are enough to make his teammates better, while not realizing that by being the only guy that makes the decisions, his supporting cast and the team in general will never get better. It's easier to change something about yourself when that thing was never on your agenda than to change something about yourself that you thought you were really great at even though you actually sucked at it. Who knows if LeBron will ever change?
The point is, though, Tyreke should not wait 10 years to learn that lesson (and the organization shouldn't wait 10 years to teach him that lesson either). He should learn from others' mistakes and choose to develop into the type of player that helps his team maximize its potential, rather than the player who thinks he is a team guy just because he's got lots of assists on his stat sheet.
est.1999
Starter
Kobe's had a far superior coach than lebron for most of his career and has had a superstar teammate for most of his career. What's to make you think that it's Kobe alone transforming his teammates?
He did say "As much as I dislike Kobe, I've got to hand it to him (actually, Phil Jackson probably deserves most of the credit) for how he has matured"
KingsCitizen
Starter
Wow this thread has gone from focusing on "Tyreke is damn talent at PG, just like Lebron at SF" to something like "Tyreke should not be a selfish ***** like Lebron because I just hate Lebron".
If Reke does not warrant a place being a PG, why do other team's forum and NBA commentators keep comparing him to the likes of Wall, Curry, Rose, etc.
Just because he is too big that does not mean he should just be SG or forward. If such is the case, Dirk should be playing C, Ben Gordon should be a PG, and Magic should have just played PF.
He may not be able to match against some PGs but he will also certainly give them back that mismatch.
If Reke does not warrant a place being a PG, why do other team's forum and NBA commentators keep comparing him to the likes of Wall, Curry, Rose, etc.
Just because he is too big that does not mean he should just be SG or forward. If such is the case, Dirk should be playing C, Ben Gordon should be a PG, and Magic should have just played PF.
He may not be able to match against some PGs but he will also certainly give them back that mismatch.
Who hates Lebron here? Everyone knows hes the best individual player right now, but hes not the best team player.
So your argument is "because everybody else calls him a PG then hes a PG" ?
Ive been watching Reke for the past year and a half, and i think i have learned enough to say that it is not the best position for us to play him at PG, but rather the SG position.
Im just going to keep asking this until someone gives me a solid answer: Why does anyone think Tyreke is good at being a PG?
Being a PG is more than just matching up with the other guy; the Pg position is obviously a special one that deserves a special kind of skillset, so you cant say that he is a mismatch for other PG's simply because he can physically overwhelm them. He can beat them at that game yes, but the other PG will beat Tyreke at setting up his teammates, making his teammates better, cntroling the tempo of the offense, ball distribution, making decisions that help out the team, and other areas that I see Tyreke as lacking. Hes been playing PG for at least 2 years ( thanks to whoever corrected me in the other thread) and he plays like he hasnt the slightest idea of how to run an offense. And youre asking me why shouldnt he play that position? My question to you is: Why isnt he playing SG and improving his skillset through there?
This may not mean anythingat all but im going to say it. Its not surprise that the position that gets the most limelight is the PG position given the state of today's basketball game. I just hope that doesnt have anything to do with Reke playing that position.
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