Trade Martin? (split from game thread)

[Bricklayer]

What about bringing Martin off the bench? I couldn't disagree more with Martin being at best a 6th man, but it might not be such a bad idea to try it out on this team. Think Manu Ginobli on the Spurs... I've also noticed in Martin's few games off the bench in the last few years were some of his best games... meaning his production doesn't seem to suffer all that much unlike some players (cough John Salmons cough). Actually, thinking about it, I like Westphals philosophy right now of no real set in stone rotations. We play one guy one night, and another guy a different night... whatever wins the game. I think I'll just trust Westphal to sort it all out.

And as for that, while he has shown explosive ability off the bench, I would say its mre than obvious that a star player on a bad team is not going to just accept 6th man duty after being touted as the face of the franchise (sad and inadequate for that role he may have been).

And its also a waste of resources. If Kevin can either a) be turned over via trade into a starter/foundational player that fits, or b) be turned into a 6th man, no matter how good, you are far better off with a), and so is Kevin for that matter. This is professional sports, the NBA, there is no rule whatsoever that just because you have a player you have to keep him forever and just find places to put him.

 

[AleksandarN]

Steven Hunter
7-0 C from DePaul
2.2 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.0 apg in 7.6 minutes

Marko Jaric
6-7 SG from Serbia-Montenegro (Foreign)
No games yet played in 2009-2010

O.J. Mayo
6-4 SG from USC
18.0 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 3.3 apg in 37.7 minutes

For

Beno Udrih
6-3 PG from Slovenia (Foreign)
12.3 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.7 apg in 26.1 minutes

Kevin Martin
6-7 SG from Western Carolina
30.6 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 2.6 apg in 41.7 minutes

 

[M_Barragan]

They won't give up Mayo... Tyreke would def have to take over PG full time with mayo on board.

Mayo sure can shoot though... would be a scary combo

 

[drboiffard]

I'd wait the two months he'll be injured. We shoudn't get excited with this two games in a row.

But I do think it's a good idea to trade him to get a center with some guarantees, specially thinking in a long term (the main point should be rebuilding the team with a young rooster).

Marc Gasol is flourishing this year, he's getting very high in the rebounders list, and although his ppg aren't too much, the fact is he isn't shooting too much, but his are % quite good.

Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 09-10 MEM 7 7 35.7 0.554 0.000 0.800 3.6 8.3 11.9 1.7 1.3 1.6 2.3 3.6 15.4

 

[Oprostaj]

Steven Hunter
7-0 C from DePaul
2.2 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.0 apg in 7.6 minutes

Marko Jaric
6-7 SG from Serbia-Montenegro (Foreign)
No games yet played in 2009-2010

O.J. Mayo
6-4 SG from USC
18.0 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 3.3 apg in 37.7 minutes

For

Beno Udrih
6-3 PG from Slovenia (Foreign)
12.3 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.7 apg in 26.1 minutes

Kevin Martin
6-7 SG from Western Carolina
30.6 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 2.6 apg in 41.7 minutes

This puzzles me... not only do we get a worse scorer in return, but the big man is a backup at best. I mean, I like Mayo, but so far Martin has proven to be a better scorer. Mayo does have that wonderful upside, but as of right now not sure why we do this. We don't HAVE to get rid of martin. We have a wonderful ability to wait and see what we will do, and in the meantime Martin can keep scoring 25 ppg. It's not like Mayo is a full time PG or a lockdown defender. You could probably play him and Evans together and reverse their roles on D, but from what I've seen, Mayo is no Gary Payton, so not sure what you get swapping him with Martin. Unless the whole point of this is to get Hunter?!?

 

[SacKings7]

I agree with Oprostaj. This seems like trading just for the sake of trading, and doesn't really benefit us

 

[beb0p]

Has anyone thought what the thinking might be if for some strange reason this young team went on a tear and lets say was over 500 when Martin's ready to come back. Would that change the Kings outlook? Yeah, I know thats not likely to happen. But what if?

Oh yeah, it changes the outlook tremendously. It makes the Kings a major player in next summer's free agency because Sacramento will be much more attractive as a .500 team.

In that scenario, I'd keep Martin (at least thru the summer) for the sake of preserving talent, unless in mid season some team trades a young All-Star big man for him which I doubt is going to happen. Good players like to play with other good players, so when the Kings approach Lebron/Bosh/Wade/Joe Johnson, etc and say, "Come to Sacramento and play with the best young team in the NBA and win a championship.", we'd be taken seriously.

KMart becomes expandable, in the sense that he can be used as a sign-n-trade for Wade/Bosh/whoever (KMart is not a bad replacement for a team losing a bona-fide All-Star, it could be an x-factor). Or Kmart can come off the bench and be the NBA's best sixth man. Or He remains a starter.

 

[hammystyle]

This puzzles me... not only do we get a worse scorer in return, but the big man is a backup at best. I mean, I like Mayo, but so far Martin has proven to be a better scorer. Mayo does have that wonderful upside, but as of right now not sure why we do this. We don't HAVE to get rid of martin. We have a wonderful ability to wait and see what we will do, and in the meantime Martin can keep scoring 25 ppg. It's not like Mayo is a full time PG or a lockdown defender. You could probably play him and Evans together and reverse their roles on D, but from what I've seen, Mayo is no Gary Payton, so not sure what you get swapping him with Martin. Unless the whole point of this is to get Hunter?!?

Actually Mayo's supposed to be a pretty good defender. He's also an excellent shooter and while not a pure point, can handle the ball well enough to start the offense. This is EXACTLY the type of player we should try to pair with Tyreke. It'd be tough to find a better one really.

That said he's five years younger and cheaper so there's no way the Grizzlies would trade him.

 

[Oprostaj]

So... Wade will leave Miami... where upon all the greatness of the city he doesn't have to pay taxes... to come play for Sacramento? I know what you're trying to say, but unless we can offer double of what other teams are offering, you will be very hard pressed for any of the major players to come here. The city is not in good shape, the arena is not in good shape, the team will be one year removed from "worst team in NBA", and we won't be able to spend as much or offer as much to players to come here. Players like playing with good players, yes, but we don't have many of those on our team as of yet. We have promise, but that's an altogether different beast. This FA frenzy will pass us by, as it should. If we play .500 ball it will be a minor miracle, a boost to us fans, but it will be like a ripple in the ocean compared to the rest of the leauge. Doesn't Miami only have something like 3-4 players under contract??? Come on man if someone said come play for Pat Riley, in MIAMI, and don't pay taxes... where would you go?

 

[Oprostaj]

Actually Mayo's supposed to be a pretty good defender. He's also an excellent shooter and while not a pure point, can handle the ball well enough to start the offense. This is EXACTLY the type of player we should try to pair with Tyreke. It'd be tough to find a better one really.

That said he's five years younger and cheaper so there's no way the Grizzlies would trade him.

yes but a lot of those are "ifs", "maybes" and looking to the future. Mayo's supposed to be a good defender. He is not a lockdown one or one that can hide our perimiter defincies as a team and prevent our bigs for being driven upon. He is a very good shooter, not an excellent one, not yet anyway - many players are good shooters, and keep in mind that Mayo is not exactly lighting up the leauge. This is a tough one. He has all the makings of a great scorer (like a young Carmelo without the size), but trading Martin for him right now would not make sense. Think about it, Martin is averaging 30 PPG... even if he doesn't keep that up, combine that with his relatively moderate contract compared to some other underperforming players and we should be able to get more.

things change if you start micromanaging this... for example, salary cap will go down, so Martin's deal looks worse with each passing year, especially since he is noted to be one dimentional (altough he has made a concious effort to hit the boards this year) Mayo is younger, and with every year his game should expand. Could end up being one of those explosive combo guards that can play the point just as well - those are always in demand. Especially if he focuses on his D. However, you figure he will only get better and will want some sort of max deal (don't they all...) so is it worth it?

 

[beb0p]

So... Wade will leave Miami... where upon all the greatness of the city he doesn't have to pay taxes... to come play for Sacramento? I know what you're trying to say, but unless we can offer double of what other teams are offering, you will be very hard pressed for any of the major players to come here. The city is not in good shape, the arena is not in good shape, the team will be one year removed from "worst team in NBA", and we won't be able to spend as much or offer as much to players to come here. Players like playing with good players, yes, but we don't have many of those on our team as of yet. We have promise, but that's an altogether different beast. This FA frenzy will pass us by, as it should. If we play .500 ball it will be a minor miracle, a boost to us fans, but it will be like a ripple in the ocean compared to the rest of the leauge. Doesn't Miami only have something like 3-4 players under contract??? Come on man if someone said come play for Pat Riley, in MIAMI, and don't pay taxes... where would you go?

I knew once I mentioned Wade that someone is going to latch onto that name as if I meant Wade is surely salivating about coming to Sac. Your're right, he probably won't come. Same with Lebron and several others. But it doesn't mean not a single good FA out there won't want to come here. Remember a guy named Vlade Divac? For every guy like Ron Artest there is a player like KG - someone who doesn't need the glorification of playing in a big city. Plus, I'm tired of the inferiority complex in Sacramento. I don't live in Sacto anymore but I think Sac is a great place to play bball and a step up for some players. If you have a choice between playing in Sac Town or Memphis, which one would you choose?

There are going to be a lot of movement in the summer. The top names are going to get most of the attention and money. Some good FAs are going to be overshadowed and left under the radar. The thing is, being a .500 team would help the Kings' case.

 

[Oprostaj]

Ok you are right as well. I did not mean to bash Sacramento. I have been there numerous times and I love the city and the atmosphere. You, again are correct in saying that not all players love the glitz and glam. However, KG is not a prime example. KG wanted a ring. I am quite positive KG would have accepted playing for anybody if it meant a chance at a ring. He is one of the few that are loyal (or were loyal until he got fed up, can't say I blame him) But, if this is a realistic conversation... Majority of the top players want exposure, be it because they like it, endorsements, whatever. Sacramento is a fine town, but a media spotlight it is not. I didn't mean to latch on to Wade, but there is an upper tier (Wade, Lebron, Kobe if he doesn't resign, I would even put Bosh up there when he wants to try) that wouldn't even consider signing here. Again, we are not a good team. We hold the title of "worst" until it is taken away from us at the end of the season. Our best player is a pure scorer that is in danger of having his spot in the rotation taken. We CANNOT offer as much money as can other teams. I understand your viewpoint, but it would be foolish to think we can get a top tier guy here without a lot of magic. I would not be interested in Joe Johnson. He's an oversized wing SG that can score in bunches and disappear just as much.

 

[Spike]

Evans and Martin might = oil and water. And, Evans and Beno might = Bacon and Eggs. They taste different, but they go together. Not saying its true. But, and I can't resist. Its food for thought...

Huevos con chorizo, mi amigo. In terms of complementary parts, I do see how Garcia would be a better fit than Martin with Evans. Earlier Beno made comments about being "able to be a point guard this year." Let's not underestimate what coaching has done. It could be that the scheme being asked of them is more in line with their skill set, creating a better looking unit.

FTR, I will always be in the "sell high" camp, just because it makes sense from a business standpoint - if you can get a great deal for Kevin, go for it. Do I want him to leave just because there is better ball movement? No, that's silly. Kevin needs to be the complementary piece of a playoff team, one that would be willing to give us a promising youth (who doesn't get much PT ala Donte Greene, but obviously someone of a higher potential caliber) and draft picks. Problem is, people in that boat don't necessarily have good picks. Is there a young Wallace or Turkoglu rotting on someone's bench somewhere?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

FTR, I will always be in the "sell high" camp, just because it makes sense from a business standpoint

My question is how much is back to back injuries that eat up a significant chunk of season going to cut into Kevin's trade value? I think the sell high point was 2-3 seasons ago, I'm not convinced we could get an established big man for Kevin though we might be able to get a lotto pick and grab another player that compliments the two young bigs we have and gives us a long term 3 man rotation.

 

[Oprostaj]

Kevin has been arguably played his best basketball before the inury. He needs a full healthy season and he would be a very valuable trade asset. Let's say he comes back and tears up the leauge - you're telling me there won't be some GM wanting to pull the trigger on a still young, about to enter his prime scorer

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Our best player is a pure scorer that is in danger of having his spot in the rotation taken.

Whoa there! Whether you're talking about Kevin or Tyreke (it's honestly not clear, though I side with Kevin) I think it's safe to say that nobody's rotation spot is going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[nickmcclure]

I don't think its a matter of pointing fingers and delegating fault. Sometimes, for better or worse, some things just fit together better, and then the result is better. When Martins on the floor, he's the focus of the other teams defense. Especially on the perimiter. If the ball movement stops with him, then we suddenly get easier to guard. Without him on the floor, at least so far, there's been better ball movement, and for whatever reason, better spacing. And now were harder to defend.

That doesn't mean that Martin couldn't adapt his game to fit. But he would probably have to sacrifice some of his scoring.

You have a very good point my friend

 

[Bricklayer]

Kevin has been arguably played his best basketball before the inury. He needs a full healthy season and he would be a very valuable trade asset. Let's say he comes back and tears up the leauge - you're telling me there won't be some GM wanting to pull the trigger on a still young, about to enter his prime scorer

That "let's say" isn't going to happen. Kevin was playing very well for those first 5 games -- not the first time in his career he has started fast BTW before fading a bit, normally comes off the DL sprinting too but can't sustain. But Kevin was playing very well...as we were still losing in an offensive system where he was taking all of the shots and nobody else was averaging more than 11pts/gm. Suffice it to say that will NEVER happen again. Not with Reke blowing up, not with all the other young players stepping up and getting used to being part of the offense over the next 8 weeks. And that does not mean that Kevin will average 15ppg. But it does mean that the 30ppg was a short term aberration, and really just a hot week when you get down to it (his better all around effort in other aspects hopefully being more long term).

Now he should be able to come back and average 20ppg, because he's a 20ppg type scorer in this league. And realistically if he averages 20ppg for the rest of the season its not going to depress his value THAT much more -- he's already got the good numbers on a bad team and injury prone warts on display. Having his scoring dip for a few months isn't going to totally tank him. But its also not likely to help, and frankly Kevin may not really be an object anymore. I am watching Reke closely now -- if he continues on this arc, then Kevin's pts, or lack thereof, are irrelevant. Then all that will matter is getting the best fit next to Reke, and forming up a defensive squad tough enoguh to matter -- because make no mistake, no defense = no joy no matter how pretty the scoring. Reke is willing. Now he needs help.

Depending on how our record goes here -- because if we win enough we lose one of these, we could have 3 major assets next year with which to finsih this rebuld and start the climb:

1) enough cap room for a major free agent
2) Top 10 (hopefull Top 5) draft pick
3) Kevin Martin as potential tradebait

That's a lot of assets to go on top of the young nucleus, and you want to be bold with them. The last thing you want to do is get struck back in 35-45 win mode with no obvious path up.

 

[AleksandarN]

This puzzles me... not only do we get a worse scorer in return, but the big man is a backup at best. I mean, I like Mayo, but so far Martin has proven to be a better scorer. Mayo does have that wonderful upside, but as of right now not sure why we do this. We don't HAVE to get rid of martin. We have a wonderful ability to wait and see what we will do, and in the meantime Martin can keep scoring 25 ppg. It's not like Mayo is a full time PG or a lockdown defender. You could probably play him and Evans together and reverse their roles on D, but from what I've seen, Mayo is no Gary Payton, so not sure what you get swapping him with Martin. Unless the whole point of this is to get Hunter?!?

Mayo would be perfect for Evans. Also we shed a year in contract with Beno and Jaric plus on top of that we shed about another 4 million in cap space for next year.

 

[Nighthawk1]

I still personally think the best trade for us would be with Utah and snagging NY's draft pick in the process...

To Utah: KMart, Nocioni, KT
To Sac: Boozer, AK47, Maynor, Fresenko, NY's draft pick

Utah saves money, gets a great backcourt that can score (even though their defense might waver a little). I think they're actually better off with Noc then AK47 at this point in their careers - tough and never gives upand plays pestering D.. They should still be in the hunt for the playoffs but with quite a bit more money to go after a real free agent in the offseason.

Sac gains: Boozer rental, AK47 (large expiring in 2011 if I'm not mistaken), a legit 7 footer, PG prospect, but most importantly another lottery bound draft pick meaning another chance at Wall/Favors/Aldritch/Davis etc..

Then again we never know, Boozer might like it here and ruin our chances at a lottery spot but I am not sure I'll cry about
JT/Hawes/Fresenko
Boozer/Greene
AK47/Casspi
Cisco/Udoka
Evans/Beno/SRod/Maynor

 

[AleksandarN]

I still personally think the best trade for us would be with Utah and snagging NY's draft pick in the process...

To Utah: KMart, Nocioni, KT
To Sac: Boozer, AK47, Maynor, Fresenko, NY's draft pick

Utah saves money, gets a great backcourt that can score (even though their defense might waver a little). I think they're actually better off with Noc then AK47 at this point in their careers - tough and never gives upand plays pestering D.. They should still be in the hunt for the playoffs but with quite a bit more money to go after a real free agent in the offseason.

Sac gains: Boozer rental, AK47 (large expiring in 2011 if I'm not mistaken), a legit 7 footer, PG prospect, but most importantly another lottery bound draft pick meaning another chance at Wall/Favors/Aldritch/Davis etc..

Then again we never know, Boozer might like it here and ruin our chances at a lottery spot but I am not sure I'll cry about
JT/Hawes/Fresenko
Boozer/Greene
AK47/Casspi
Cisco/Udoka
Evans/Beno/SRod/Maynor

No way they trade us Boozer and thier number one draft pick

 

[Nighthawk1]

It's a longshot sure - but if they don't believe Boozer will stay they will gain cap relief now, and a great scorer (we take on some burden but I like the upside) I think it's something they consider

 

[Das_Boot]

Martin for another combo guard?

I know this thread is about Martin for a defensive big... but after seeing reke's numbers after playing with Beno on the floor, should we maybe be looking for a good combo guard we can run with Tyreke? He's been playing great basketball since Martin went down. Beno is playing well lately but it is Beno and we know how that can go. At what point do we say this isn't just coincidence that Tyreke's stats have drastically improved since Martin got hurt (again)?

 

[Telemachus]

I know this thread is about Martin for a defensive big... but after seeing reke's numbers after playing with Beno on the floor, should we maybe be looking for a good combo guard we can run with Tyreke?

Maybe we could get Douby back.

 

[Das_Boot]

Between him and the second coming of Kenny Thomas we would be UNSTOPPABLE!!

 

[Prince_XY]

I am watching Reke closely now -- if he continues on this arc, then Kevin's pts, or lack thereof, are irrelevant. Then all that will matter is getting the best fit next to Reke, and forming up a defensive squad tough enoguh to matter -- because make no mistake, no defense = no joy no matter how pretty the scoring. Reke is willing. Now he needs help.

Do you guys think Kevin knows about this impending change with respect to his relevance here in Sacramento?

I hope Kevin is smart enough to know the consequence of him not playing top notch defense when he comes back to the line-up.

 

[SacTownGrantFan]

Do you guys think Kevin knows about this impending change with respect to his relevance here in Sacramento?

I hope Kevin is smart enough to know the consequence of him not playing top notch defense when he comes back to the line-up.

Totally agree. However I don't think Kevin's body allows him to play top notch defense.