Trading the pick.

#31
DAL Gets: Richaun Holmes & Trey Lyles
DAL Gives: Dwight Powell & #23

IND Gets: Dwight Powell, Davion Mitchell, Mo Harkless, Alex Len, #23, & 2023 TOR 1st (Top 14 Protected)
IND Gives: Malcolm Brogdon & Myles Turner

SAC Gets: Pascal Siakam, Fred VanVleet, Malcolm Brogdon, & Myles Turner
SAC Gives: De’Aaron Fox, Domantas Sabonis, Richaun Holmes, Davion Mitchell, Mo Harkless, Alex Len, Trey Lyles, Chimezie Metu, & #6

TOR Gets: De’Aaron Fox, Domantas Sabonis, Chimezie Metu, & #6
TOR Gives: Pascal Siakam, Fred VanVleet, & 2023 TOR 1st (Top 14 Protected)




PG - VanVleet / Divincenzo
SG - Brogdon / Davis
SF - Barnes / Holiday
PF - Siakam
C - Turner

That’d be a pretty solid team with tons of defense, shooting, playmaking, high IQ, and scoring options. The bench would even be solid with Divincenzo, Davis, & Holiday.
 
#32
DAL Gets: Richaun Holmes & Trey Lyles
DAL Gives: Dwight Powell & #23

IND Gets: Dwight Powell, Davion Mitchell, Mo Harkless, Alex Len, #23, & 2023 TOR 1st (Top 14 Protected)
IND Gives: Malcolm Brogdon & Myles Turner

SAC Gets: Pascal Siakam, Fred VanVleet, Malcolm Brogdon, & Myles Turner
SAC Gives: De’Aaron Fox, Domantas Sabonis, Richaun Holmes, Davion Mitchell, Mo Harkless, Alex Len, Trey Lyles, Chimezie Metu, & #6

TOR Gets: De’Aaron Fox, Domantas Sabonis, Chimezie Metu, & #6
TOR Gives: Pascal Siakam, Fred VanVleet, & 2023 TOR 1st (Top 14 Protected)




PG - VanVleet / Divincenzo
SG - Brogdon / Davis
SF - Barnes / Holiday
PF - Siakam
C - Turner

That’d be a pretty solid team with tons of defense, shooting, playmaking, high IQ, and scoring options. The bench would even be solid with Divincenzo, Davis, & Holiday.
Lol also completely unrealistic
 
#34
Lol also completely unrealistic
Yeah not denying that but feel like the value all around is pretty good.

A simplified version of this is…

IND Gets: Davion Mitchell
SAC Gets: Malcolm Brogdon

and

DAL Gets: Richaun Holmes
SAC Gets: Pascal Siakam
TOR Gets: Dwight Powell, 2022 SAC 1st, 2022 DAL 1st, & 2023 SAC 1st (Top 4 Protected)


PG - Fox / Divincenzo
SG - Brogdon / Davis
SF - Barnes / Holiday / Harkless
PF - Siakam / Lyles / Metu
C - Sabonis / Len

I think Siakam is the hold up though. I don’t think Toronto is looking to move him unfortunately.
 
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#36
DAL Gets: Richaun Holmes & Trey Lyles
DAL Gives: Dwight Powell & #23

IND Gets: Dwight Powell, Davion Mitchell, Mo Harkless, Alex Len, #23, & 2023 TOR 1st (Top 14 Protected)
IND Gives: Malcolm Brogdon & Myles Turner

SAC Gets: Pascal Siakam, Fred VanVleet, Malcolm Brogdon, & Myles Turner
SAC Gives: De’Aaron Fox, Domantas Sabonis, Richaun Holmes, Davion Mitchell, Mo Harkless, Alex Len, Trey Lyles, Chimezie Metu, & #6

TOR Gets: De’Aaron Fox, Domantas Sabonis, Chimezie Metu, & #6
TOR Gives: Pascal Siakam, Fred VanVleet, & 2023 TOR 1st (Top 14 Protected)




PG - VanVleet / Divincenzo
SG - Brogdon / Davis
SF - Barnes / Holiday
PF - Siakam
C - Turner

That’d be a pretty solid team with tons of defense, shooting, playmaking, high IQ, and scoring options. The bench would even be solid with Divincenzo, Davis, & Holiday.
FBI starts showing up at random places to question TOR if they pull that off.
 
#37
I'm actually surprised by Sabonis' defensive impact numbers this season:

LA-DRAPM = +0.56 (79th in league)
DLEBRON = +0.74 (91st in league)
DRPM = +3.80 (29th in league)
DRAPTOR = +1.90 (42nd in league)

Even his 3 year averages of these numbers aren't bad:

LA-DRAPM = +0.60
DLEBRON = +1.12
DRPM = +2.88
DRAPTOR = +0.80

That doesn't scream liability and makes me second guess this team's defensive potential with Sabonis at C. He does move his feet decently well for a guy with his size & strength, has held up well against Jokic defensively, and is terrific at ending possessions with a defensive rebound. Makes me more open to the idea of bringing Collins aboard.

The one thing about Collins that I like is that he seems to be improving each year which is a good type to bet on. His defense has improved, his shooting has improved, and now his passing has improved this year.

If we were to trade for Collins, we almost have to include Holmes for salary purposes. ATL won't be interested in Holmes with Capela and Okongwu already there so it would have to be something like:

Kings Gets: John Collins & Team X Asset/Pick
Kings Gives: Richaun Holmes, Mo Harkless, Alex Len, & 2022 SAC 1st

ATL Gets: Team X Filler & 2022 SAC 1st
ATL Gives: John Collins

Team X Gets: Richaun Holmes, Mo Harkless, & Alex Len
Team X Gives: Team X Filler & Team X Asset/Pick


Having said that, I'd rather us...
  • Draft someone like AJ Griffin or Keegan Murray with our pick
  • Trade Holmes for Powell & 2022 DAL 1st (currently tied for 20th)
  • Draft someone like EJ Liddell or Kendall Brown with the DAL pick
  • Resign DiVincenzo to a long term bargain deal
...and rollout a 2022-23 roster of:

PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Holiday / Divincenzo
SF - Griffin / Davis / Harkless
PF - Barnes / Liddell / Lyles / Metu
C - Sabonis / Len

Then next offseason rolls around and we would have around $40 mil in cap space with the following players under contract: Sabonis, Fox, DiVincenzo, Mitchell, 2022 SAC 1st, 2022 DAL 1st, & 2023 SAC 1st. If we strike out on a big name in free agency, we could still resign Barnes with our cap space. If the concern is Sabonis leaving, you'd have Mitchell, 2022 SAC 1st, 2022 DAL 1st, 2023 SAC 1st, 2024 SAC 1st, 2026 SAC 1st, 2028 SAC 1st, & 2030 SAC 1st as rookie contracts/picks that could be used to bring in immediate help.

But I agree. It would be a bummer to not try and land someone in free agency before looking to move our young assets/picks. You could potentially sign both Jerami Grant and Barnes with that cap space without giving up any assets.

PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Divincenzo
SF - Barnes / Griffin
PF - Grant / Liddell
C - Sabonis
you don’t trade a top 5 pick unless you are getting an all-star. Collins isn’t an all-star.
 
#39
Who said we’d trade a top 5 pick for him?
Also a top 4 pick makes more sense here, if you land 5th pick the cream of the crop is basically off the board at this point most likely (Ivey, Banchero included) so they are essentially saying they wouldn’t trade AJ Griffin, Keegan Murray, or Johnny Davis for Collins because he is a fringe all star who hasn’t been selected at this point in his career…I’m not sure any 3 of those players I named as possibilities at #5 are all star locks either.
 
#40
Also a top 4 pick makes more sense here, if you land 5th pick the cream of the crop is basically off the board at this point most likely (Ivey, Banchero included) so they are essentially saying they wouldn’t trade AJ Griffin, Keegan Murray, or Johnny Davis for Collins because he is a fringe all star who hasn’t been selected at this point in his career…I’m not sure any 3 of those players I named as possibilities at #5 are all star locks either.
I was thinking we’d be more around 8-12 after the trade but we’ve been maintaining the tank. I do prefer to just draft at where we land and attempt to use that cap space in the 2023 off-season to bring in another solid player without surrendering assets.
 
#41
Would you guys trade it for Jonathon Isaac? its risky with his injury history but he looks like a pretty great fit at the 4. Fox/DDV/Barnes/Isaac/Sabonis.
 
#42
Would you guys trade it for Jonathon Isaac? its risky with his injury history but he looks like a pretty great fit at the 4. Fox/DDV/Barnes/Isaac/Sabonis.
If it's #7 or worse, I think McNair trades the pick. Desperation brings desperate measures. John Collins or Jeramy Grant the likely targets. Though he might get creative and go after Anounby or Dort. But creativity isn't really his thing, so likely the first two. Then he'll turn around and max Miles Bridges.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#43
Would you guys trade it for Jonathon Isaac? its risky with his injury history but he looks like a pretty great fit at the 4. Fox/DDV/Barnes/Isaac/Sabonis.
Dude hasn't played since the bubble and is on an absolutely terrible contract plus now comes with a massive amount of political baggage that would absolutely not be fun to deal with.

People liked to complain about Bagley always being injured? Well, Isaac only played 27 games of his rookie season, half of his third season and has entirely missed his 4th and 5th seasons in the league.

Considering he's still got 3 years and 52 million dollars left on his contract, Orlando should be trading us their pick for taking him off their payroll.
 
#44
If it's #7 or worse, I think McNair trades the pick. Desperation brings desperate measures. John Collins or Jeramy Grant the likely targets. Though he might get creative and go after Anounby or Dort. But creativity isn't really his thing, so likely the first two. Then he'll turn around and max Miles Bridges.
OG would be sick.. this team just needs a freak like Kirilenko. for the love of god find us our freak monte!
 
#45
OG would be sick.. this team just needs a freak like Kirilenko. for the love of god find us our freak monte!
OG would work well on this roster. But he'd need to be creative with Toronto.

McNair had an opp to get a close version of Kirlinko in Herb Jones last year. Especially defensively and his ability to drive and produce as a 6'8 wing. This year, the player who I think can come close as a modern version is Mathew Mayer--better shooter than Kirlinko, decent handles, probably will always be a full tick below AK defensively though.
 
#46
OG would work well on this roster. But he'd need to be creative with Toronto.

McNair had an opp to get a close version of Kirlinko in Herb Jones last year. Especially defensively and his ability to drive and produce as a 6'8 wing. This year, the player who I think can come close as a modern version is Mathew Mayer--better shooter than Kirlinko, decent handles, probably will always be a full tick below AK defensively though.
his mullet is glorious. draft that man!
 
#47
Dude hasn't played since the bubble and is on an absolutely terrible contract plus now comes with a massive amount of political baggage that would absolutely not be fun to deal with.

People liked to complain about Bagley always being injured? Well, Isaac only played 27 games of his rookie season, half of his third season and has entirely missed his 4th and 5th seasons in the league.

Considering he's still got 3 years and 52 million dollars left on his contract, Orlando should be trading us their pick for taking him off their payroll.
If Monte traded a shot at Davis/Mathurin/Griffin/Murray/Agbaji for Isaac that would be such a set back.
 
#50
If Monte traded a shot at Davis/Mathurin/Griffin/Murray/Agbaji for Isaac that would be such a set back.
The buy-low in an Isaac deal would be trading all the enders (Holiday, Len, Harkless) for Isaac and just gambling the future cap space. If he worked out, you'd never be able to come close to Isaac talent in FA and he's obviously the perfect glove fit at the 4. If not, you're tied to the contract obviously.

But yea, I'm not giving value outside of enders. I'd probably want a future first too.
 
#51
The buy-low in an Isaac deal would be trading all the enders (Holiday, Len, Harkless) for Isaac and just gambling the future cap space. If he worked out, you'd never be able to come close to Isaac talent in FA and he's obviously the perfect glove fit at the 4. If not, you're tied to the contract obviously.

But yea, I'm not giving value outside of enders. I'd probably want a future first too.
I love Isaac's game, but I just don't really see him being traded this offseason. Teams are not going to want to pay anything of significance for him due to his injury history and Orlando shouldn't really be in a rush to sell low on him considering they're not feeling the pressure to try and be a contender next season and he's still young enough to align with their rebuild.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#53
Enders for a first you could do worse although I'm not entirely sure what the off court issues are and I would say hard no to those. We're finally getting rid of the rot.
On the one hand, at least it’s not legal trouble. On the other hand, the political discourse whenever Isaac does anything would make the uproar and fighting over the Grant Napear firing look like nothing.
 
#55
On the one hand, at least it’s not legal trouble. On the other hand, the political discourse whenever Isaac does anything would make the uproar and fighting over the Grant Napear firing look like nothing.
Not everyone is going to have the political/religious beliefs wrapped up in nice little package to make everyone happy.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#56
Not everyone is going to have the political/religious beliefs wrapped up in nice little package to make everyone happy.
Lol of course not but it’s one thing if you’re Kyrie and one of the top 20 players in the league and it’s another thing when you’ve missed most of your first five seasons in the league with a variety of injuries.

I’m just saying that I’m wary of picking up Isaac because I don’t want to deal with five pages worth of posts whenever Isaac goes to a rally or says something provocative in addition to the long contract and injury issues.
 
#57
If it's #7 or worse, I think McNair trades the pick. Desperation brings desperate measures. John Collins or Jeramy Grant the likely targets. Though he might get creative and go after Anounby or Dort. But creativity isn't really his thing, so likely the first two. Then he'll turn around and max Miles Bridges.
You sound disappointed with a possible domas/Collins/bridges/DDV or davion/fox lineup
 
#58
If you're Monte and your first two lottery picks were (1) Haliburton, who was in the mix for RoY then netted Sabonis in a trade just a year and a half into his career and (2) Mitchell, who finished out the season looking like a future star while delivering consistently excellent on-ball defense on a team that needs stand out defenders desperately...

Do you really want to trade this pick? He's 2 for 2 so far in finding instant contributors who have outpaced the value of their draft slots. For all the wailing last July about PG logjams and wasting picks on undersized backup players, he managed to sort that out in less than a season. Eventually the team he's put together is going to have to start winning to justify further investment in him as a GM but if he continues to draft well he's going to keep his job. I think you could argue that the only thing standing between this team and the playoffs for the past 12-15 years has been an inability to identify NBA talent in the draft.
 
#59
If you're Monte and your first two lottery picks were (1) Haliburton, who was in the mix for RoY then netted Sabonis in a trade just a year and a half into his career and (2) Mitchell, who finished out the season looking like a future star while delivering consistently excellent on-ball defense on a team that needs stand out defenders desperately...

Do you really want to trade this pick? He's 2 for 2 so far in finding instant contributors who have outpaced the value of their draft slots. For all the wailing last July about PG logjams and wasting picks on undersized backup players, he managed to sort that out in less than a season. Eventually the team he's put together is going to have to start winning to justify further investment in him as a GM but if he continues to draft well he's going to keep his job. I think you could argue that the only thing standing between this team and the playoffs for the past 12-15 years has been an inability to identify NBA talent in the draft.
If he can get a plus starter who is in his prime and signed for a reasonable length, I am sure Monte will do it. I don’t think there are more than a couple guys who fit that criteria, so he will likely just make the pick.
 
#60
You sound disappointed with a possible domas/Collins/bridges/DDV or davion/fox lineup
Not disappointed. About what I would expect from a middling, desperate GM—overpay for good, but not great talent, put the team in salary cap hell for the next 5 yrs, but guarantee a bottom tier playoff team that makes the 6-10 playoff spot each yr. Abracadabra: Treadmill Hell.