Time to Start Buddy?

Should Buddy be inserted into the starting lineup and who would he replace?

  • Start in place of Harrison Barnes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    23
#32
I'd really like to know when a players numbers are real when they are empty? Seriously though. Who gets to decide?

Buddy's shooting numbers are at the top of the all time list as far as 3pt shooting goes. There is no asterix next to his shooting besides what some Kings fans say.
 
#33
Fox, buddy, barnes, holmes, len.

Yes there is less shooting, but rebounding has been a bigger problem. Holmes just can't muscle the bigger centers on the boards.
They're already jamming the lane on Fox this season. Put Len and Holmes in the same lineup and it makes it easier for them to do that. At least with Bagley or Metu, they help spread the floor a little. When an NBA team has success against a certain player the rest of the league looks at what they were doing, and emulates it.

Right now, they're giving Fox the 3 point shot, but taking away the basket. The only way Fox can stop that is to start hitting that 3 pt shot. Putting two low post players on the floor with him makes it worse.
 
#35
In place of Harkless. They need to maximize their shooting at all costs and Haliburton is a great spot shooter. Less pnr from him and more of that sweet shot we saw last year.
I don't think you have to have less P&R for him to take more shots. There were plenty of shots to be had in the last game but he passed them up. But your right, we need more offense out of him and he's quite capable of doing that.
 
#37
I'd really like to know when a players numbers are real when they are empty? Seriously though. Who gets to decide?

Buddy's shooting numbers are at the top of the all time list as far as 3pt shooting goes. There is no asterix next to his shooting besides what some Kings fans say.
If you come into the game and hit two quick three's, but at the other end of the floor turn the ball over a couple of times, are you a plus or a minus? If you go 0 for 7 in the first half while the other team is putting a19 to 20 point lead on you, but come in the 2nd half and hit 4 or 5 in a row which don't really matter anymore because your down by 25 and not getting any stops, are you a plus or a minus?

Buddy is a very bad defender, which we tend to stomach because of his ability to score. The question is, and there's not any real way to get solid numbers that I know of, but how many points does he allow because of his poor defense and untimely turnovers, and does that exceed how many points he scores?
 
#38
So your definition is the handful of greatest shooters of all time. I think he's among the best shooters currently in the NBA
My personal definition of a great shooter is not only a player who hits a lot three's, like Buddy, or Curry etc., but a player that also hits the shot when the game is on the line and you really need it. Kevin Durant isn't the three pt shooter that Buddy is, but how many times have you seen him hit that shot to stop a run, or to win a game. He's one of the most clutch players in the NBA. Buddy isn't. Matter of fact, I'm not sure we have that player on our team. Although Barnes probably comes the closest. I wouldn't bet my life on him though!
 
#39
My personal definition of a great shooter is not only a player who hits a lot three's, like Buddy, or Curry etc., but a player that also hits the shot when the game is on the line and you really need it. Kevin Durant isn't the three pt shooter that Buddy is, but how many times have you seen him hit that shot to stop a run, or to win a game. He's one of the most clutch players in the NBA. Buddy isn't. Matter of fact, I'm not sure we have that player on our team. Although Barnes probably comes the closest. I wouldn't bet my life on him though!
I also think Durant is one of the elite shooters in the game, whether it's late in a game, or anytime. From any distance. I don't see any reason that he wouldn't be considered as good a deep shooter as Hield.

Would be interesting to see what Hield could do on a good NBA team, under one of the better coaches
 
#40
No.

When I think of elite shooters, I think of Reggie Miller or Larry bird. Peja might have been on the outer edges of elite. Buddy? Not even close. He’s streaky as all hell. If he gets on a roll he can do some damage. But if he’s not on, he can single handedly shoot you out of a game. Not to mention he can’t handle the ball worth an S. To me? That’s not elite.

Do you think buddy had a good game yesterday?
What does ball handling have to do with being an elite shooter?
 
#41
If you come into the game and hit two quick three's, but at the other end of the floor turn the ball over a couple of times, are you a plus or a minus? If you go 0 for 7 in the first half while the other team is putting a19 to 20 point lead on you, but come in the 2nd half and hit 4 or 5 in a row which don't really matter anymore because your down by 25 and not getting any stops, are you a plus or a minus?

Buddy is a very bad defender, which we tend to stomach because of his ability to score. The question is, and there's not any real way to get solid numbers that I know of, but how many points does he allow because of his poor defense and untimely turnovers, and does that exceed how many points he scores?
Defense argument is old. Watch the games. By your logic, all Kings players on the team for the last 15 years' stats are empty.

FWIW, Buddy's defrtg this season is 108.4 (slightly worse than Holmes, better than Barnes and Fox by quite a lot - Fox is at 115). Davion is at 103.7. Buddy's offrtg is 107.2, giving him a netrtg of -1.2 which is effectively best on the team after Moe Harkless (not counting Metu/other guys who barely play).
 
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#42
Defense argument is old. Watch the games. By your logic, all Kings players on the team for the last 15 years' stats are empty.

FWIW, Buddy's defrtg this season is 108.4 (slightly worse than Holmes, better than Barnes and Fox by quite a lot - Fox is at 115). Davion is at 103.7. Buddy's offrtg is 107.2, giving him a netrtg of -1.2 which is effectively best on the team after Moe Harkless (not counting Metu/other guys who barely play).
Keep in mind that Buddy is also largely playing against backups this year. Defensive rating has it's merits but it's far from an ideal stat for a number of reasons.

That said, while Buddy still isn't a good defender, to me he's played better on that end when matched up with bigger/stronger wings vs quicker/smaller wings & guards. He has the bulk and strength to not get bullied. He just is laterally quick or alert/instinctive enough to not give up easy points to active opponents.

At this point Harkless and Metu aren't the answer so I'm in favor of trying Bagley to improve the rebounding or Buddy to go all in on playing fast and scoring a ton of points. Why not?
 
#43
Keep in mind that Buddy is also largely playing against backups this year. Defensive rating has it's merits but it's far from an ideal stat for a number of reasons.

That said, while Buddy still isn't a good defender, to me he's played better on that end when matched up with bigger/stronger wings vs quicker/smaller wings & guards. He has the bulk and strength to not get bullied. He just is laterally quick or alert/instinctive enough to not give up easy points to active opponents.

At this point Harkless and Metu aren't the answer so I'm in favor of trying Bagley to improve the rebounding or Buddy to go all in on playing fast and scoring a ton of points. Why not?
Oh I don't disagree with you, though I'm sure you can appreciate the nuance that Buddy isn't just playing against backups. But it clearly refutes the idea that Buddy is the one responsible for messing up on defense, being a net negative and allowing the opponents to build big leads any more so than our starters. I can't think of a logical possible permutation for this not to be the case unless you really assume that his averages are skewed so greatly by extremes, and even then you'd imagine the effect would carry over to the other players as well, so relative comparisons would still hold.

Edit: I also ran the splits by halves, and the relative ranking of the team's players more or less holds. The absolute numbers are far worse for everyone in the 2nd half compared to the 1st half, which should be no surprise for anyone who's been watching our 3rd and 4th quarters. Point being - it's not as if Buddy is giving up a whole lot in his first stint, digging us into a big hole, and then making up for it in his second stint when the game is already over such that his averages look better than everyone else.

People see what they want to see I guess.
 
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#44
Right now, I would make Hali the main ball handler and use Fox like how Gentry use Barbosa in PHX days

Nash - Hali
Barbosa - Fox
Amare - Holmes/Bagley
Marion - Barnes/Harkless
JJ - Buddy (just the shooting :))

If Gentry goes full PHX days, this could be his line-up for 30 mins.
 
#45
Oh I don't disagree with you, though I'm sure you can appreciate the nuance that Buddy isn't just playing against backups. But it clearly refutes the idea that Buddy is the one responsible for messing up on defense, being a net negative and allowing the opponents to build big leads any more so than our starters. I can't think of a logical possible permutation for this not to be the case unless you really assume that his averages are skewed so greatly by extremes, and even then you'd imagine the effect would carry over to the other players as well, so relative comparisons would still hold.

Edit: I also ran the splits by halves, and the relative ranking of the team's players more or less holds. The absolute numbers are far worse for everyone in the 2nd half compared to the 1st half, which should be no surprise for anyone who's been watching our 3rd and 4th quarters. Point being - it's not as if Buddy is giving up a whole lot in his first stint, digging us into a big hole, and then making up for it in his second stint when the game is already over such that his averages look better than everyone else.

People see what they want to see I guess.
My only point regarding defensive rating is that it is skewed by who you play most of your minutes with and against. It's useful, but it isn't the end all of defensive metrics. But yes, Buddy does play enough minutes that of course he isn't only facing second stringers and he's clearly not single handedly dragging down the Kings defense. That's a team effort unfortunately.

Fox is probably as bad or worse than Hield, especially given that he's often tasked with guarding the other team's primary ball handler. But I think part of why De'Aaron gets somewhat of a pass and Buddy doesn't is that Fox has made it clear that he wants to be in Sacramento and Buddy has made it clear that he wants out. Consciously or subconsciously that is sure to color some people's views of them as players. That may not be fair (especially since it seems like Buddy's been on the block for a long time - how loyal can anyone expect him to be to a losing team that has dangled him in lots of trades) but I do think that plays a part.
 
#46
if you want to run and chuck a whole lot, Buddy would be the one to start the game with. Either way, I hope Monte gets busy with the phones and gets rid of a lot of dead weight. At this rate Houston, OKC, Detroit and Orlando will be done rebuilding and make Playoff appearances before the Kings do.
 
#47
if you want to run and chuck a whole lot, Buddy would be the one to start the game with. Either way, I hope Monte gets busy with the phones and gets rid of a lot of dead weight. At this rate Houston, OKC, Detroit and Orlando will be done rebuilding and make Playoff appearances before the Kings do.
Rebuilding teams rebuild faster than bad teams trying to cobble together a 10-seed? Crazy!
 
#49
My only point regarding defensive rating is that it is skewed by who you play most of your minutes with and against. It's useful, but it isn't the end all of defensive metrics. But yes, Buddy does play enough minutes that of course he isn't only facing second stringers and he's clearly not single handedly dragging down the Kings defense. That's a team effort unfortunately.

Fox is probably as bad or worse than Hield, especially given that he's often tasked with guarding the other team's primary ball handler. But I think part of why De'Aaron gets somewhat of a pass and Buddy doesn't is that Fox has made it clear that he wants to be in Sacramento and Buddy has made it clear that he wants out. Consciously or subconsciously that is sure to color some people's views of them as players. That may not be fair (especially since it seems like Buddy's been on the block for a long time - how loyal can anyone expect him to be to a losing team that has dangled him in lots of trades) but I do think that plays a part.
Yes you're right that we can't look at the stat in isolation or as an absolute value of a player's prowess. Net rtg does however, once adjusted for pace/possessions, absolutely refute an argument that a player is the one responsible for giving up big leads or only scoring when the team is already down and the points are meaningless. Put another way, if Buddy has a netrtg of -1 albeit against benchers, while Fox has a netrtg of -10 against starters, your point is we cannot necessarily say that Buddy is a better player than Fox, which is true. But we can say with almost 100% certainty, that if the team loses by 20 points, most of the falling behind happened with Fox on the floor rather than Buddy.