The problem with Shareef

[CruzDude]

SAR is better than many of you will admit. Not only did he shut down KG but Duncan as well. Defense against other big guys who are major scorers is a different Defense than against drivers to the bucket or outside shooters.

CWebb was good against some 4's but KG and Duncan ate him up. No SAR is a good piece for Kings. I do agree that he needs some on the team who will get double teams as that will open up his natural game. Now without the 2 biggest scorers SAR has to step up and hit 20-30 as well as defending the other big guy.

Miller should do OK vs. Dampier and SAR will take Nowitzki. Should be interesting.

SAR is not "the"problem nor much of a problem. Kings need a leader who is a major ball handler: Bobby, CWebb, Mitch, Bibby of the past, etc. Miller is not that guy, it is not his personality any more than Peja. Gotta be someone else..... and soon

 

[nbrans]

I didn't know that someone had to be a "banger" to be considered non-soft. I don't remember Chris Webber banging people around. Najera and Fortson are great at knocking people around. Problem is they pick up quick fouls and don't help their teams all that much.

And KP, I disagree that Shareef's not a good rotator on defense. He's great on rotating on pick and rolls to stop penetration and is getting better about watching out for Bibby's guy penetrating into the lane -- he gets lots of practice on that one. A lot of the layups come on Brad Miller's side of the defense.

 

[D-Mass]

On the LONG list of problems the Kings have, Shareef's deficiencies are towards the bottom of that list. Sure, he's no Webber...but anyone who expected him to be like Webber had unrealistic expectations to begin with. But that deal is done...we've got much bigger concerns at this point.

 

[CruzDude]

Amen D-Mass. On the head.

 

[KP]

KP, I disagree that Shareef's not a good rotator on defense. He's great on rotating on pick and rolls to stop penetration and is getting better about watching out for Bibby's guy penetrating into the lane -- he gets lots of practice on that one.

We disagree about a lot of stuff... I dunno what you are watching but guys are going right by Bibby, then Brad, then Reef on their way to a layup on a regular basis... still... like I said he's hardly the biggest culprit on defense, Bibby, Brad being the biggest, Pejas help defense also sucking on a major level, but Reef is hardly a good defender either, the Kings are just as soft inside as they have ever been and his presence has not changed that in any way. He's a tweener, and he always will be. I will agree that he has gotten better, and the more he learns about this team the better he will get, he is a smart player and a good player but that will only get him so far, defensively it's just a bad frontcourt when he's paired with Brad, like I said especially since he can't board to save his life. Even when we manage stop someone, we can't collect the rebound and he is a part of that.

 

[KP]

we've got much bigger concerns at this point.

I agree 100% with you, but since there are threads about all the other Kings players and their problems what's one more? The team is so bad right now no one should be exempt from some scrutiny... besides Bonzi of course.

 

[Bricklayer]

SAR is and always has been a problem player.

A non-rebounding non-shotblocking power forward? Garbage if it were not for the excellent post game. He defends like Peja, who he resembles in a lot of ways -- "pretty" offensive game gets people over-excited, plays solid positional defense on his man, gets terminally overcredited for it by Kings fans, does not effectively help, does not stop penetration, does not take care of the defensive glass. Puts TREMENDOUS pressure on the rest of his teammates to cover up for the things he does not do, and is supposed to do as a PF. And of course we have a team fundamentally not constructed to cover up yet another softie's reboudning or help defense problems, since everybody else shares them.

All of the above means does not have much if any impact on wins and losses UNLESS -- and this is speculation because its been 10 years and nobody has found a group yet that Reef can significantly impact -- but my theory is the ONLY way he can be an impact player is if you give him the ball to score a LOT. He is much like Peja -- if he's not scoring, he's not helping. This is how these injuries might help. Well, help SAR at least. It frees up the logjam of shots. Of course given that many a bad team has thrown the ball to SAR cosntantly as an offensive strategy only to end up in the lottery, not sure there is any joy there either. But at least its using a player for what he is useful at. Reef is NOT an off the ball player. You have him out there you need to get him the ball. Otherwise you'd be better off wiht a Brian Skinner banging, rebounding and blocking shots.

 

[KP]

A non-rebounding non-shotblocking power forward? Garbage if it were not for the excellent post game. He defends like Peja, who he resembles in a lot of ways -- "pretty" offensive game gets people over-excited, plays solid positional defense on his man, gets terminally overcredited for it by Kings fans, does not effectively help, does not stop penetration, does not take care of the defensive glass. Puts TREMENDOUS pressure on the rest of his teammates to cover up for the things he does not do, and is supposed to do as a PF. And of course we have a team fundamentally not constructed to cover up yet another softies reboudning or help defense problems, since everybody else shares them.

That^ pretty much sums it up.

 

[D-Mass]

I agree 100% with you, but since there are threads about all the other Kings players and their problems what's one more? The team is so bad right now no one should be exempt from some scrutiny... besides Bonzi of course.

I hear ya...it's just that right now no matter what the title of the thread is, it always ends up in the same discussion as all of the other threads. I just hope Petrie does something soon so that we have a little more excitement around here.

 

[ONEZERO]

Earl waston.

That's twice in 2 posts you've spelled it like that haha......

Reef is just an effeciant player... Not gonna be a game changer or anything... He could be an outstanding complement player to a scoring guard that's gonna demand a double team al a paul pierce... That's when his skilla will really come in to use... Pierce double teams will lead to wide open shots all day for reef and since pierce drives in a lot he could find reef open close to the rim very often if reef will cheat in a little when pierce is driving in...

 

[pedro]

I didn't know that someone had to be a "banger" to be considered non-soft.


it's a good prerequisite. webber was prbably more of a bruiser than a banger. polard was a banger. webber did bang quite a lot on the inside paint. he'd get in their and grab boards and use his body against people. he had decent hops too, before he f'd up his knee.

 

[nbrans]

A non-rebounding non-shotblocking power forward? Garbage if it were not for the excellent post game. He defends like Peja, who he resembles in a lot of ways -- "pretty" offensive game gets people over-excited, plays solid positional defense on his man, gets terminally overcredited for it by Kings fans, does not effectively help, does not stop penetration, does not take care of the defensive glass. Puts TREMENDOUS pressure on the rest of his teammates to cover up for the things he does not do, and is supposed to do as a PF. And of course we have a team fundamentally not constructed to cover up yet another softie's reboudning or help defense problems, since everybody else shares them.

I agree with you on the rebounding, I disagree on the defense. You don't have to be a shotblocker to stop penetration. Particularly on the peremeter, teams can't really run the pick and roll effectively with SAR's man becuase he does a great job of preventing the point guard from penetrating or getting a shot off, then stays in the way long enough to prevent a pass to his man while he gets back. That's good, solid, rotating team defense. He's not going to be an outstanding shotblocker and he's not going to intimidate people away from getting layups, but it's outlandish to say that puts "TREMENDOUS" pressure on the rest of the team to cover up his defensive deficiencies. Rebounding, yes, there's pressure there. But on defense he's one of the bright spots, and he's been doing more than his fair share to shore up Bibby's woeful defense.

 

[pedro]

We disagree about a lot of stuff... I dunno what you are watching but guys are going right by Bibby, then Brad, then Reef on their way to a layup on a regular basis... still... like I said he's hardly the biggest culprit on defense, Bibby, Brad being the biggest, Pejas help defense also sucking on a major level, but Reef is hardly a good defender either, the Kings are just as soft inside as they have ever been and his presence has not changed that in any way. He's a tweener, and he always will be. I will agree that he has gotten better, and the more he learns about this team the better he will get, he is a smart player and a good player but that will only get him so far, defensively it's just a bad frontcourt when he's paired with Brad, like I said especially since he can't board to save his life. Even when we manage stop someone, we can't collect the rebound and he is a part of that.

I agree, getting by your center is one thing but if a supposedly faster position, the pf, can't get into position and prevent layups. we're doomed.

we already know brad isn't a great defender. petrie should have thought about that before he picked shareef. i would have rather had a pure 6'10-6'11 defending pf than another fricking scorer on the team. if petrie had used his head for 10 seconds he could have grabbed some scorers for the 2nd string. now we're stuck with no defenders except bozni, in the starting lineup and no bench scoring or quality play from the bench whatsoever. way to go petrie. brilliant move.

 

[Zyphen]

SAR can't rebound and doesn't have much of a jumpshot. His game doesn't fit our system and also further emphasizes our weaknesses. He's not a good help defender. Comparing him with Brad is like comparing a shack to a hole in the wall.

That being said, he's a better value than everyone on our team but Bonzi. I would personally prefer someone more thug-like but that's just a matter of taste.

If we keep Reef, I would prefer to trade Peja and Brad for a stud SF and a shot-blocking/boarding center. Of course it's harder to find a quality center than a quality PF. Name the centers that are better than Brad and I bet you I can name 3 PFs for each that are better than Reef. Reef also has a more attractive contract.

 

[KP]

Comparing him with Brad is like comparing a shack to a hole in the wall.

Now that^, was a good one.

 

[pedro]

reefs just straight up too soft and short to work in the system at pf. if he ever learned to play d on workd on the helpside, he'd be okay. what we need are good backups until we can grab a real pf, next year.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

The thing I like about Shareef is that he is earning his salary. If we upgraded across the board and he was a backup he'd still be earning his salary. In a league in which the roster is almost completely geared around the salary cap and luxury tax, this is huge. There aren't many ways to trade him and get equal value without putting together a package deal and if we're going to do a package deal it makes more sense to package other players and find some that better compliment Shareef like a 2-way SF and a C that actually plays the position or a true POWER-forward and legitimate C and let him play the 3 spot for a while.

 

[pedro]

if he were a backup pf, it would be ideal if we had a better pf. for now he will be pf. we have to deal with this for now until they package him

 

[Zyphen]

It's precisely because he's so well-priced that trading him becomes so much easier and better for us. Are the Celtics going to take Corliss and Peja for Pierce? Yeah, right. They'd laugh in our faces. But Reef and Peja for Pierce has a real shot. Plus, we can probably leverage for LaFrentz or Ricky Davis in the same deal while plugging some of our crap. We have a shot at a stud in a package deal and even dumping some of our bench.

Reef is no good at SF. I don't know where the notion came from that he can play SF because he can't. He only played the position because it was either that or come off the bench. Blazers didn't have a better alternative. He'd have trouble with his man and he can't stretch defenses with his crappy jumpshot like most SFs can. Maybe if the PF was someone like Lamar Odom, it could work... but then why not just play Lamar at SF?

 

[kingsfan916]

Who had the unreal expectations of him being the next Webber?????

As stated by nbrans, nobody in the Kings ever said "Here's the next Webber to be the new team go-to guy". If you had these expectations, they were your own doing.

I like what he's brought so far, and I hope he continues to improve.

It's not like he said "This is my team." or anything like that....

He did say he wanted to win
























which we are not WIN COME ON!

 

[nbrans]

Reef is no good at SF. I don't know where the notion came from that he can play SF because he can't. He only played the position because it was either that or come off the bench. Blazers didn't have a better alternative. He'd have trouble with his man and he can't stretch defenses with his crappy jumpshot like most SFs can. Maybe if the PF was someone like Lamar Odom, it could work... but then why not just play Lamar at SF?

As far as I know it's just you and me on this one, Zyphen. Everyone else around here is not only convinced that Reef can play SF, they're convinced that it's his actual position.

 

[SacDoug]

Shareef is now "garbage"? Of all the things wrong with this team Shareef is the least of them. Shareef is actually one of the few bright spots on the team.

Shareef could have gotten a lot more money than the mid-level exception. Shareef wanted to win so he came to the Kings and in the process is doing the Kings a big favor. Do you think that just because you want a superstar one will just magically apear on the roster? They cost $$$ which the Kings don't have.

Be glad that he is here. Otherwise, we would have Kenny Thomas starting. You would then subtract 4 pts from each game, in which case the team would be 7-18.

 

[Kings241]

I don't see why everybody has fallen in love with shareef. He's just some new guy who puts up 16 and 6 that sucks on defense if he's not playing KG. What is so special about him??? His contract?

I dont see why the Kings even signed Brad Miller. He's just a guy that puts up 14 and 7 that makes every center in the NBA look like Shaq. So what if his passing and shooting is great... Don't they have a position called a PG for that.

 

[playmaker0017]

Bonzi's been solid on d all season but shareef has definitly not been solid all season.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the stats say otherwise. Bonzi has not been that stellar on defense - in fact, I'd say he's been subpar.

His man is getting by him at will and this is causing problems down low.

Reef is the only one on the team holding his man according to 82games.com.

I still don't think Reef is a great defender by any stretch, but you've been a one-man wrecking crew against Reef ... and it just isn't warranted when you look at the statistics.

The only negatives to Reef right now:

(1) He isn't a leader or emotionally charged
(2) He isn't rebounding up to his level, much less where we need him to be
(3) He isn't imposing on defense. That's not to say he isn't playing well, it is to say that he just doesn't scare people driving the lane.

 

[CreeksideBaller]

I dont see why the Kings even signed Brad Miller. He's just a guy that puts up 14 and 7 that makes every center in the NBA look like Shaq. So what if his passing and shooting is great... Don't they have a position called a PG for that.

amen

 

[BMiller52]

Shareef is now "garbage"? Of all the things wrong with this team Shareef is the least of them. Shareef is actually one of the few bright spots on the team.

Shareef could have gotten a lot more money than the mid-level exception. Shareef wanted to win so he came to the Kings and in the process is doing the Kings a big favor. Do you think that just because you want a superstar one will just magically apear on the roster? They cost $$$ which the Kings don't have.

Be glad that he is here. Otherwise, we would have Kenny Thomas starting. You would then subtract 4 pts from each game, in which case the team would be 7-18.

Kenny is a better rebounder than reef, which is what we need.

Also like to point out that last year with kenny starting we were 15-11...

 

[playmaker0017]

And KP, I disagree that Shareef's not a good rotator on defense. He's great on rotating on pick and rolls to stop penetration and is getting better about watching out for Bibby's guy penetrating into the lane -- he gets lots of practice on that one. A lot of the layups come on Brad Miller's side of the defense.

I believe KP's right on this one.

Reef's defensive weakness is rotation. He's actually an above average man-on defender ... but he isn't great at rotating.

He makes the first switch fine, but quite often he shows too hard or doesn't switch off. Of course, this could be the type of defense we run ... as ALL of our players do it.

 

[BMiller52]

I dont see why the Kings even signed Brad Miller. He's just a guy that puts up 14 and 7 that makes every center in the NBA look like Shaq. So what if his passing and shooting is great... Don't they have a position called a PG for that.

Whatever man, more RPG than reef. Putting up 6 APG, on a good %, opening up the floor, yeah guess brad is just useless trash huh? Whatever.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

It's precisely because he's so well-priced that trading him becomes so much easier and better for us. Are the Celtics going to take Corliss and Peja for Pierce? Yeah, right. They'd laugh in our faces. But Reef and Peja for Pierce has a real shot. Plus, we can probably leverage for LaFrentz or Ricky Davis in the same deal while plugging some of our crap. We have a shot at a stud in a package deal and even dumping some of our bench.

I lived in Boston for years and still follow the Celtics semi-regularly. I don't want any of these guys on my team! Leverage for LaFrentz????? Are you kidding me? Ricky Davis is a me-first guy, something we don't need. I used to love Pierce, but he's another guy that should be great but never will be.

 

[Zyphen]

Shareef is now "garbage"? Of all the things wrong with this team Shareef is the least of them. Shareef is actually one of the few bright spots on the team.

Shareef could have gotten a lot more money than the mid-level exception. Shareef wanted to win so he came to the Kings and in the process is doing the Kings a big favor. Do you think that just because you want a superstar one will just magically apear on the roster? They cost $$$ which the Kings don't have.

Be glad that he is here. Otherwise, we would have Kenny Thomas starting. You would then subtract 4 pts from each game, in which case the team would be 7-18.

Actually we were an even .500 with KT starting. He doesn't pout when he's a starter. We lose pts but gain in boards. Of course our bench was somewhat better but the point is, we wouldn't be losing that much at PF.

Reef > KT but KT covers up for our weaknesses better and therefore, decreases the margin between them.