The Vlade question (split)

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Cousins still manages to amaze me with how good he is. We need to get some better players in here asap to keep him. Let Vlade go back managing some team in china where nobody cares or he can start a dynasty on 2k17 for all I care and let's throw some serious money at a good GM. I don't want to see DMC walk
 
Cousins still manages to amaze me with how good he is. We need to get some better players in here asap to keep him. Let Vlade go back managing some team in china where nobody cares or he can start a dynasty on 2k17 for all I care and let's throw some serious money at a good GM. I don't want to see DMC walk

Vlade is Cuz's GM. He also has Cuz's back. If you truly want to keep Cuz, then you absolutely need to be for keeping Vlade too.
 
Vlade is Cuz's GM. He also has Cuz's back. If you truly want to keep Cuz, then you absolutely need to be for keeping Vlade too.
Does cousins want to win or lose? If he wants to stick with vlade he will lose
 
Vlade is Cuz's GM. He also has Cuz's back. If you truly want to keep Cuz, then you absolutely need to be for keeping Vlade too.
Do we really know how strong this bond is? I am not sure, Vlade did suspend Boogie for one game at the end of last season, and remember Boogie saying over summer he didn't know what the team (Vlade) was doing relative to the draft. I think Boogie likes Vlade, but I am not sure they are inseparable.
 
Cousins wants to trust.

He can win absolutely anywhere but here.

Except you have yet to acknowledge the jump he has made this year to superstardom, which is nothing to sneeze out, and don't take my word for it, check the stats, so frankly your assessment is suspect. The more accurate assessment is that IF Boogie was the same player as last year and previous years, he could absolutely NOT win anywhere but here. Or here. As it stands he can win anywhere including here, if our SG and PF position was not total crap.
 
Except you have yet to acknowledge the jump he has made this year to superstardom, which is nothing to sneeze out, and don't take my word for it, check the stats, so frankly your assessment is suspect. The more accurate assessment is that IF Boogie was the same player as last year and previous years, he could absolutely NOT win anywhere but here. Or here. As it stands he can win anywhere including here, if our SG and PF position was not total crap.

I most certainly do not have to acknowledge some idiotic theory that Cousins wasn't already a superstar player, even if such a theory is a useful way to get the fools to cross over now with the excuse that oh NOW I can support him.

But in an odd, confused, and backhanded way, you have hit upon what IS an actual dynamic, maybe THE dynamic in favor of keeping Cuz, and hwy some of the exaggerated handwringing and know-nothing national media reports are silly. And that is that this is finally getting back to closer to Mike Malone's use of him. And Cousins was excelling with that use, he is excelling again. He bonded with Malone. He likes Joerger. In short after two lost years of owner/gerbil inspired idiocy, we are finally back to doing it right. And if anything is going to give us a chance to keep him with less than a great team around him, it is indeed that very thing. Cuz is a "family man". Vlade fosters family. Cuz needs to trust the people around him, and in particular authority figures who he generally does not. So a major part of any appeal to keep Cuz is having a GM and coach he likes and respects who are using him in a way he likes. We do indeed have that. Minus Vlade the picture get less rosy, and Cuz would very appropriately see it as more chaos, and likely say f this. Stability and family.
 
I most certainly do not have to acknowledge some idiotic theory that Cousins wasn't already a superstar player, even if such a theory is a useful way to get the fools to cross over now with the excuse that oh NOW I can support him.

But in an odd, confused, and backhanded way, you have hit upon what IS an actual dynamic, maybe THE dynamic in favor of keeping Cuz, and hwy some of the exaggerated handwringing and know-nothing national media reports are silly. And that is that this is finally getting back to closer to Mike Malone's use of him. And Cousins was excelling with that use, he is excelling again. He bonded with Malone. He likes Joerger. In short after two lost years of owner/gerbil inspired idiocy, we are finally back to doing it right. And if anything is going to give us a chance to keep him with less than a great team around him, it is indeed that very thing. Cuz is a "family man". Vlade fosters family. Cuz needs to trust the people around him, and in particular authority figures who he generally does not. So a major part of any appeal to keep Cuz is having a GM and coach he likes and respects who are using him in a way he likes. We do indeed have that. Minus Vlade the picture get less rosy, and Cuz would very appropriately see it as more chaos, and likely say f this. Stability and family.

A GMs principle job is to evaluate talent not foster personal relations. I have no trust in his ability as a talent evaluator given his lack of experience and results so far. I don't have confidence that he will have the aptitude of handling when to tear things down or not either. He's a random guy handling our personnel IMO
 
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A GMs principle job is to evaluate talent not foster personal relations. I have no trust in his ability as a talent evaluator given his lack of experience and results so far. I don't have confidence that he will have the aptitude of handling when to tear things down or not either. He's a random guy handling our personnel IMO

One of a GM's principle jobs is getting along with the franchise player. If he doesn't, he won't have one for long.

In our particular case that is particularly true.

Now winning will automatically help you get along in most cases, assuming no over the top buttholery. But we have no time for building a long term big winner now. Boogie will make a choice based on what we have already accumulated, + or - one or two tweaking trades. There's no play where we say, oh yeah, we fired the guy you trusted, but really THIS time we hired a guy who will brilliantly acquire talent, just give it 2 or 3 more years....

We're out of time, so you have to know your strengths. We've got a sparkling new arena, we've got a good big man coach who Cuz likes, and we've got a family guy GM famed for his ability to build chemistry with almost anyone, and who BTW is responsible for hiring that coach. That's our pitch until Cuz either reups or is gone (and obviously it will be helped immensely if the current team finds its stride and wins a fair share of games). And if Cuz DOES reup, then Vlade will have been a principle person in making that happen, and firing him would be a betrayal, at least in the short term.

So the save Cuz ball is in Vlade's court. If he fails, and Cuz leaves/is shown the door, that's when you can realistically talk about Vlade's future status.
 
One of a GM's principle jobs is getting along with the franchise player. If he doesn't, he won't have one for long.

In our particular case that is particularly true.

Now winning will automatically help you get along in most cases, assuming no over the top buttholery. But we have no time for building a long term big winner now. Boogie will make a choice based on what we have already accumulated, + or - one or two tweaking trades. There's no play where we say, oh yeah, we fired the guy you trusted, but really THIS time we hired a guy who will brilliantly acquire talent, just give it 2 or 3 more years....

We're out of time, so you have to know your strengths. We've got a sparkling new arena, we've got a good big man coach who Cuz likes, and we've got a family guy GM famed for his ability to build chemistry with almost anyone, and who BTW is responsible for hiring that coach. That's our pitch until Cuz either reups or is gone (and obviously it will be helped immensely if the current team finds its stride and wins a fair share of games). And if Cuz DOES reup, then Vlade will have been a principle person in making that happen, and firing him would be a betrayal, at least in the short term.

So the save Cuz ball is in Vlade's court. If he fails, and Cuz leaves/is shown the door, that's when you can realistically talk about Vlade's future status.
Vlade is still a new GM whether he trades cuz or not he should be given time to build a winner. IMO trading cuz is the first step. Our current situation with what avenues we have to build talent is terrible. 90% of that is not is not on Vlade . It's on Vivek. I hope vivek realizes this.
 
One of a GM's principle jobs is getting along with the franchise player. If he doesn't, he won't have one for long.

In our particular case that is particularly true.

Now winning will automatically help you get along in most cases, assuming no over the top buttholery. But we have no time for building a long term big winner now. Boogie will make a choice based on what we have already accumulated, + or - one or two tweaking trades. There's no play where we say, oh yeah, we fired the guy you trusted, but really THIS time we hired a guy who will brilliantly acquire talent, just give it 2 or 3 more years....

We're out of time, so you have to know your strengths. We've got a sparkling new arena, we've got a good big man coach who Cuz likes, and we've got a family guy GM famed for his ability to build chemistry with almost anyone, and who BTW is responsible for hiring that coach. That's our pitch until Cuz either reups or is gone (and obviously it will be helped immensely if the current team finds its stride and wins a fair share of games). And if Cuz DOES reup, then Vlade will have been a principle person in making that happen, and firing him would be a betrayal, at least in the short term.

So the save Cuz ball is in Vlade's court. If he fails, and Cuz leaves/is shown the door, that's when you can realistically talk about Vlade's future status.
I would go ahead and fire Vlade now. Do all you can to keep Cousins. No way he is going to stay around for this crap Show and by his remarks during the draft last year he doesn't agree with Vlade's draft decision. As I mentioned before, several of the minority owners are very vocal about Vlade's lack of knowledge and direction
 
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I would go ahead and fire Vlade now. Do all you can to keep Cousins. No way he is going to stay around for this crap Show and by his remarks during the draft last year he doesn't agree with Vlade's draft decision. As I mentioned before, several of the minority owners are very vocal about Vlade's lack of knowledge and direction

You would be very mistaken if you think I have much respect for the minority owners' opinions. I do not know any personally, but everytime I hear their opinions expressed I think Vivek may in fact be being too kind. There was at least some healthy subset of those neophyte dentists and car salesmen who were dedicated Karlites, not because they knew a damn thing about basketball, but because Karl was a familiar name and ooh, points!

I am sure there are some who could speak reasonably about basketball. Aside from the handful of former players, I'm not sure there are any who could actually hold a candle to Vlade's NBA knowledge.
 
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I most certainly do not have to acknowledge some idiotic theory that Cousins wasn't already a superstar player, even if such a theory is a useful way to get the fools to cross over now with the excuse that oh NOW I can support him.

But in an odd, confused, and backhanded way, you have hit upon what IS an actual dynamic, maybe THE dynamic in favor of keeping Cuz, and hwy some of the exaggerated handwringing and know-nothing national media reports are silly. And that is that this is finally getting back to closer to Mike Malone's use of him. And Cousins was excelling with that use, he is excelling again. He bonded with Malone. He likes Joerger. In short after two lost years of owner/gerbil inspired idiocy, we are finally back to doing it right. And if anything is going to give us a chance to keep him with less than a great team around him, it is indeed that very thing. Cuz is a "family man". Vlade fosters family. Cuz needs to trust the people around him, and in particular authority figures who he generally does not. So a major part of any appeal to keep Cuz is having a GM and coach he likes and respects who are using him in a way he likes. We do indeed have that. Minus Vlade the picture get less rosy, and Cuz would very appropriately see it as more chaos, and likely say f this. Stability and family.

I will grant you this: Boogie was a superstar in terms of raw production. But do you want to win or do you want a guy who posts a lot of raw stats? (This is rhetorical question.)

53% TS and 0.8 assist to turnover and sporadic defense does NOT qualify as a superstar. It qualifies more as a ball hog than hall of famer.

You can't win more than 35-40 games with your main weapon playing this way unless you have a Top 5 defense. If you dispute this assertion, compare his offensive efficiency to other dominant scorers of this era and you will see Boogie ranks at bottom. This ranking corresponds not uncoincidentally to our win ratio during his tenure.

Now the good news:

Boogie could have wallowed in finger-pointing and self-pity with half a decade of team failure over the summer. He didn't. He worked his butt off and went to hot yoga.

I am one of the most critical fans on this board, and if I can recognize the undeniable incremental improvement I would like to think there is a basis to it, since if the opposite occurred I would be the first to point it out!

The guy is better. Plain and simple.

He's actually damn fun to watch like never before because he can slice and dice like never before and embarrass fools. There's a new level of chew up and spit out opponents unwitnessed over the course of his career. And if you think otherwise I don't believe you. He's just a better player including low post moves, and patiently abusing edges and lanes and space he commands on the floor. If Boogie keeps up this current pace, he becomes a legitimate superstar for the first time.

His offseason regimen leading to Olympics included dropping 20-30 pounds, variables you do not wish acknowledge, disingenuously so. These are exciting developments for passionate fans. This is a ray of hope with Willie playing like garbage, Koufos wearing same oven mitts as last year, Lawson scoring 5 PPG before last night's "explosion", Tolliver getting $8 million to sit on bench, us getting punked by LAL on our home floor, Omri going from contributor to the doghouse....and Matt Barnes becoming our best PF. o_O

Boogie is 58% TS and 1.2 assist to turnover over 13 games.....versus 53% TS and 0.8 assist to turnover for his career. That's a dramatic uptick. All of the sudden his usage rate of 35% is justified.

In previous six years, Boogie was a guy who shot a lot turned it over a lot with occasional hot streaks. Now he's a guy you wouldn't mind see shoot more. You couldn't say that before. This is a more prominent development than anything you want to assert about his relationship with Vlade.

Let me ask you:

What did Vlade do for Boogie to get him a PF to play next to? What did he do so damn special but draft a bunch of guys playing in Reno? Vlade also brought in vets but unfortunately these vets are mediocrity personified. I don't think this engenders loyalty. It engenders frustration and status quo.

Vlade may represent family. But sometimes you want to get away from your family and form new alliances. It's like Durant going from OKC to GSW. Let's see what else is out there when current conditions are suboptimal. In the case of KD, he had a PG who wanted to dominate the ball and spotlight. In the case of Boogie, he has a GM who swung and missed a disconcerting amount of time. At some point, a sense of loyalty defers to a sense of competence. F**k loyalty, I wanna win. This is Boogie's mindset, and guys likes A-Slow-0, Willie and Koufos do nothing to appease it.
 
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I will grant you this: Boogie was a superstar in terms of raw production. But do you want to win or do you want a guy who posts a lot of raw stats? (This is rhetorical question.)

53% TS and 0.8 assist to turnover and sporadic defense does NOT qualify as a superstar. It qualifies more as a ball hog than hall of famer.

You can't win more than 35-40 games with your main weapon playing this way unless you have a Top 5 defense. If you dispute this assertion, compare his offensive efficiency to other dominant scorers of this era and you will see Boogie ranks at bottom. This ranking corresponds not uncoincidentally to our win ratio during his tenure.

Now the good news:

Boogie could have wallowed in finger-pointing and self-pity with half a decade of team failure over the summer. He didn't. He worked his butt off and went to hot yoga.

I am one of the most critical fans on this board, and if I can recognize the undeniable incremental improvement I would like to think there is a basis to it, since if the opposite occurred I would be the first to point it out!

The guy is better. Plain and simple.

He's actually damn fun to watch like never before because he can slice and dice like never before and embarrass fools. There's a new level of chew up and spit out opponents unwitnessed over the course of his career. And if you think otherwise I don't believe you. He's just a better player including low post moves, and patiently abusing edges and lanes and space he commands on the floor. If Boogie keeps up this current pace, he becomes a legitimate superstar for the first time.

His offseason regimen leading to Olympics included dropping 20-30 pounds, variables you do not wish acknowledge, disingenuously so. These are exciting developments for passionate fans. This is a ray of hope with Willie playing like garbage, Koufos wearing same oven mitts as last year, Lawson scoring 5 PPG before last night's "explosion", Tolliver getting $8 million to sit on bench, us getting punked by LAL on our home floor, Omri going from contributor to the doghouse....and Matt Barnes becoming our best PF. o_O

Boogie is 58% TS and 1.2 assist to turnover over 13 games.....versus 53% TS and 0.8 assist to turnover for his career. That's a dramatic uptick. All of the sudden his usage rate of 35% is justified.

In previous six years, Boogie was a guy who shot a lot turned it over a lot with occasional hot streaks. Now he's a guy you wouldn't mind see shoot more. You couldn't say that before. This is a more prominent development than anything you want to assert about his relationship with Vlade.

Let me ask you:

What did Vlade do for Boogie to get him a PF to play next to? What did he do so damn special but draft a bunch of guys playing in Reno? Vlade also brought in vets but unfortunately these vets are mediocrity personified. I don't think this engenders loyalty. It engenders frustration and status quo.

Vlade may represent family. But sometimes you want to get away from your family and form new alliances. It's like Durant going from OKC to GSW. Let's see what else is out there when current conditions are suboptimal. In the case of KD, he had a PG who wanted to dominate the ball and spotlight. In the case of Boogie, he has a GM who swung and missed a disconcerting amount of time. At some point, a sense of loyalty defers to a sense of competence. F**k loyalty, I wanna win. This is Boogie's mindset, and guys likes A-Slow-0, Willie and Koufos do nothing to appease it.
This post gets A++++ or the Mark Cuban clap. Vlade is clueless. Get him out of here!
 
This post gets A++++ or the Mark Cuban clap. Vlade is clueless. Get him out of here!

The only attribute that Vlade has shown so far is level-head and an aptitude to keep the peace, serve as mediator between hostile parties, aka Karl and Boogie, anyone and Boogie, or Rudy and desire to play elsewhere.

As far as personnel acumen let's count second-guessable decisions:
  • WCS over Stanley Johnson, Winslow, Mudiay and Myles Turner
  • Affalo (A-Slow-O) and 12.5 M over Seth Curry for half or less
  • Tolliver and 8M over Quincy for half or less
  • Papa , Euro and Skal over Chriss, an 18 year old leaper with an outside jumper
  • Near max deal to a guy with busted Achilles (Wes Matthews: PER = 8.4 and FG% of 31%)
I am grasping for semblance of competence. Okay, here's a gold star. Recognizing Karl needed to be taken to pasture and replaced with up and comer like Joerger. Good move, Vlade. And here's another: Dumping Marco for a mid 1st round pick and Malachi.

But you have to ask if these were more fortuitous circumstances than keen insight, that is, exploiting the Hornets managerial ineptitude and Grizzlies lack of appreciation for a good coach. Basically if you objectively evaluate Vlade's tenure since assuming the reigns, he hasn't proved a damn thing except an inclination to grasp at straws. The 76er trade amounted to a 1st round future obligation in exchange for free agent signings that did not translate to wins: Rondo, Koufos, and Marco. Two are gone and one is about to be demoted. It was a risk worth taking, granted, but it was not parlayed into anything tangible.

If I am Vivek, I am wondering what is the difference between Vlade and Pete and Mullin? None have taken their assets at their disposal (cap space, draft picks, trade assets) and converted into legitimate basis for optimism. The harsh reality is that we are spinning our wheels until Boogie's contract expires. One counterargument is we reserved our cap space for next summer to do something big. But do you trust the guy empowered to do something big? I don't.
 
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To me if there is a blow it up scenario the first people that should be fired well is the front office and we bring in someone from the Spurs organization (or another successful lineage) before actually making the moves. So far what Vlade has done has been awful but off course that's can still change if this roster somehow pulls it together and WCS becomes a good player (all which I doubt).
If I am Vivek, I am wondering what is the difference between Vlade and Pete and Mullin? None have taken their assets at their disposal (cap space, draft picks, trade assets) and converted into legitimate basis for optimism. The harsh reality is that we are spinning our wheels until Boogie's contract expires.

One valid counterargument is we reserved cap space for next summer to do something big? But do you trust the guy empowered to do something big?

Vlade committed manslaughter where as Pete/Mullin was straight murder but the results have been the same the team basically.
 
I'm willing to hold off on the fire Vlade train strictly for stability purposes and/or if one qualified GM becomes available all of a sudden. I'd like to give the guy another season or two before I call for his head.
I think I agree with you. I am not ready to fire Vlade yet. But I am far from impressed.
 
I think I agree with you. I am not ready to fire Vlade yet. But I am far from impressed.

All we can really hope for at this point in time is that along the way, yes...he will make some mistakes, the hope remains that he can right these mistakes and not have ones where it sets the franchise back even more than it all ready is.
 
Honestly I'm not sure who could do better. We haven't been in a position lately to get a premier draft pick. FAs aren't dying to come to the Kings. All other franchises know we are talent sellers in the trade market. We need them more than they need us. We are basically playing 4 on 5 with the rest of the league. I have a hard time blaming Vlade for that. Vivek absolute.
 
One thing about Vlade, is that he seems like a man who recognizes his weaknesses and gets help. The dude is learning how to GM, and isn't doing too bad a job at it either. He wasn't given a lot to work with by the previous FO. Rebuilding, when done properly, is still a process that takes years. We're all impatient because of how awful this team has been run in the past decade, but I think Vlade has us pointed in the right direction.

He has a definite vision for the team, which is reflected in his FA acquisitions and the hiring of Joerger. For better or worse, he also makes some gutsy trades. He doesn't rest on his laurels like PDA or even GP.

Now, when we get to his drafting acumen? Woo lard. It's painful. Please hire some scouts, buddy! And don't let Vivek into the war room!
 
You have looked at "the whole Vlade package" and said throw him out. I've lived with this same package and every other package we have had and absolutely want to keep Vladeas ou GM. It's hard for me to even accept that such "get rid of him" views are held by Kings fans. Let's get back to focusing on improving the team we have and getting some wins.
 
We have Vlade and let's keep Vlade. He is ne of the best things that has happened to the Kings organization and I have seen them all.

I have to admit that I am surprised and amazed that Kings fans have the views of Vlade that expressed above.

Let's get back to seeing the team we have get better and start winning more ball games.
 
Vlade has loaded up the roster expecting a deal maybe by mid December. Otherwise, this is becoming a waste of young talents, rotting in Reno, a squishy situation for contract year players (Rudy, Ben, Casspi), a disappointments for the new guys he signed not contributing enough (i.e. Temple, Tolliver).

With Barnes looking like he still got his cogs intact, I think it's time to revisit a deal with Ben (while he's kind of hot right now), Rudy, and DC (I keep thinking what Ty has feed DJ and why he is still starting over DC). That trio could at least net us a borderline All-Star maybe and some useful personel.
 
To me if there is a blow it up scenario the first people that should be fired well is the front office and we bring in someone from the Spurs organization (or another successful lineage) before actually making the moves. So far what Vlade has done has been awful but off course that's can still change if this roster somehow pulls it together and WCS becomes a good player (all which I doubt).


Vlade committed manslaughter where as Pete/Mullin was straight murder but the results have been the same the team basically.
Agree...Blow up the front office and start over. Keep Joerger as the head coach. The past two drafts alone are enough to warrant a change at GM. I have zero confidence Vlade can build any type of winning team.
 
We have Vlade and let's keep Vlade. He is ne of the best things that has happened to the Kings organization and I have seen them all.

I have to admit that I am surprised and amazed that Kings fans have the views of Vlade that expressed above.

Let's get back to seeing the team we have get better and start winning more ball games.
Why is he one of the best? Because he is a former player everyone loved? I liked him as a player but not a GM
 
I gathered that from your posts. Let's get back to basketball. We have agame tonight with Toronto, a tough foe.
I understand that...but I still don't understand how he is one of the best things that has happened to the Kings?
 
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