LPKingsFan
All-Star
Ha! Brain fart on that one. Still wouldn’t try to out tank Presti, either
Trade Deadline Thread
- Thread starter macadocious
- Start date
TaxMan
Starter
Ha! I didn’t say I would make the trade, I just believe they have roughly the same value. My main point is that Fox is a very good, but flawed player. The same can be said of Randle (and like it or not….he was (justifiably) all nba just last year). We are not getting Ingram for fox. Not Simmons for Fox. Not Sabonis for Fox… unless we are giving more draft assets. It’s just not happening.
I have come to the conclusion that a core of Fox, Hali, and Mitchell is less than the sum of the parts. I don’t think there is a quick fix for this team and so we are at least two seasons away. Therefore, I’m all in on your tank, but I would trade fox now (or in the off-season) for draft capital.
This Randle speculation worries me. Imo hes one of the most overrated players in the league. He had one good season and now hes back to where he has always been. Hes a big and not a good floor spacer. He likes to operate near the basket but also needs a rim protector playing besides him. Unless you literally have Myles Turner constantly next to him, hes not a player that as a near max guy makes you a competitive team. That also is a problem because in order to be contender you would need to have an awesome offensive creator maxed (someone much better than Hali), Randle maxed and Turner nearly maxed. Cap is limited and awesome offensive creators extremely rare. I wouldnt bring him in unless I had the perfect situation ready for him to absolutely maximize his strengths and hide his shortcomings. I like Sabonis a slightly better but I probably wouldnt target him either for the same reasons. With Sabonis you would have to be a top 5 offense in order to be competitive as your defense is probably average at best with him as center.
Fox also has huge flaws. He isnt good enough to build a heliocentric offense around him so he would have to bring value other ways. Unfortunately he is a huge negative on defense and a very bad shooter and off ball player on offense. He doesnt bring value unless he has the ball on his hands and he isnt at the level of Harden where he would still be a big positive. Comparison to Booker is bad because Booker is an awesome off the ball player. He brings tons of value other ways than dominating the ball and scoring, thus its much easier to build a contender with him as one of the max salary players. Booker is a big positive offensively even when he doesnt have the ball. Fox is a big negative when hes off the ball.
I dont feel like digging up old posts but I've said it years ago that the level of career Fox is going to have will depend a lot of his ability to shoot. Its extremely hard to be able to be a heliocentric offense aka Harden, Luka, Trae, Lebron, maybe prime Westbrook. Therefore the value has to also come from somewhere else. Spacing, on ball defense, help defense, cutting, creating, making the smart pass immediately ect. I like Fox more than Randle but Fox isnt in the same conversation as Booker or Mitchell whatever the circumatances are between those players.
Fox also has huge flaws. He isnt good enough to build a heliocentric offense around him so he would have to bring value other ways. Unfortunately he is a huge negative on defense and a very bad shooter and off ball player on offense. He doesnt bring value unless he has the ball on his hands and he isnt at the level of Harden where he would still be a big positive. Comparison to Booker is bad because Booker is an awesome off the ball player. He brings tons of value other ways than dominating the ball and scoring, thus its much easier to build a contender with him as one of the max salary players. Booker is a big positive offensively even when he doesnt have the ball. Fox is a big negative when hes off the ball.
I dont feel like digging up old posts but I've said it years ago that the level of career Fox is going to have will depend a lot of his ability to shoot. Its extremely hard to be able to be a heliocentric offense aka Harden, Luka, Trae, Lebron, maybe prime Westbrook. Therefore the value has to also come from somewhere else. Spacing, on ball defense, help defense, cutting, creating, making the smart pass immediately ect. I like Fox more than Randle but Fox isnt in the same conversation as Booker or Mitchell whatever the circumatances are between those players.
The reasons a straight swap are bad for the kings are multiple.
1. They may have near similar rankings, but Fox does play more into a team game than randle who rlhas a fairly iso heavy game. For the knicks to succeed last year they ran through randle. The Kings would not do that, putting the ball on Halis hands would limit Randles effectiveness.
2. Yes randle has been an all star... So what? He is plays a less position where there are far fewer good players. And while he is a legit good player, he is 3 years older than fox and you are giving the k icks a faster younger player and their position of greatest need. So swapping straight up is bad business. It does nothing for your future while everything for theirs.
3. Do you think that a ln exchange of stars without future building moves this team from the gutter? If not why make the change? To give space for hali? Has anyone watched the crap show of offense s9nce fox has been out? It was bad with fox, without him they dropped 2 positions to bottom 3 in the league.
4. It does nothing to move your negative pieces (bagley buddy).
1. They may have near similar rankings, but Fox does play more into a team game than randle who rlhas a fairly iso heavy game. For the knicks to succeed last year they ran through randle. The Kings would not do that, putting the ball on Halis hands would limit Randles effectiveness.
2. Yes randle has been an all star... So what? He is plays a less position where there are far fewer good players. And while he is a legit good player, he is 3 years older than fox and you are giving the k icks a faster younger player and their position of greatest need. So swapping straight up is bad business. It does nothing for your future while everything for theirs.
3. Do you think that a ln exchange of stars without future building moves this team from the gutter? If not why make the change? To give space for hali? Has anyone watched the crap show of offense s9nce fox has been out? It was bad with fox, without him they dropped 2 positions to bottom 3 in the league.
4. It does nothing to move your negative pieces (bagley buddy).
kingsfan101
Starter
Don't know if we are shopping Fox, but it's certainly possible. Assuming we are, we need to remember a few things
- His large salary means that you can't just exchange him for a young player and picks. You have to take back salary.
- If you want to press reset, you try to find a deal to take on some expiring salaries + assets, or some bad contract with a lot more assets.
- Easier said than done though, and needless to say, depends on the market.
- It's not necessarily a Vivek/Monte thing. Just the nature of the beast, though the direction they set will certainly influence the kind of deals they look for.
- Whatever be the the situation, no GM will like to do a fire sale to get pennies on the dollar. Even in tank mode, you try to get the maximum possible assets, and don't sell just for the sake of selling.
- Particularly, when the player you are trading is a young, talented player playing reasonably well, and signed long term. You don't trade away such players for a rebuild. You acquire them. We may feel that his play is not worth his contract, but that can happen with many players.
- As for the PG position being more valuable, it can be argued if the wing position is more valuable. Either way, in our case we have an overcrowded backcourt, and if we can move one of the three guys to balance out the roster, it might be a win.
- While I like Fox, I think as of now, he is more likely to get traded than Hali/Davion.
- I will say though that I am not yet completely sold on the Hali/Davion backcourt. Initial signs are encouraging, but we did lose most of these games (while we expected to lose most anyway, we got obliterated in a few). More importantly though, they have to do it over a longer period to generate confidence.
ockingsfan
Starter
Here is the thing, IF the Kings wanted to tank and maximize their draft position, they do NOT need to sell low on Fox. Look at what the Kings did with Demarcus and so many other teams do when they try to tank. They sit their veterans with vague injuries (i.e. knee or ankle soreness) for the majority of games, while the L's pile up. No need to trade a good young player for pennies on the dollar, when you can simply sit the player with an "injury" and you retain the asset.
jcassio
Starter
SGA and Dort are out, so we'll be playing their G-league team. But, since we tend to play to the level of the competition, it's still a crapshoot.
Would be great for us to lose this game so obviously we'll play 8 man rotation with Barnes and others going for 40minutes to scrap up that W
100% chance Buddy is going 8/11 from 3 tonight
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And especially the one who doesn't play a bruising skilled PF. No value there right now.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Also really interesting, Monte might have actually got ahead of another GM this time! Too late Pacers, deal with the butt hurt from your star! Monte scooped your ###, already came in with the "We're not trading De'Aaaron". Too late! Neener neener neener!
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Why even bother with this anymore? We all know after so many years the Kings will either be right outside the window of where they need to be in the draft, last year it was literally 1 pick, or they will take a dropper regardless of fit and maybe they'll get lucky, move up, and still blow the pick and subsequent development of that pick anyway. haha.
Jones2006
Bench
No offense but the Wizards literally have a logjam at center right now with 3 rotation guys - they’re looking to trade Harrell or Bryant, not take on another one.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
The thing is I dont think they are. They’re in desperate animal mode right now where their locker room is a mess (KCP and Trez got in a fight and Dinwiddie and Beal are unhappy) and now they’re scared they’ll lose Beal is leaving in the offseason but also don’t want to trade him. What they’re going for now is going to be vets and “names”. maybe it won’t be Holmes per se but the Kings have the precise type of vet fluff that they could be looking to acquire to appease Brad.
Were I the Wizards, I’d be looking to move my vets and maybe make that Simmons for Beal deal but for whatever reason they appear to be veering to the Vivek zone (First round exit or bust!)
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
If the Kings went rebuild I'd not be angry at Holmes straight across for Montrez. See if Montrez and Haliburton look as good as they might together in pick and roll, if not, you just got out of that 35 million still owed on that Holmes deal.
y’all swear fox is this good lol
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Yeah. Trez is an expiring too. So even if that move ends up as a protected first or something and Holmes’s contract off the books, I wouldn’t be too broken up about it.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
One thing is for sure, some of the same things being said about Fox were said about both these guys at one point. The Suns still have their guy. Minnesota decided D'Angelo Russell was the better option. And... Suns not bailing on their guy wins.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And Montrez isn't a corpse. Haliburton might average 20 apg with him next to him. Yes, the defense will be far less than with Holmes but at this point who cares. Bottom line if it works then you have something to help build on.
sactowndog
All-Star
no I’m thinking about Harden for Simmons is a done deal
SLAB
Hall of Famer
That’s a steal for the Nets. The Kyrie situation is still bizarre, but you an elite defending distributor when you already have two of the most potent offensive weapons in the game? Sign me up.
Fox plays PG, yes. But it's not like he's a top 5 PG in the league. He's not even a particularly good facilitator so realistically you should be treating him as a 6'3 scoring SG. This premium PGs you speak of are guys who run offenses well or energise the team's offense. I mean, I don't know how you'd actually watch the games and think otherwise. Fox is barely even the PG on our team when playing with Hali. I don't think anybody genuinely watches Fox and comes away thinking "man he's such a high IQ playmaking facilitator who gets his guys so many open looks". Fox himself thinks of himself as more of a scorer!
EIM86
Starter
I’ve literally proposed the Jazz as to how we should build around Fox. They won 48 games with friggin George Hill and all those vets before Donovan came aboard.
Cough Gordon Hayward cough
Hoovtrain
All-Star
it’s truly bizarre and extremely frustrating
