This is depressing!!!!

[Padrino]

Again, the team played great while he was injured and stunk it up when he returned.....why?

what do you want somebody to say? that webber came back too soon? perhaps. that he made an attempt to return to his previous role in the team's strategy? perhaps. that he stole peja's thunder, however brief it was? perhaps. what did anybody expect? chris webber was the leader of the sacramento kings. he wanted to come back and make a difference. not for personal glory, but to win a championship. you can't fault him for that. he's a superstar, one of the best in the league at his position, even now. the idea (and this is no secret) was to bring webber back when he was expected, work him back into the rotation, and get him as ready as he could be for the playoffs. it didn't pan out the way most of us would have liked, but he's not the devil who brought the kings down, as voison and many others would have you think.

 

[playmaker0017]

So now you want to use statistics to determine that Shareef is a better player that Webber?

Right now? Yes, I think Reef is a better player than Webber.

Face it even with Shareef in the lineup, we were playing well-below .500 ball and our defense and rebounding were as bad as ever. You're not going to win when you're starting PF get's 6 rebounds a game.

6 rebounds a game is a misnomer. He's holding his man, over a 48 minute game, to less than 1 rebound more than he is grabbing.

He's boxing his man out - and at the end of the day - that's your job. Not getting rebounds, but blocking the opponent from getting a rebound.

I think you proved my point there about how this was a bad trade. How could we have CWebb and a strong bench to not having CWebb and having a weak bench? I thought we acquired 3 guys in the trade? Fact of the matter is that we got 3 journeyman scrubs in return.

It wasn't the Chris Webber trade that depleted the bench. It was letting go of a lot of great players that brought life off the bench.

Of course, I still think that the bench is getting some valuable minutes and might be able to turn things around whne we're all healthy.

 

[Bricklayer]

Again, the team played great while he was injured and stunk it up when he returned.....why?

Please tell mr we are not goign to crack open the box entitled " the great myth of 2003-04" again. Or maybe closer to "The Great Myth of a half season of 2003-04 played entirely at home against crappy opponents while suffering no injuries of any kind." Sure to go down in history as one of the all time red herrings in the history of the sport.

I was proud of the guys for pulling it together to start that season, less proud as things went along and it realized how many people were completely bedazzled by our non-defending non-rebounding all looks and no guts squad, less still when certain members of that team more or less quit down the stretch in a snit fit.

And Webber was still part of that team, even while it was off to the good start. They still knew who they were. Still knew they had an ace in the hole (or so it was thought), that they were still the Sacramento Kings, still contenders etc. Much of that was myth, but the power of belief is a funny thing.

 

[piksi]

Please tell mr we are not goign to crack open the box entitled " the great myth of 2003-04" again. Or maybe closer to "The Great Myth of a half season of 2003-04 played entirely at home against crappy opponents while suffering no injuries of any kind." Sure to go down in history as one of the all time red herrings in the history of the sport.

I was proud of the guys for pulling it together to start that season, less proud as things went along and it realized how many people were completely bedazzled by our non-defending non-rebounding all looks and no guts squad, less still when certain members of that team more or less quit down the stretch in a snit fit.

And Webber was still part of that team, even while it was off to the good start. They still knew who they were. Still knew they had an ace in the hole (or so it was thought), that they were still the Sacramento Kings, still contenders etc. Much of that was myth, but the power of belief is a funny thing.

back the we had myths now we don't and also don't have fairy tales or dreams or much hope (this season anyways). We just suck - period

 

[Bricklayer]

back the we had myths now we don't and also don't have fairy tales or dreams or much hope (this season anyways). We just suck - period

Well, now we've got nightmares and horror stories, so it all equals out.

 

[BayAreaKingsFan]

Right now? Yes, I think Reef is a better player than Webber.

I would kindly beg to differ on this point. I don't think Reef has the court awareness, the ability to make his teammates better, or the size and rebounding ability that Webber has. Webber has him beat in nearly every statistical category, his team has a better record, and he brings all sorts or intangibles and leadership skills that Shareef can't even come close to bringing.

6 rebounds a game is a misnomer. He's holding his man, over a 48 minute game, to less than 1 rebound more than he is grabbing.

He's boxing his man out - and at the end of the day - that's your job. Not getting rebounds, but blocking the opponent from getting a rebound.

I don't think a starting Power forwards job is to simply block his opponent from getting the rebound. What if he blocks Garnett out from getting the board but in the process, Sczerbiak comes in and gets it? You could say that's it's Peja's fault for not blocking out Sczerbiak but at some point a power forward has to grab the rebound.

Our bench is terrible, starting with Jason Hart. What will it take for Ronnie Price to get some minutes? At least he doesn't run around like a chicken with his head cut off like Hart does. I thought Hart was supposed to be a good defender? Haven't seen that yet either.

 

[piksi]

Well, now we've got nightmares and horror stories, so it all equals out.

In one word - marriage

 

[BMiller52]

Shareef doesn't pump his teammates up or anything. He doesn't seem to have that passion or swagger webber does.

 

[Warhawk]

Please tell mr we are not goign to crack open the box entitled " the great myth of 2003-04" again. Or maybe closer to "The Great Myth of a half season of 2003-04 played entirely at home against crappy opponents while suffering no injuries of any kind." Sure to go down in history as one of the all time red herrings in the history of the sport.

I was proud of the guys for pulling it together to start that season, less proud as things went along and it realized how many people were completely bedazzled by our non-defending non-rebounding all looks and no guts squad, less still when certain members of that team more or less quit down the stretch in a snit fit.

And Webber was still part of that team, even while it was off to the good start. They still knew who they were. Still knew they had an ace in the hole (or so it was thought), that they were still the Sacramento Kings, still contenders etc. Much of that was myth, but the power of belief is a funny thing.

You act like they played 10 games against the Hawks, all at home. They had played about 3/4 of the season (60+/- games, wasn't it?) and had the best record in the league. You cannot go through 3/4 of a season and not be tested and not play good teams. That isn't a "red herring" or a "great myth". It is most of a season playing inspired and exciting ball. They didn't know how quickly Chris would be back, so they went out and balled the best they could. They were a good (not great) team, and Chris coming back screwed up the chemistry they had forged. Vlade left because of it, according to several reports, including the Rise Guys this morning and Grant a couple weeks ago.

I have never said Chris wasn't an awesome player or did wonderful things here. But he was an entirely different player post-injury, and lots of folks seem to keep glossing over that fact.

 

[Warhawk]

And since when has a lack of injuries been something to complain about around here? You say it like it is a bad thing....

I looked it up - 23 games played post-injury. I assume that doesn't include playoffs, so that would be 59 games or 71% of the season he missed.

 

[Kings241]

Yea people always point fingers on our starters too much but really don't even consider the fact that we don't have a bench. We were expecting too much out of Kevin Martin but I guess we forgot that this is only his 2nd year. And then you got Kenny Thomas who was impressing last season off the bench and starting but sucks this year. If you really look at our starters numbers you can see that we have a good solid starting unit and it's just bench, defense and rebounding we lack. Even if we had Webber with this bench we would still be under .500.

 

[love_them_kings]

Oh really?

His on-court effective rating is a 16.8 and is allowing his opponent an effectiveness of 18.2. This translates to a -1.6 effectiveness when he's on the floor.

Reef's on-court effective rating is 20.0 and is allowing his opponent an effectiveness of 13.6. This translates to a +6.3 effectiveness when he's on the floor.



This "idiot" will take a stab at answering your pointed question:

Before Webber Trade:
Strong Bench

After Webber Trade:
Lack of a bench

I agree that our bench is horrible (ironic too, since our bench is largely composed of the 3 guys that we got for Webb), but you really think our bench is the primary reason we are losing games, lack leadership, and don't get respect from other teams? Granted a great bench would help win some games, but they are not the only difference between the record we have now and what we used to be. And, last time I checked, leadership usually comes from the starters more than the bench.

 

[Kings241]

I agree that our bench is horrible (ironic too, since our bench is largely composed of the 3 guys that we got for Webb), but you really think our bench is the primary reason we are losing games, lack leadership, and don't get respect from other teams? Granted a great bench would help win some games, but they are not the only difference between the record we have now and what we used to be. And, last time I checked, leadership usually comes from the starters more than the bench.

Mike Bibby should be a leader. He has stayed here the longest now and also accepted his role as a leader. Its time that we point fingers on him instead of feeling guilty and blaming others. Oh and a bench is very important unless you a team like the Pistons where each one of your players are talented offensivly and defensivly.

 

[playmaker0017]

I would kindly beg to differ on this point. I don't think Reef has the court awareness, the ability to make his teammates better, or the size and rebounding ability that Webber has. Webber has him beat in nearly every statistical category, his team has a better record, and he brings all sorts or intangibles and leadership skills that Shareef can't even come close to bringing.

Yes - and it's translating into "OH SO MANY MORE WINS" for the team.

As for Webber beating him in every statistical category - you have to look at the numbers as a whole for them to mean anything. He's averaging fewer assists/48 than Reef and more TOs. He's shooting an abysmal shooting %, but is only averaging more points than Shareef because he's shooting 18 times to get his 19 points. Reef is averaging .46PPM compared to Webber at .48PPM ... but is shooting it far less.

Webber is getting a boat load more rebounds - and is beating his man by +2 rebounds a game .... but is allowing his man to kill him in every other respect.

Webber is one of the players that is actually allowing his man to beat him on a nightly basis.

I don't think a starting Power forwards job is to simply block his opponent from getting the rebound.

Then you don't understand the game of basketball. I'm not knocking you, but this is a basic tenet of the game. You box your man out and get the ball.

What's happening is that Reef is boxing his man out, is in position to get the ball and Bonzi/Martin have come in and gobbled it up. He's not fighting his teammates over a simple stat.

It's a team game and every players job is to box out an opponent. If done properly, a player on your team will get a rebound.

You can tell how effective a player is by seeing how many offensive rebounds they are allowing per game or how many rebounds in general.

Reef, and I have this confirmed now, has been playing with a severely tweaked back. He hurt it after the Hornets game and has quit overextending himself for rebounds and has become more fundamental. He says that he gets the rebounds when the team needs them and will do his part ... and he has.

 

[love_them_kings]

Mike Bibby should be a leader. He has stayed here the longest now and also accepted his role as a leader. Its time that we point fingers on him instead of feeling guilty and blaming others. Oh and a bench is very important unless you a team like the Pistons where each one of your players are talented offensivly and defensivly.

I never said a bench wasn't important, I just said a lack of bench is not ALL that is wrong with this team.

And, yes, Mike Bibby should be a leader. I had hoped he would be a leader. But, despite saying it once to the media, do you think he's really filled the role? I'm just not sure he has it in him.

 

[playmaker0017]

I agree that our bench is horrible (ironic too, since our bench is largely composed of the 3 guys that we got for Webb), but you really think our bench is the primary reason we are losing games, lack leadership, and don't get respect from other teams? Granted a great bench would help win some games, but they are not the only difference between the record we have now and what we used to be. And, last time I checked, leadership usually comes from the starters more than the bench.

Leadership is a great thing that comes top down. I don't think our coach is leading us and shows on the floor.

The first thing I ever posted here was how I felt that Adleman was playing around in preseason too much and needed to get this starting unit some work. I've felt that Adleman continues to make simple mistakes that are hurting us at every turn. He's not a bad coach and doesn't have a bad system - he just doesn't coach these guys to victory and allows them to play lax instead of demanding effort.

But, yes, I feel the bench and a lack of defensive effort is the difference between wins last year and wins this year.

You can see it in the numbers. Our starting unit does what it needs to scoring wise ... but won't stop opponents. It isn't Reef that is doing it... it's Bibby, Miller, Peja ... ALL with worse defense than last year. Also Bonzi is providing worse defense than either the Cat or Doug last year.

You can't play pee-poor defense and expect to win.

You can't expect the starters to keep overcoming the deficits the bench create. It destroys momentum.

 

[piksi]

Mike Bibby should be a leader. He has stayed here the longest now and also accepted his role as a leader.

a) debatable

b) wrong

c) wrong

 

[love_them_kings]

Webber is one of the players that is actually allowing his man to beat him on a nightly basis.

He says that he gets the rebounds when the team needs them and will do his part ... and he has.

yeah, KT really worked him over last night.

So, I guess that all those nights we lost because we were completely outrebounded Shareef just didn't think we needed the rebounds?? I'm not trying to cut on Shareef, but this team needs every rebound we can get. And then some. I like Shareef, but I don't think he's anywhere near the player Webb is, and he definitely does not have the impact on our team that Webb did.

 

[playmaker0017]

yeah, KT really worked him over last night.

One game does not a season make.

So, I guess that all those nights we lost because we were completely outrebounded Shareef just didn't think we needed the rebounds??

No, he was hurt. Was there any reason he should cause MORE damage to the point that he can't play?

At least he was man enough to stay in the game and not sit out because of a sore back. He was playing through it as best he could ... without injuring it further.

Is that the right move? I dunno.

But, it was a damn sharp drop after that game.

 

[love_them_kings]

No, he was hurt. Was there any reason he should cause MORE damage to the point that he can't play?

At least he was man enough to stay in the game and not sit out because of a sore back. He was playing through it as best he could ... without injuring it further.

Is that the right move? I dunno.

But, it was a damn sharp drop after that game.

I don't see any point in hurting himself more, no, and I respect his desire to play through pain. Don't know if it helped us or hurt us, but I respect the passion behind it. I was just taking issue with saying that he got us all the rebounds that were important, because obviously that's an area we need help with.

 

[KP]

yeah, KT really worked him over last night.

So, I guess that all those nights we lost because we were completely outrebounded Shareef just didn't think we needed the rebounds?? I'm not trying to cut on Shareef, but this team needs every rebound we can get. And then some. I like Shareef, but I don't think he's anywhere near the player Webb is, and he definitely does not have the impact on our team that Webb did.

No, no, no LTK don't you get it? Reef boxes his man out more than any other player in the league! I have it right here in my obscure roland rankings and 82games.com fake *** twistable stats! So what if Reef doesn't secure the rebound? At least he stops his man from getting it... hey, he's doing his job... can you really ask him to do more with what he makes?? ...Maybe you should be blaming Miller, Peja and Bibby... yeah right.

Enough with the people who just started watching this team intently this year tell us about the supposed impact or lack of impact not having Webber on this team makes. The whole rebounding stat you(Play) keep refering to shows exactly what is wrong with Reef in the 1st place, and why his teams never seem to gain anything from his presence, he's prob happy just boxing his man out... and that's the problem. We Need To Secure Rebounds. HE is one of the worst players at his position in the entire league at doing so. When he doesn't secure a rebound (even if he stops his man from getting it) it gives the opposing team the Oportunity to grab the offensive board and score second chance pts. Yes, the other guys have weaknesses at boxing their man out, which is exactly why Reef(if he can) needs to do everything in his power to grab that board to even prevent the chance of it happening. This isn't a competition between teamates, this is a TEAM. You should help to mask your teamates weaknesses not help the other team exploit them. Of course, I don't think Reef can really do it since he is an awful rebounder anyway, but still.

 

[Kings241]

I believe Adelman has come to the point where he doesn't even trust the bench anymore. Remember a while back some of our bench players would sometimes get starter like minutes? I've noticed that during most games we would be up in the first quarter but as soon as the bench rotation steps in, we start losing the lead and eventually letting the game slip away. And it's always harder to make a comeback then to hold on to a lead and win a game.

 

[Kings241]

No, no, no don't you get it? Reef boxes his man out more than any other player in the league! I have it right here in my obscure roland rankings and 82games.com fake *** twistable stats! So what if Reef doesn't secure the rebound? At least he stops his man from getting it... hey, he's doing his job... can you really ask him to do more with what he makes?? ...Maybe you should be blaming Miller, Peja and Bibby... yeah right.

Enough with the people who just started watching this team intently this year tell us about the supposed impact or lack of impact not having Webber on this team makes. The whole rebounding stat you(Play) keep refering to shows exactly what is wrong with Reef in the 1st place, and why his teams never seem to gain anything from his presence, he's prob happy just boxing his man out... and that's the problem. We Need To Secure Rebounds. HE is one of the worst players at his position in the entire league at doing so. When he doesn't secure a rebound (even if he stops his man from getting it) it gives the opposing team the Oportunity to grab the offensive board and score second chance pts. Yes, the other guys have weaknesses at boxing their man out, which is exactly why Reef(if he can) needs to do everything in his power to grab that board to even prevent the chance of it happening. This isn't a competition between teamates, this is a TEAM. You should help to mask your teamates weaknesses not help the other team exploit them. Of course I don't think Reef can really do it anyway since he is an awful rebounder anyway, but still.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shareef_abdur-rahim/index.html

Shareef has been averaging more then 8 rebounds during his whole NBA Career. I'm sure he wouldn't stop rebounding just for the sake of being lazy . I don't remember us being a good rebounder when Webber was here before last season. We would get outrebounded by a lot of teams. Anyways I don't see anything wrong with Reef boxing out and letting Bonzi get the rebound.

 

[playmaker0017]

This isn't a competition between teamates, this is a TEAM. You should help to mask your teamates weaknesses not help the other team exploit them.

Then I guess it would be too much to ask that Bibby and Miller play a little smidgeon of defense to help mask their teammate's weaknesses, eh?

Look, our problem is not a paltry 2 rebounds per game ... or even 4.

It's DEFENSE!

We're giving up more than 100PPG.

The only person on the team playing a lick of defense has been Shareef. So, if he doesn't get an extra 2-4 rebounds ... but keeps his man from getting and turns his man into a volume, low percentage shooter ... then I'll take it. In fact, EVERY GM IN THE LEAGUE WOULD TAKE IT! It's not perfect, but it's damn good.

 

[playmaker0017]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shareef_abdur-rahim/index.html

Shareef has been averaging more then 8 rebounds during his whole NBA Career. I'm sure he wouldn't stop rebounding just for the sake of being lazy . I don't remember us being a good rebounder when Webber was here before last season. We would get outrebounded by a lot of teams. Anyways I don't see anything wrong with Reef boxing out and letting Bonzi get the rebound.

Not to mention, I felt like I'd check out what he was saying ...

Before tweaking his back:
7.58 RPG

After:
5.15RPG

 

[KP]

The only person on the team playing a lick of defense has been Shareef.

Look I know your friends with the guy but that satement^ just isn't true... He's just not as good defensively as you seem to think he is. Look, take what I'm saying with some perspective... Reef is hardly the biggest problem on this team, it goes way beyond him, but IMO he isn't half the player, and hasn't had even half the impact that some people seem to think he has. But hey.. he's your boy, I can respect that. It's National Championship Time, Peace.

 

[Zyphen]

I don't even care too much about the actual discussion. I'd just like to point out the usage of crap statistics by some posters to support an argument, like per48 and +/- when the raw numbers and direct statistics are in direct conflict. I don't believe I've picked apart +/- yet but I think some other posters have done so in the past. Anyways:

Brand's Net +/-: +2.4
Medvedenko's Net +/-: +106.5 (not a typo)

Mobley's Net +/-: 11.4
Mobley's Net +/- last year: -3.0

Webber's Net +/- this year: +0.5
Webber's Net +/- in 2002-03 (pre-injury): +2.0

So, without even in-depth analysis of the flaws in +/-, we can see some absurdities here. I can pick out a lot more gems but I especially like how Mobley has seen a 14 pt increase (apparently he's a superstar now) and Webb has apparently never mattered much to our team, even at our best.

+/- and per48 have a lot in common. They're a crap shoot that sometimes coincide with reality. They just happen to coincide enough where people actually decide to pay attention to them. But you know what's better? The analysis of several stats and overall play rather than depending on one stat to tell you everything. Any stat (+/-) that attempts to condense the worth of a player into one numerical value is suspect. How many variables are being tied together in the process? How many actually have any dependence on each other?

There's a simpler explanation for Chris's low +/- besides him being irrelevant. Look at Sixer rotations, look at opponents' rotations, look at AI's minutes, and think about it.

 

[BMiller52]

Then I guess it would be too much to ask that Bibby and Miller play a little smidgeon of defense to help mask their teammate's weaknesses, eh?

Look, our problem is not a paltry 2 rebounds per game ... or even 4.

It's DEFENSE!

We're giving up more than 100PPG.

The only person on the team playing a lick of defense has been Shareef. So, if he doesn't get an extra 2-4 rebounds ... but keeps his man from getting and turns his man into a volume, low percentage shooter ... then I'll take it. In fact, EVERY GM IN THE LEAGUE WOULD TAKE IT! It's not perfect, but it's damn good.

Then you and Shareef and another GM can "take it" to another team thank you. He's a bad defender, a bad rebounder, and a ball stopper. There's no two ways about it.

 

[BMiller52]

I don't even care too much about the actual discussion. I'd just like to point out the usage of crap statistics by some posters to support an argument, like per48 and +/- when the raw numbers and direct statistics are in direct conflict. I don't believe I've picked apart +/- yet but I think some other posters have done so in the past. Anyways:

Brand's Net +/-: +2.4
Medvedenko's Net +/-: +106.5 (not a typo)

Mobley's Net +/-: 11.4
Mobley's Net +/- last year: -3.0

Webber's Net +/- this year: +0.5
Webber's Net +/- in 2002-03 (pre-injury): +2.0

So, without even in-depth analysis of the flaws in +/-, we can see some absurdities here. I can pick out a lot more gems but I especially like how Mobley has seen a 14 pt increase (apparently he's a superstar now) and Webb has apparently never mattered much to our team, even at our best.

+/- and per48 have a lot in common. They're a crap shoot that sometimes coincide with reality. They just happen to coincide enough where people actually decide to pay attention to them. But you know what's better? The analysis of several stats and overall play rather than depending on one stat to tell you everything. Any stat (+/-) that attempts to condense the worth of a player into one numerical value is suspect. How many variables are being tied together in the process? How many actually have any dependence on each other?

There's a simpler explanation for Chris's low +/- besides him being irrelevant. Look at Sixer rotations, look at opponents' rotations, look at AI's minutes, and think about it.

Lesson to be learned today: WE NEED MEDVEDENKO!

 

[playmaker0017]

He's a bad defender, a bad rebounder, and a ball stopper. There's no two ways about it.

This coming from a fan of Brad Miller?