Time For A Lineup Tweak?

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Ideally Marcus Thornton comes off the bench. The question is, how realistic is it that he accepts this role? And who replaces him?

My ideal lineup for this year would be Jimmer/Reke/Greene. Two unselfish off-the-ball players next to a ball-dominant Reke. Two good defenders their position and one liability. Two scorers and one guy you don't run plays for. In sum, ball movement + defense + shooting + a not confused Reke.

Bring the selfish dribblers off the bench in IT/Thornton/Salmons.

 

[Gary]

You'll notice I did not include an option for stupidity.

You have three choices for Reke at PG and 5 times you leave MT out of the lineup.. Yah that's not stupid or anything. Bench our best guard and/or put Reke back at PG lol..

So that's 8 options for stupidity.. So yes, you did.. EIGHT times.

 

[Gary]

I do honestly think tyreke will be traded in a reshuffle that makes GP relevant again.

One can only hope... There are a couple of people here that reak of too much Reke love. He's a good ball player, but putting him back at PG? LOL.. Very very stupid.

 

[IfAt1st]

You could go back to Tyreke, Salmons and MT. After all, Salmons is shooting better, and that was the problem, right? That Salmons just couldn't shoot straight. That all we needed was a 3 who could shoot. So if you buy into that line of reasoning, put Salmons back in there, have Tyreke be the primary ballhandler, and MT the 2-guard and just see how far that takes you. But before you do, take the no-doze and the caffeine because it's going to be a constant beat of dribble, dribble, dribble.... Maybe the Power Balance crowd can come up with a dribble, dribble, dribble chant to encourage the press of the leather.

Yeah, this is my concern as well.

Lots of people have already forgotten the utter offensive ineptitude that occurred when Tyreke, MT, and Salmons were the ballhandlers.
Remember being 15 points down in almost every 1st quarter?
Remember the turnovers that led to fastbreak baskets time and time and time again?

I don't EVER want to see that again, and it wasn't because of Salmons.

Wait a minute - I seem to remember a more recent game that had Tyreke as PG.
Wasn't that against Denver in the OT?
Didn't they run the same exact play (inexplicably, a Tyreke/JT pick-n-roll) on 5 or 6 consecutive possessions, that led to less and less success and cost them the OT?

Tyreke is not a PG. Just because he can drive against a single defender doesn't mean he has the skills necessary to run an NBA offense.
He simply doesn't get where his fellow players are going to be on the floor and has terrible court vision.
Anyone notice that fastbreak against Atlanta (to end the 1st half?) - Tyreke dribbled all the way into the defense, seeing Donte running right along with him. Tyreke bulled towards the basket with Donte following him in, then spun and passed it way hard, as if he thought Donte was going to be at the 3pt line. Donte mishandled the point-blank bullet pass and they came up empty.
Case in point.

I'll take it a bit further and say that a backcourt of Reke and Thornton is pushing it. With all this talk about our guards, let us not forget the Cousins is our best player right now, and probably our most versatile offensive player. Before anyone else, he's our primary option.

This is what frustrates me about the coaching and players - they seldom get the ball to DMC in the block. I watch Demarcus possession after possession, just hanging out at 18 - 23 ft out, setting weak screens and then the guard jacks up a shot and he's out of position to even attempt a rebound.
Even on games where the guards are being horrid at execution and DMC is scoring at will, they'll ice Demarcus for 5 minutes at a time, continuing to futilely throw their crap plays at the defense.

The few times when they actually run the play designed for Demarcus (him set down low within 12 feet he scores regularly with his spin baseline move or power move into the key, or when the double comes he passes it to a set guard (usually IT or Jimmer) at the 3 pt line, or a designed well-run IT pick-n-roll with he and Cousins, etc) they've been money.

Why they don't run those successful plays more often baffles me.

Do the coaches not want to score often? Do the players just ice him out for some reason? Do they not realize how important it is for DMC to put up gaudy statlines as often as possible so the national media takes note, he gets cred, and will get more calls to go his way, leading to more gaudy statlines, All-Stars appearances, etc? (It's a domino situation, and it'll happen soon if they just FEED THE BEAST)
I don't believe the players and coaches purposely ice Demarcus out, so I'm at a loss to explain it.

 

[rainmaker]

One can only hope... There are a couple of people here that reak of too much Reke love. He's a good ball player, but putting him back at PG? LOL.. Very very stupid.

Funny. I went through your recent post history to see if you talk about anything other than Reke. Aside from the arena talk, which I mostly have agreed with you on, 18 of your last 20 posts are regarding Reke.

I could say, with that evidence, you're the poster boy for Reke hate. You might actually love to hate him. In all those posts, there hasn't been a single fact presented to back up any of your statements. People have provided stats to supports their position in response to you, but you just ignore it.

 

[Gary]

Funny. I went through your recent post history to see if you talk about anything other than Reke. Aside from the arena talk, which I mostly have agreed with you on, 18 of your last 20 posts are regarding Reke.

I could say, with that evidence, you're the poster boy for Reke hate. You might actually love to hate him. In all those posts, there hasn't been a single fact presented to back up any of your statements. People have provided stats to supports their position in response to you, but you just ignore it.

Stats? Like the stats that the team averaged more TOs than assists with Reke at PG for the first 15 or so games? Or that as a starting PG with over 35mins (or close to that) he had the worst a/to ratio, least amount of assists, and led our team to a nice cruddy record while being last (as a team) in assists over those games?

What stats actually back up Evans as being a good PG? I think Brick in a post or two posted something like "in his last 3 games he averaged 7 assists" or something like that I remember reading, but the sample size was too small. There was not one team stat or personal stat that Evans was a top tier PG in this league. Not one.

He did well when Smart took over, I will give him that, but what did I say? "wait for the honeymoon period to be over and that's what you will most likely get from Evans", and sure enough he got moved to SF for a rookie PG (who I personally believe isn't the answer either). My whole argument against Evans is that he's not a PG. That's it. The reason I have so many recent posts regarding Evans recently is because a lot of people here want to put him back at PG as if he will be some kind of savior or things will be different this time. I am going to grab some stats and BRB.

ehh I can't remember the stat site for breaking down the team stats for a chunk of games.. The first 13 games though Evans averaged 3.6apg and 2.7to/g.. That's when the team was averaging more TOs than assists I believe. Since then he has done a lot better, but still isn't who I want running the Kings offense. I would like to see him tried out at SG but I don't want to bench MT..

 

[Padrino]

Stats? Like the stats that the team averaged more TOs than assists with Reke at PG for the first 15 or so games? Or that as a starting PG with over 35mins (or close to that) he had the worst a/to ratio, least amount of assists, and led our team to a nice cruddy record while being last (as a team) in assists over those games?

What stats actually back up Evans as being a good PG? I think Brick in a post or two posted something like "in his last 3 games he averaged 7 assists" or something like that I remember reading, but the sample size was too small. There was not one team stat or personal stat that Evans was a top tier PG in this league. Not one.

He did well when Smart took over, I will give him that, but what did I say? "wait for the honeymoon period to be over and that's what you will most likely get from Evans", and sure enough he got moved to SF for a rookie PG (who I personally believe isn't the answer either). My whole argument against Evans is that he's not a PG. That's it. The reason I have so many recent posts regarding Evans recently is because a lot of people here want to put him back at PG as if he will be some kind of savior or things will be different this time. I am going to grab some stats and BRB.

you mean those games at the beginning of the season in which former head coach paul westphal instituted a hopelessly dreadful read and react offense in which NO player on the kings could determine their role, after an offseason so brief that there was no time to adapt? it damn near looked to me like westphal sabotaged his way to a firing that he wanted, and set the kings, and tyreke evans, back a fair amount...

for the record, 15 games is also too small a sample size to make any legitimate determination about evans' ability to succeed at PG. you argue against yourself with these claims, because they occur in a vacuum, without context, and without worthwhile consideration of the kings' unfortunate cluster**** of a roster, as a whole...

 

[VF21]

One can only hope... There are a couple of people here that reak of too much Reke love. He's a good ball player, but putting him back at PG? LOL.. Very very stupid.

Oh come on, Gary. You still haven't gotten over us not getting Rubio. You may talk all you like of "too much Reke love" but it's just a bit of a twist on the old pot calling the kettle black scenario. You've had it against Evans since day 1 so you're not really in any position to point fingers, are you?

 

[Heuge]

You have three choices for Reke at PG and 5 times you leave MT out of the lineup.. Yah that's not stupid or anything. Bench our best guard and/or put Reke back at PG lol..

So that's 8 options for stupidity.. So yes, you did.. EIGHT times.

This is dripping with irony, and also stupid.

 

[jcwkings]

you don't move tyreke back to pg, that experiment has sailed, he doesn't have the bball iq or court vision to play that position. let him be the swingman that plays good d and goes on the break. My vote is Isiah, tyreke, Garcia or Donte

second unit
salmons
jimmer
thornton
Hayes
Green/Garcia

 

[rainmaker]

Stats? Like the stats that the team averaged more TOs than assists with Reke at PG for the first 15 or so games? Or that as a starting PG with over 35mins (or close to that) he had the worst a/to ratio, least amount of assists, and led our team to a nice cruddy record while being last (as a team) in assists over those games?

What stats actually back up Evans as being a good PG? I think Brick in a post or two posted something like "in his last 3 games he averaged 7 assists" or something like that I remember reading, but the sample size was too small. There was not one team stat or personal stat that Evans was a top tier PG in this league. Not one.

He did well when Smart took over, I will give him that, but what did I say? "wait for the honeymoon period to be over and that's what you will most likely get from Evans", and sure enough he got moved to SF for a rookie PG (who I personally believe isn't the answer either). My whole argument against Evans is that he's not a PG. That's it. The reason I have so many recent posts regarding Evans recently is because a lot of people here want to put him back at PG as if he will be some kind of savior or things will be different this time. I am going to grab some stats and BRB.

ehh I can't remember the stat site for breaking down the team stats for a chunk of games.. The first 13 games though Evans averaged 3.6apg and 2.7to/g.. That's when the team was averaging more TOs than assists I believe. Since then he has done a lot better, but still isn't who I want running the Kings offense. I would like to see him tried out at SG but I don't want to bench MT..

As Padrino said, why are you bringing the 7 games under Westy into this? Then, you don't give him anytime time whatsoever to learn Smart's system? Your judgement is based off 7 games under the worst head coach in the league, and the first 8 under a new coach with a new system? Is that supposed to be objective?

What stats show he's a good pg? Did you miss me posting this thread? http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?43863-Tyreke-s-Assist-Rate-Shooting-Up
Doubt you missed it, but even if you did, his ast rate shooting up as a PG under Smart was clear. So you either ignored the thread and stats, or didn't know what you were watching. It's one or the other. His ast rate under Smart put him in the company of Rose, Parker, Westbrook and Wall, truly poor company, and it was only increasing until the move to SF.

You act like this "honeymoon period"(not sure how you came up with that) ended because he was failing as a PG, yet stats show he was excelling as a PG, and most likely due to our anemic SF core, and IT's improved play, he moved Reke to SF because he's that versatile.

Do you think IT is better? Have stats for that? I have stats showing Reke with a higher ast rate than IT. But that can't be right can it, because IT is the pure pg we've all been waiting for. Except, it is true, that Reke has a higher ast rate than IT under Smart. He also doesn't get beaten like a drum on defense by other pg's.

Actually, the only honeymoon period which seems to be over is IT as a starting pg, as his all around play has plummeted, his ast rate is dropping, he's shooting % is dropping, and he's getting abused by average pg's, while looking more for his own shot. The difference would be, IT is playing him self out of that role as all his stats fall across the table, while Reke didn't play himself out of the PG role as his stats were improving, and he was moved to cover for our well below average core of SF's.

 

[swisshh]

A PG isn't measured by his own Stats. Hollinger learned this ever so slowly when he kept putting Marbury at the top of his PG list for seasons. The team's FG% is bottom of the barrel and their assists total and assist to turnover ratio is horrible. Their offensive sets and plays were some of the most pathetic in the league. He was failing as a PG. It's not within his talents. He can bring the ball up, and handle the ball, but PG is a whole other realm where Reke does not succeed. This debate should be dead by now.

 

[Padrino]

A PG isn't measured by his own Stats. Hollinger learned this ever so slowly when he kept putting Marbury at the top of his PG list for seasons. The team's FG% is bottom of the barrel and their assists total and assist to turnover ratio is horrible. Their offensive sets and plays were some of the most pathetic in the league. He was failing as a PG. It's not within his talents. He can bring the ball up, and handle the ball, but PG is a whole other realm where Reke does not succeed. This debate should be dead by now.

your arguments and individual points are some of the most poorly-conceived on the board. you're failing as a poster. its not within your talents. you can speak matter-of-factly, and sidestep evidence, but cogent argument is a whole other realm where you do not succeed. this debate should be dead by now...

 

[Gary]

you mean those games at the beginning of the season in which former head coach paul westphal instituted a hopelessly dreadful read and react offense in which NO player on the kings could determine their role, after an offseason so brief that there was no time to adapt? it damn near looked to me like westphal sabotaged his way to a firing that he wanted, and set the kings, and tyreke evans, back a fair amount...

for the record, 15 games is also too small a sample size to make any legitimate determination about evans' ability to succeed at PG. you argue against yourself with these claims, because they occur in a vacuum, without context, and without worthwhile consideration of the kings' unfortunate cluster**** of a roster, as a whole...

I'm not talking about 13 games (was just an example).. What about the two seasons before? Oh that's right.. ROY, and bad foot.. His ROY year was nice, but Beno really helped out with that in terms of bringing the ball up and calling set plays. But most of us saw Evans wasn't a real PG but we were hoping that as a ball handler that he could be in the PG spot and still run a team well enough.

Bad foot.. Year two..

Westphail year three..

When will the excuses for him end? I have never said I don't like Evans as a ball player. I have always said he was fine, and I actually wanted to try him with MT this year to see how it would go (bad idea on my part). I am just saying he's not a PG, and I don't want him playing there. He hasn't ever been a PG, but he's always had some help distributing whether it be Anderson, or Beno. He didn't have Beno this year, and he was three years removed from Anderson.

I feel two and a half years is enough to give him a chance to play PG. I would like to see him at SG but I don't want to bench MT so it's a lose/lose right now for me.

 

[Glenn]

Yawn.

 

[Gary]

Oh come on, Gary. You still haven't gotten over us not getting Rubio. You may talk all you like of "too much Reke love" but it's just a bit of a twist on the old pot calling the kettle black scenario. You've had it against Evans since day 1 so you're not really in any position to point fingers, are you?

I had always thought Rubio would have been better for the Kings than Evans. I am over it though (although I remain a fan of his and have watched most the T-Wolf games this year). Dang injury though so I have to wait for next season. I am a pretty rational guy unless I know I am right and others just don't understand.. Yes, I have been hating on Evans since he came to Sac. It's not Evans fault though. I wanted a PG and I got a SG trying to play point.

I pay a lot of money to watch the Kings live at PBP and what I saw at the start of the year (Thank god most of them were road games and I didn't see it in person) was just irritating beyond belief.

My problem with this whole thread was Brick's comment about someone being an idiot for not having a "bench Evans" option, but in all fairness I felt it was pretty dumb to have 5 "bench Thornton" selections, and 3 "Evans at PG" selection. It was very rude for him to say that when the rest of us get infractions for saying something that is half as bad.

 

[Gary]

This is dripping with irony, and also stupid.

I call it like I see it. Brick didn't want to include a stupid selection but he benched MT 5 times and started Reke at PG 3 times.

I would love to hear what you would do with the lineup so I could criticize you.

What would I do with the lineup? Keep it the same.. Why not give IT the rest of the season? We gave Reke 2.5 years. I don't think he's a solution at PG (IT) but I don't think we have anyone that can run an offense better than he can, and I don't want to bench either Evans or MT. I would probably put Hayes, or Thompson at PF in different games depending on the matchup.

 

[swisshh]

your arguments and individual points are some of the most poorly-conceived on the board. you're failing as a poster. its not within your talents. you can speak matter-of-factly, and sidestep evidence, but cogent argument is a whole other realm where you do not succeed. this debate should be dead by now...

No, my points and analysis are pretty spot-on. I also end up being right a lot and when I'm off (my doubt of Cousins), I admit it.

Oh wait, you were being an ***. My bad! Sorry about replying.

 

[Gary]

No, my points and analysis are pretty spot-on. I also end up being right a lot and when I'm off (my doubt of Cousins), I admit it.

Oh wait, you were being an ***. My bad! Sorry about replying.

Any argument that says Evans isn't a PG will be met with swift punishment! I've had to deal with it almost three years now I am waiting it out for the time when I could say that I was right all along and bask in my glory, but some of the people here are hard headed and would never admit they were wrong.

If there is one thing I take pride in it's my ability to scout players.

 

[Padrino]

No, my points and analysis are pretty spot-on. I also end up being right a lot and when I'm off (my doubt of Cousins), I admit it.

Oh wait, you were being an ***. My bad! Sorry about replying.

nope. 'twas more like a social experiment. i wanted to mimic the ease with which you conceive of these vague, unconvincing points in order to come to the illusion of a self-evident conclusion...

you very conveniently ignore the 8 assists per game that tyreke evans averaged when keith smart played him at PG, evidence that evans moves the ball as a PG is wont to do, and evidence that his play as a PG was leading to baskets, in spite of the kings poor shooting percentage as a team. but you provide no useful counterpoint to that evidence...

you instead simply state that evans has failed as a PG, as if that's some kinda measurable fact, when the actual measures of fact reveal otherwise. so i offered that your arguments were neither salient nor accurate, as if that was, likewise, a measurable fact...

for the record, i'd prefer that evans plays SG while sharing ball-handling and passing duties with another guard who doesn't need to shoot too much. at the moment, the kings don't have such a guard, so i'd prefer that he starts at PG alongside marcus thornton...

'reke's a versatile scoring guard who can play either backcourt position, and swing up to SF in a pinch. he's not a "natural PG"--as if that mythical creature is actually of much relevance in the modern nba--but he is plenty capable of effectively assuming PG duties when its necessary for him to do so...

 

[Heuge]

I call it like I see it. Brick didn't want to include a stupid selection but he benched MT 5 times and started Reke at PG 3 times.

I would love to hear what you would do with the lineup so I could criticize you.

What would I do with the lineup? Keep it the same.. Why not give IT the rest of the season? We gave Reke 2.5 years. I don't think he's a solution at PG (IT) but I don't think we have anyone that can run an offense better than he can, and I don't want to bench either Evans or MT. I would probably put Hayes, or Thompson at PF in different games depending on the matchup.

Here is something for you to criticize. I think IT is too small to be a starting guard in the NBA. Teams have adjusted and IT is struggling. I would send IT to the bench and put the size back in the starting lineup (Reke, Thorton, Salmons or Daunte). That said, this team is so poorly constructed because our GM has been in suck mode for the last 7 years. I really don't even like the option I gave.

 

[swisshh]

Here is something for you to criticize. I think IT is too small to be a starting guard in the NBA. Teams have adjusted and IT is struggling. I would send IT to the bench and put the size back in the starting lineup (Reke, Thorton, Salmons or Daunte). That said, this team is so poorly constructed because our GM has been in suck mode for the last 7 years. I really don't even like the option I gave.

This is why I haven't been complaining a ton about Smart's small ball. I'm not a small ball fan, but it's really hard to construct a balanced, working starting five out of this roster.

 

[Gary]

This is why I haven't been complaining a ton about Smart's small ball. I'm not a small ball fan, but it's really hard to construct a balanced, working starting five out of this roster.

Exactly.. I don't think IT is a long term starting PG, but like I said above, I don't want to go back to watching players stand around for 20 seconds either like when Reke was PG.

And Heuge,
The Kings were statistically the worst team in the league in the terms of total assists and a/to ratio when Evans starts at PG. The only reason the defense seems better is because they hold the ball on offense for a long time so there are less total possessions in the games, hence lower point totals. I wasn't impressed with the Kings defense at all this year no matter what lineup they used so keeping IT at PG is more of a "let it ride until the season is over" kind of thing then we can look for a real PG in the off season.