The Kings, History, and expectations:

[bajaden]

I've been thinking a lot about how the team is percieved, and what the expectations are, and how that affects the attitude thats reflected on this fourm. An attitude that I sometimes have trouble digesting. But fear not, this isn't going to be a lecture about behavior. Its going to be, hopefully short trip, with important highlights of the Kings history, and how we got to where we are with our expectations. And I might add, that this reflection gave me a better understanding of where some of you are coming from.

The Kings arrived in sacramento for the 1985/86 season. They had their first draft in sacramento history, taking Joe Kleine. They felt they needed a future center to replace Tank Thompson. Unfortunately that draft was the first hint of things to come. We just didn't know it yet. The Kings could have drafted, Chris Mullin, Detlef Schrempf, Charles Oakley, or Karl Malone.

The team that orginally arrived had a decent to good roster with Eddie Johnson, Reggie Theus, Mike Woodson, LaSalle Thompson, Larry Drew, Otis Thorpe, and Mark Olberding. They finished the season with a 37 and 45 record, but made the playoffs. Little did we know at the time, that instead of building on that core, most of it would be gone by the 1987/88 season.

To briefly touch on our early draft picks, just to show the trend. The next season, the 1986/87 season, we drafted Harold Pressley. His team fresh off an NCAA championship. How could you go wrong. It was a weak draft by the time we picked (17th) but we did pass on Scott Skiles, Arvidas Sabonis, Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Nate McMillian, and Jeff Hornacek.

The following year, the 1987/88 season we drafted Kenny Smith. Seems we needed a PG. Hmmmm! I think I see 3 we passed on the previous year. But that aside, we passed on Kevin Johnson, a local boy, Reggie Miller, and Horace Grant.

But the 1989 season was still to come. That year we drafted Pervis Ellison, or as Danny Ainge called him, Out of service Pervis. He was then, and still is the only first pick in the draft we've had. He managed to play only 34 games as a rookie, and was traded in the offseason for such notables as Bob Hansen, and Eric Leckner. Both were gone in a couple of years. Players passed on were Tim Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, Vlade Divac and Glen Rice.

As bad as our drafts were, our trades were worse. In 1986, the Kings traded Larry Drew, Mike Woodson, a 1988 1st round pick, and a 1989 2nd round pick for Derek Smith, a player that was coming off knee surgery, and who had only played in around 24 games for the Clippers the prior year. In 2 seasons with the Kings, Smith played in a total of 52 games, and was waived in the offseason of his second year. The 1st round pick we gave up turned into Hersey Hawkins.

Smith came with a big salary, that led to the Kings cutting salary by first trading the sharpshooting Eddie Johnson for a bag of chips, and then trading the then 25 year old 6'11" PF Otis Thorpe to the Houston Rockets for Jim Peterson and Rodney McCray. McCray was gone in 2 years, and Peterson was traded 1 year later,1988, for 7'4" Ralph Sampson, who was coming off surgery on both knees. Sampson played in a total of 51 games in 2 years, and was waived. Thorpe went on to play along side Hakeem Olajuwon for the next 7 years winning 2 world championships and coming in 2nd twice. That team also had ex-King Kenny Smith on it.

After reaching the playoffs their first year here in 1985, it was all downhill from there.

1986: 29 wins-53 losses
1987: 24 wins-58 losses
1988: 27 wins-55 losses
1989: 23 wins-59 losses
1990: 25 wins-57 losses
1991: 29 wins-53 losses
1992: 25 wins-57 losses
1993: 28 wins-54 losses

Pretty miserable right. Plenty to be fed up with. During that span, ARCO arena was sold out for just about every game. Why you say? How could you possibly support a team that bad for so long? Because our expectations wern't as high. We were just happy to have big time sports here. We were getting to see the Bird's and Magic's of the world up close and personal. And at the time, that was enough. It wasn't that we didn't hope for more. Its just that we were realistic. We had an owner that brought the team here, and basicly shot his whole wad buying the team and building ARCO. So yes we had hope for a miracle, but we knew the reality of the situation. To us, a bad team is far better than no team.

Then Thomas bought the team and he hired Petrie. And this is for those of you, that don't understand those of us, that attached our star to him up to now. He arrived and in his first draft he drafted Brian Grant, Michael (the animal) Smith, and Larry Funderburke. And we made the playoffs for the first time since our first year here with a 39 and 43 record. The following year he drafted Corliss Williamson and we made the playoffs again with the same record. The next year he drafted Peja and was booed when he made the announcement. Of course Peja didn't show up on the scene until 2 years later, when he drafted J. Will, traded for Chris Webber, and signed Vlade Divac.

Now thats as far as I'm going to go with the history lesson. Most of you know the rest. What happened, was that suddenly we were playing with the big boys and beating them. Suddenly the Kings were on national television and on the cover of Sports Illustrated. We were drinking the expensive wine. And of course attracting fans that hadn't paid much attention up to then. I was a season ticket holder, and I knew everyone in my section from years of sitting with them. But tickets started going up with the demand, and the people around me starting changing.

They were fans, but they were a different kind of fan. They had much higher expectations. In some ways, I felt a little cheated. I had been there through thick and thin. I had suffered through all the bad drafts and trades, and now these guys were coming in and enjoying the results, without going through the pain. Of course it wasn't their fault, and I don't blame them. As the add on TV says, the escalator is easier than the stairs.

In short, what we have on this fourm is a mix of both parties. And both sides have a different prespective and yes, perhaps the same expectations, but different abilities to be patient. So I'll try and see the other side, if the other side will also try and see mine. I know we live in an instant gratification world. But sometimes, if you look back through history, you'll find out that what your enduring now, isn't really that bad by comparison. And history, if studied, helps you understand the reality of the future logicaly, instead of emotionally.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Thanks for dredging up bad memories, Baja. My family had season tix up til around 1994, so I witnessed much of the ineptitude first hand.

Thinking back, I really would have liked to have seen what kind of a player Ricky Berry would have developed into had not made the decision that he did. That kid sure could shoot and score the ball. I was at the game he, Pressley, Smith, Ainge, and Del Negro broke the single game 3pt record. It was one of few bright moments of a dismal season but provided some hope and optimism for the future. Of course that hope was crushed during the Summer when Ricky committed suicide.

That said, if Berry didn't die, the Kings may never have traded for Mitch Richmond which, of course, resulted in eventually acquiring Chris Webber. Who knows how different things might have been had those events not occurred.

 

[bajaden]

I thought I might add some notables that played for the Kings during he early years. See how many of the names you recognize.

Anthony Fredrick: 6'7" SF
Rory Sparrow: 6'2" PG
Bob Hanson: 6'6" SG
Rick Calloway: 6'6" SG
Randy Allen: 6'8" SF/PF
Brook Steppe: 6'5" SG
Othell Wilson: 6'0" PG
Mike Peplowski: 6'10" C (more famous for saving Bobby Hurleys life after his horrible accident by keeping his head out of the water)
LaBradford Smith: 6'3" SF (they made them small in those days)
Andre Spencer: 6'6" SF
Pete Chilcutt: 6'10" PF (famous for being Gary St. Jean's whipping boy, and marrying one of the Kings dancers)
Marty Conlon: 6'10" C ( he had the weirdest looking shot I ever saw, and he made it)
Vincent Askew: 6'6" SG
Steve Colter: 6'3" SG/PG

Believe me, I could go on. I thought at times they were getting players from the local gyms. There were players that sat on the Kings bench that I know couldn't have made any other roster in the NBA. We had the Tisdale's and the Spud Webb's as well. But the supporting cast was usually terrible. And when we did get a good player, he either blew out his knee like Lionel Simmons, or suffered a worse tragedy like Ricky Berry and Bobby Hurley. And you wonder where the idea of an indian burial ground came from. But strangely enough, I enjoyed all of it. The good and the bad... We had a bad team, but it was our team.

 

[bajaden]

Thanks for dredging up bad memories, Baja. My family had season tix up til around 1994, so I witnessed much of the ineptitude first hand.

Thinking back, I really would have liked to have seen what kind of a player Ricky Berry would have developed into had not made the decision that he did. That kid sure could shoot and score the ball. I was at the game he, Pressley, Smith, Ainge, and Del Negro broke the single game 3pt record. It was one of few bright moments of a dismal season but provided some hope and optimism for the future. Of course that hope was crushed during the Summer when Ricky committed suicide.

That said, if Berry didn't die, the Kings may never have traded for Mitch Richmond which, of course, resulted in eventually acquiring Chris Webber. Who knows how different things might have been had those events not occurred.

Yep, for every action, there's a reaction. You never know where life is going to take you next. I also was at that game. It was an exciting night indeed. It was a shame about Berry. We only saw him play that one year, but I always pictured him as a Reggie Miller type of player the way he could come off screens and and hit shots. Unfortunately we'll never know.

 

[Prince_XY]

It is okay to be patient, but not as a fan. Fans are like consumers of products or services. You keep buying the same bad product without complaining and the manufacturers will never think of improving that product.

"Sold-out" even when the team was that bad?

I think the reason why the Kings is that bad for several years now is because the fans just swallow whatever kind of a team the Maloofs and Petrie are presenting them. The Maloofs/Petrie know the history and fully know people in Sacramento are so patient they can mess-up and they would still sell. Hopefully, the Maloofs/Petrie can read the posts of the few people who had the courage to criticize the bad moves. Maybe it will make them work harder in improving this team.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I thought I might add some notables that played for the Kings during he early years. See how many of the names you recognize.

Anthony Fredrick: 6'7" SF
Rory Sparrow: 6'2" PG
Bob Hanson: 6'6" SG
Rick Calloway: 6'6" SG
Randy Allen: 6'8" SF/PF
Brook Steppe: 6'5" SG
Othell Wilson: 6'0" PG
Mike Peplowski: 6'10" C (more famous for saving Bobby Hurleys life after his horrible accident by keeping his head out of the water)
LaBradford Smith: 6'3" SF (they made them small in those days)
Andre Spencer: 6'6" SF
Pete Chilcutt: 6'10" PF (famous for being Gary St. Jean's whipping boy, and marrying one of the Kings dancers)
Marty Conlon: 6'10" C ( he had the weirdest looking shot I ever saw, and he made it)
Vincent Askew: 6'6" SG
Steve Colter: 6'3" SG/PG
.

I remember all of those players except for Frederick and Spencer. Neither ring a bell for some reason.

I remember when Othel Wilson was signed out of the CBA. Gary Gerould used to rave about his quick burst. Goes to show how starved for talent they were back then.

 

[Glenn]

It is okay to be patient, but not as a fan. Fans are like consumers of products or services. You keep buying the same bad product without complaining and the manufacturers will never think of improving that product.

"Sold-out" even when the team was that bad?

I think the reason why the Kings is that bad for several years now is because the fans just swallow whatever kind of a team the Maloofs and Petrie are presenting them. The Maloofs/Petrie know the history and fully know people in Sacramento are so patient they can mess-up and they would still sell. Hopefully, the Maloofs/Petrie can read the posts of the few people who had the courage to criticize the bad moves. Maybe it will make them work harder in improving this team.

That makes some sense but I don't agree. The sell out streak ended very quickly when the team began to lose again. The people had a taste of what good basketball was like and the excitement of post season and quit coming when the team was offering so little. I also think though that a sniff of the playoffs will bring the people back. It's not like we aren't basketball fans. It's just that we require good basketball now.

 

[Section 101]

I thought I might add some notables that played for the Kings during he early years. See how many of the names you recognize.

Anthony Fredrick: 6'7" SF
Rory Sparrow: 6'2" PG
Bob Hanson: 6'6" SG
Rick Calloway: 6'6" SG
Randy Allen: 6'8" SF/PF
Brook Steppe: 6'5" SG
Othell Wilson: 6'0" PG
Mike Peplowski: 6'10" C (more famous for saving Bobby Hurleys life after his horrible accident by keeping his head out of the water)
LaBradford Smith: 6'3" SF (they made them small in those days)
Andre Spencer: 6'6" SF
Pete Chilcutt: 6'10" PF (famous for being Gary St. Jean's whipping boy, and marrying one of the Kings dancers)
Marty Conlon: 6'10" C ( he had the weirdest looking shot I ever saw, and he made it)
Vincent Askew: 6'6" SG
Steve Colter: 6'3" SG/PG

Believe me, I could go on. I thought at times they were getting players from the local gyms. There were players that sat on the Kings bench that I know couldn't have made any other roster in the NBA. We had the Tisdale's and the Spud Webb's as well. But the supporting cast was usually terrible. And when we did get a good player, he either blew out his knee like Lionel Simmons, or suffered a worse tragedy like Ricky Berry and Bobby Hurley. And you wonder where the idea of an indian burial ground came from. But strangely enough, I enjoyed all of it. The good and the bad... We had a bad team, but it was our team.

Leon Wood !

 

[bajaden]

Leon Wood !

Hey, I left a lot out. I didn't want to bore everyone. Old Leon wasn't that bad a player. He might be a better ref though.

 

[pshn80]

The eight seasons you list with 50 plus losses, like all the first 24 seasons, I had and used two seats for half of those games. I enjoyed the ride and still do. Fortunately I have never gotten into trying tho manage the team. I have no interest in scouting.

I let Petrie run the team while
I sit back and enjoy the game. So we don't win enough, so what's new.

 

[bajaden]

It is okay to be patient, but not as a fan. Fans are like consumers of products or services. You keep buying the same bad product without complaining and the manufacturers will never think of improving that product.

"Sold-out" even when the team was that bad?

I think the reason why the Kings is that bad for several years now is because the fans just swallow whatever kind of a team the Maloofs and Petrie are presenting them. The Maloofs/Petrie know the history and fully know people in Sacramento are so patient they can mess-up and they would still sell. Hopefully, the Maloofs/Petrie can read the posts of the few people who had the courage to criticize the bad moves. Maybe it will make them work harder in improving this team.

The point of my post wasn't about the Kings or Petrie persay, but about the difference in perception and therefore the expectations, between the fans then and now. Your reply actually shows the difference. You have little patience, and you have no desire to apply understanding to the current circumstances. You have immediate and high expectations, and you won't settle for anything else. Now that might not be precisely accurate, but thats the general feeling I get from you.

Thats not a criticism, its just how different we are. And thats all I was trying to point out. I wanted you, and fans like you to see why I think the way I do. But to respond to the other things you said. I seriously doubt that the Kings are bad because of the fans one way or the other. The Maloofs are the giant mystery box. No one knows for sure what they want to do, or when they're telling the truth, or if one is telling his version of the truth and another is just flat out lying to further an agenda. I've spoken to Gavin, and I have no doubt that he's a huge fan of the team and wants it to win. But who holds the power in the family? Jackass George? No one seems to know for sure, except the family themselves.

Has the Petrie that built this team lost all ability to judge talent? I'm 71 years old, and I can still judge talent, and I'm sure he has more information and resources than I could dream of. So if we assume that he's still capable, and he's not doing the job, what other possible reason could there be? Well, having lived through the early days of the Kings, when we had a brave, but poor owner, I know what a GM can do with limited money to work with. And in this case, it was a terrible GM (Axelson) to boot. He can't do much more than put on bandaids.

Now you can choose to shake your fist at the sky after the tornado has gone through, but the damage is still done. I choose to look around for what I can salvage, and hope for a quick rebuild with new money. Until such time, not much will change. Oh we can scream bloody murder, or worse yet, boycott the team to show our displeasure. Unfortunately that would play right into their hands. Or at least George's hands.

In the end, I keep reminding myself, that this isn't a life or death situation. This is a game were talking about, and were susposed to be enjoying it. I get the feeling at times, some aren't. Hell, maybe if I were sitting in $150 dollar seats downstairs center, and the team was this bad, I'd be upset too. But I'm not. At least not anymore. They were around $47.00 back then, if memory serves. Just remember, I'm 71 years old, and your chances of seeing this team win a championship are much better than mine. Hell, I'm the one that should be impatient.

 

[rhythmless]

Just remember, I'm 71 years old, and your chances of seeing this team win a championship are much better than mine. Hell, I'm the one that should be impatient.

This made me sad and laugh at the same time.

I understand that an older fan has seen more lean years than most here. To be flippant, your point could come across as that we should be ok with being perennial losers, because that's what we've usually been and that's what we are.

As long as the moves made are prudent and made in the name of basketball (not marketing, for instance), I am ok with being patient and watching the losses pile. It's not just that we are losing, it's that we're shortchanging our players and fans for money related reasons.

For instance, at one point we were paying Theus AND Musselman millions to watch Kenny Natt coach the team. It seems that if they had put the money upfront to get a "real" coach, they would have spent just the same amount and we would not be wasting our young kids' formative years on coaching changes. Basically, I'm fed up with penny pinching when you should be paying for quality, and splurging on mediocrity when you should be saving for the big ticket item.

I've been a part of the losing years, when we were buzzing to get into the 8th seed on the back of Mitch. You're right; expectations are different. But, shouldn't they be? Flower's for Algernon, good sir. My patience hinges on making the right play, then letting the chips fall where they may. When you shoot yourself in the foot (for insurance money, knowing the Maloofs) before even getting on the court, I do lose patience. That's where we seem to differ. But I do appreciate your posts here.

 

[IfAt1st]

bajaden -
I respect your attention to detail, and you dredging up the history - it was as well-written as some of the retrospective articles I've read about other teams (Clippers, etc).

What I don't respect, or appreciate, is your insinuation that any true Kings fan would be OK with the mediocrity we've been forced to live through for 7 years now.

I am 42, and lived through the Kings coming here, and the entire fanbase being OK with losing.
We supported the Kings through thick and thin, simply because we didn't know any better and (I believe) we didn't truly think we could win. It was a novelty to have professional sports here.

Then, the amazing happened. We all know that ride.

All of a sudden (you're completely right), a totally different kind of fan was showing up at the games. Not the die-hard local supportive fan, but the excited, passionate (about winning) fan that helped run the enthusiasm through the roof (which caught the diehards up in the thrill, too).

But you are being naive if you think it can magically go back to what it was.
Time, and the fanbase, for better or worse, have changed, like Pandora's Box.
It's not OK to suck anymore.
It's not OK to deliberately put a sub-standard product out on the floor. (And yes, putting unqualified coaches to run the whole floor show does qualify as deliberate)
We know it's about entertainment now - the scales fell off and we realized (after getting the rightful championship stolen from us in 2002 by the front-running, status-quo NBA) that not matter how good the Kings get, they will not get a championship.

And not being competitive for 7 years, is not entertaining.
Being repeatedly embarrased by visiting rivals, in our own arena, to the cheers and jeers of the opposing fans filling up our seats, is completely demoralizing to a fanbase.

What you haven't addressed is how the Kings players have changed.
The Kings got support when the team sucked, but the players played hard. This town has ALWAYS loved players who played hard.
Now, it's populated by players who are perceived as not hard-working.
Let's look at the top Kings players:
1) Tyreke. There is simply no getting around that he is perceived as a selfish, lazy player who doesn't try hard enough to better his obviously-lacking game. His constant lapses on defense, and incredible selfishness on the fastbreaks cemented this perception in the fanbase.
2) DMC. Divac got a pass for being slow down the court, but for the most part, the fanbase can't stand big guys who look lazy and petulant. If he shut his mouth and spoke with his effort, the perception would change. But DMC is who he is, and there's no changing him. I like him, but even my patience with his whiny entitlement issues has limits (which are well beyond the normal fan's).
3) MT. His lack of interest in defense makes him unloved by the fanbase, despite his clutch play. Also, the Kings have so rarely been in clutch games for MT to shine, he's almost wasted on this team.
4) Salmons. 'Nuff said.
5) IT. He is loved and accepted by the fanbase. Gee, I wonder why? Is it because he's better than the others, has more talent, can become an elite NBA player, etc?
NO. The Kings fanbase traditionally likes scrappy players who try hard and make the most of their skills. This is the primary lesson to be learned at looking at the Sacramento Kings history and what players are fan favorites.

bajaden -
You can wish it was back in the late 80's again, but it will never again be like that wonderful time - an unconditional love-affair by the fans.

 

[bajaden]

bajaden -
I respect your attention to detail, and you dredging up the history - it was as well-written as some of the retrospective articles I've read about other teams (Clippers, etc).

What I don't respect, or appreciate, is your insinuation that any true Kings fan would be OK with the mediocrity we've been forced to live through for 7 years now.

I am 42, and lived through the Kings coming here, and the entire fanbase being OK with losing.
We supported the Kings through thick and thin, simply because we didn't know any better and (I believe) we didn't truly think we could win. It was a novelty to have professional sports here.

Then, the amazing happened. We all know that ride.

All of a sudden (you're completely right), a totally different kind of fan was showing up at the games. Not the die-hard local supportive fan, but the excited, passionate (about winning) fan that helped run the enthusiasm through the roof (which caught the diehards up in the thrill, too).

But you are being naive if you think it can magically go back to what it was.
Time, and the fanbase, for better or worse, have changed, like Pandora's Box.
It's not OK to suck anymore.
It's not OK to deliberately put a sub-standard product out on the floor. (And yes, putting unqualified coaches to run the whole floor show does qualify as deliberate)
We know it's about entertainment now - the scales fell off and we realized (after getting the rightful championship stolen from us in 2002 by the front-running, status-quo NBA) that not matter how good the Kings get, they will not get a championship.

And not being competitive for 7 years, is not entertaining.
Being repeatedly embarrased by visiting rivals, in our own arena, to the cheers and jeers of the opposing fans filling up our seats, is completely demoralizing to a fanbase.

What you haven't addressed is how the Kings players have changed.
The Kings got support when the team sucked, but the players played hard. This town has ALWAYS loved players who played hard.
Now, it's populated by players who are perceived as not hard-working.
Let's look at the top Kings players:
1) Tyreke. There is simply no getting around that he is perceived as a selfish, lazy player who doesn't try hard enough to better his obviously-lacking game. His constant lapses on defense, and incredible selfishness on the fastbreaks cemented this perception in the fanbase.
2) DMC. Divac got a pass for being slow down the court, but for the most part, the fanbase can't stand big guys who look lazy and petulant. If he shut his mouth and spoke with his effort, the perception would change. But DMC is who he is, and there's no changing him. I like him, but even my patience with his whiny entitlement issues has limits (which are well beyond the normal fan's).
3) MT. His lack of interest in defense makes him unloved by the fanbase, despite his clutch play. Also, the Kings have so rarely been in clutch games for MT to shine, he's almost wasted on this team.
4) Salmons. 'Nuff said.
5) IT. He is loved and accepted by the fanbase. Gee, I wonder why? Is it because he's better than the others, has more talent, can become an elite NBA player, etc?
NO. The Kings fanbase traditionally likes scrappy players who try hard and make the most of their skills. This is the primary lesson to be learned at looking at the Sacramento Kings history and what players are fan favorites.

bajaden -
You can wish it was back in the late 80's again, but it will never again be like that wonderful time - an unconditional love-affair by the fans.

I'm always amazed how people misunderstand what I'm saying no matter how hard I try to explain it. At no time, anywhere in my post, did I imply that anyone wasn't a true kings fan, regardless of their personal outlook for the team. I was going out of my way, to say this is who I'am and how I got to be who I'am as a Kings fan, but that I understand the opinion of the other side, that perhaps hasn't lived through the early years. Its a lot easier to engage in constructive conversation, when both sides understand where the other side is coming from.

At no time was I being critical of how you or anyone with the same opinion, thinks. Now let me get one thing straight. If anyone thinks I'm just OK with mediocry, you've greatly misunderstood me. I hate losing! And anyone that knows me would tell you that I'm a fierce competitor. I have expectations just like you do. I just communicate them in a different way than some do. I try to be civil, and if possible, keep a positive tone to what I write. As I said before, its not what you say at times (not meaning you), its how you say it.

I have no desire to go back to the 80's. What I desire is a competitive team right now, and I think we have the beginning of that. I'm certainly not going to go over what I think is wrong with the team again. I've posted my thoughts enough on the matter. In short, we have a team with a lot of parts that don't fit properly. Thats no secret to anyone.

But just for the excercise of it, lets review how you and I percieve the same players. The irony of it, is that you'll find that we might arrive at the same destination, but by differend roads.

Tyreke you say is percieved as lazy and selfish. That he doesn't try hard enough to better his game etc. I don't think Tyreke is lazy, and I know for a fact that he works on his game. So I don't either of those things are a problem. However, because he works on his game, doesn't always mean he worked on the right parts of his game. I also don't think Tyreke is selfish. I do think he has a problem with making the right decisions at times. I think its very difficult to play one way your whole life, arrive at sacramento, and get handed the keys to the car by Westphal for a year, and then suddenly have to totally change your game. Lets remember, players, at least good players will try and do what the coach asks of them. We know he can defend, but there's no doubt that he had some troubles in that area this year. But then he was also playing out of position for a large part of the year. In short, I think we both agree on the result, but not on how he got there.

Thornton you say shows a lack of interest on defense. I couldn't agree less. I watched him carefully this past season, and he certainly put out the effort on defense. He actually was one of the leaders in steals on the team. Its not disinterest or lack of effort, its lack of ability, and thats an entirely different thing. Now if you want to say that Thornton has blinders on at times on offense, I'll agree with that. There are times when he should give up the ball and he doesn't. He has a scorers mentality, and thats one of the reasons I would perfer him coming off the bench.

I don't understand your reference to Cousins at all. I don't get the entitlement statement. At what time did Cuz ever say anything about being entitled. He comes from a small town. He didn't go to one of those basketball highschool factorys that guys like Lebron went to. He was never pampered along the way. Yes, he was immature, and probably came from not being exposed to the other side sooner. But whether you or anyone else wants to recognize it or not, he improved last season. Both in his game, and in his temperment. Unfortunately, he had to deal with a very insecure coach in Westphal, who decided he was going to make every little incident public. And it had nothing to do with the demands put on him. There's no more demanding coach than Calapari, and Cousins had a great relationship with him.

Calapari stated several times, that Cousins is one of those guys that when you tell him what you want him to do, he needs to know why you want him to do it that way. Calapari, wisely said thats a sign of intelligence. Westphal regarded it as being challenged. Does Cuz have a long way to go to reach his potential? Yes! But he's getting there, and he has the potential to be one of, if not the best center in the NBA. It never ceases to surprise me how hard we are on our own players when the susposedly whine to the officials about a call, but we just ignore it when Howard, or Griffin, or Dirk, or any of the big stars do exactly the same thing. Yes, you can point out that Cuz got more tech's and personal fouls, but he also doesn't get the perfered treatment that some of the stars get. I'm not making excuses for him. He has to improve in that area, and I'm sure he will. The idea that you can look at a 21 year old player with the talent Cousins has, and then say, he'll never change just boggles my mind. My god, I'm nothing like is was when I was 21 years old. I doubt anyone is. We all learn and we all change. Not always for the better, but we change. I have to assume that your better at your job today than you were the day you started.

I'll finish by saying this. If Cousins becomes the best center in the NBA, he can whine all he wants as long as he's on my team. Sometimes its OK to be happy you have a player like him, instead of looking for something to find fault with.

 

[Heuge]

I'm always amazed how people misunderstand what I'm saying no matter how hard I try to explain it. At no time, anywhere in my post, did I imply that anyone wasn't a true kings fan, regardless of their personal outlook for the team. I was going out of my way, to say this is who I'am and how I got to be who I'am as a Kings fan, but that I understand the opinion of the other side, that perhaps hasn't lived through the early years. Its a lot easier to engage in constructive conversation, when both sides understand where the other side is coming from.

At no time was I being critical of how you or anyone with the same opinion, thinks. Now let me get one thing straight. If anyone thinks I'm just OK with mediocry, you've greatly misunderstood me. I hate losing! And anyone that knows me would tell you that I'm a fierce competitor. I have expectations just like you do. I just communicate them in a different way than some do. I try to be civil, and if possible, keep a positive tone to what I write. As I said before, its not what you say at times (not meaning you), its how you say it.

I have no desire to go back to the 80's. What I desire is a competitive team right now, and I think we have the beginning of that. I'm certainly not going to go over what I think is wrong with the team again. I've posted my thoughts enough on the matter. In short, we have a team with a lot of parts that don't fit properly. Thats no secret to anyone.

But just for the excercise of it, lets review how you and I percieve the same players. The irony of it, is that you'll find that we might arrive at the same destination, but by differend roads.

Tyreke you say is percieved as lazy and selfish. That he doesn't try hard enough to better his game etc. I don't think Tyreke is lazy, and I know for a fact that he works on his game. So I don't either of those things are a problem. However, because he works on his game, doesn't always mean he worked on the right parts of his game. I also don't think Tyreke is selfish. I do think he has a problem with making the right decisions at times. I think its very difficult to play one way your whole life, arrive at sacramento, and get handed the keys to the car by Westphal for a year, and then suddenly have to totally change your game. Lets remember, players, at least good players will try and do what the coach asks of them. We know he can defend, but there's no doubt that he had some troubles in that area this year. But then he was also playing out of position for a large part of the year. In short, I think we both agree on the result, but not on how he got there.

Thornton you say shows a lack of interest on defense. I couldn't agree less. I watched him carefully this past season, and he certainly put out the effort on defense. He actually was one of the leaders in steals on the team. Its not disinterest or lack of effort, its lack of ability, and thats an entirely different thing. Now if you want to say that Thornton has blinders on at times on offense, I'll agree with that. There are times when he should give up the ball and he doesn't. He has a scorers mentality, and thats one of the reasons I would perfer him coming off the bench.

I don't understand your reference to Cousins at all. I don't get the entitlement statement. At what time did Cuz ever say anything about being entitled. He comes from a small town. He didn't go to one of those basketball highschool factorys that guys like Lebron went to. He was never pampered along the way. Yes, he was immature, and probably came from not being exposed to the other side sooner. But whether you or anyone else wants to recognize it or not, he improved last season. Both in his game, and in his temperment. Unfortunately, he had to deal with a very insecure coach in Westphal, who decided he was going to make every little incident public. And it had nothing to do with the demands put on him. There's no more demanding coach than Calapari, and Cousins had a great relationship with him.

Calapari stated several times, that Cousins is one of those guys that when you tell him what you want him to do, he needs to know why you want him to do it that way. Calapari, wisely said thats a sign of intelligence. Westphal regarded it as being challenged. Does Cuz have a long way to go to reach his potential? Yes! But he's getting there, and he has the potential to be one of, if not the best center in the NBA. It never ceases to surprise me how hard we are on our own players when the susposedly whine to the officials about a call, but we just ignore it when Howard, or Griffin, or Dirk, or any of the big stars do exactly the same thing. Yes, you can point out that Cuz got more tech's and personal fouls, but he also doesn't get the perfered treatment that some of the stars get. I'm not making excuses for him. He has to improve in that area, and I'm sure he will. The idea that you can look at a 21 year old player with the talent Cousins has, and then say, he'll never change just boggles my mind. My god, I'm nothing like is was when I was 21 years old. I doubt anyone is. We all learn and we all change. Not always for the better, but we change. I have to assume that your better at your job today than you were the day you started.

I'll finish by saying this. If Cousins becomes the best center in the NBA, he can whine all he wants as long as he's on my team. Sometimes its OK to be happy you have a player like him, instead of looking for something to find fault with.

This post as well as the original thread post are 2 of the better posts I have read on here in a great while. I completely agree with what you presented and appreciate the historical context it came out of.

To add to this my perspective. I will rout just as enthusiastically for this team as I did Otis' team, Wayman's team, or Webb's team. But just as I did then, I will call it as I see it and express frustration when it warrants. Back in the happy go lucky dark years I expressed a great deal of frustration, just as I have significant frustrations now.

What I find most interesting is how the atmosphere in games have change while the quality of the product on the court as remained the same (compare say 89 to now). I think this game atmosphere aspect is where we most see your point played out.

Again, fun read. Well done.

 

[Trueblood]

Are you sure the Kings passed on KJ? I thought he went #6 to Cleveland and then we took Kenny Smith at #7. I could be wrong though. I can't believe they would've passed on a local guy.

Edit: I stand corrected

http://nbadraft.net/nba_draft_history/1989.html#1987

That's unbelievable. Not only did they pass on the local guy but he turned out to be the MUCH better player. Glad he didn't hold a grudge against the franchise or else we'd probably be on royalsfans.com right now.

 

[Trueblood]

I remember all of those players except for Frederick and Spencer. Neither ring a bell for some reason.

I remember when Othel Wilson was signed out of the CBA. Gary Gerould used to rave about his quick burst. Goes to show how starved for talent they were back then.

Anthony Frederick also played for Charlotte. He went to Pepperdine after transferring from my old JC, Santa Monica College. As far as I know, he's the only NBA player to come from SMC.

Sadly, he died a few years ago in the western section of the San Fernando Valley. He joins Tisdale, Smith and Berry as Kings who have passed away.

 

[datamanwes]

Great post Bajaden, This is one of the main reasons I still come to this site every day to read the posts. I like most fans get fed up with the team at times and pissed of with the Maloofs, I also wonder why some of us see that the team needs certain types of players and then does not get them. but I also get fed up with the ego's of some of the people who post on here who think they know more than people who make a living in the NBA. I love the Kings and reading about them on this site has been probably more fun than watching many of the games. This post was awesome and I always think your posts are educational, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

 

[kennadog]

Very nicely done, bajaden. Thank you.

 

[VF21]

In short, what we have on this fourm is a mix of both parties. And both sides have a different prespective and yes, perhaps the same expectations, but different abilities to be patient. So I'll try and see the other side, if the other side will also try and see mine. I know we live in an instant gratification world. But sometimes, if you look back through history, you'll find out that what your enduring now, isn't really that bad by comparison. And history, if studied, helps you understand the reality of the future logicaly, instead of emotionally.

Both of your posts in this thread make excellent points, but this part stood out to me most of all. Well said.

 

[King Baller]

I remember hearing about Vlade signing, Mitch swapped for CWebb, JWill drafted at 7 and word that Peja was coming to the USA (Petrie had described Peja as a poor mans Larry Bird). I knew the Kings would be much improved and told people they better keep an eye on the Kings. Some of those people just chuckled and other listened because they knew what a Hoophead I was/am

The guys the Kings have RIGHT NOW collectively are equal talent wise to that group. I'm hoping they come together and play better basketball than we saw last year.

KB

 

[PBNJ85]

I've been thinking a lot about how the team is percieved, and what the expectations are, and how that affects the attitude thats reflected on this fourm. An attitude that I sometimes have trouble digesting. But fear not, this isn't going to be a lecture about behavior. Its going to be, hopefully short trip, with important highlights of the Kings history, and how we got to where we are with our expectations. And I might add, that this reflection gave me a better understanding of where some of you are coming from.

The Kings arrived in sacramento for the 1985/86 season. They had their first draft in sacramento history, taking Joe Kleine. They felt they needed a future center to replace Tank Thompson. Unfortunately that draft was the first hint of things to come. We just didn't know it yet. The Kings could have drafted, Chris Mullin, Detlef Schrempf, Charles Oakley, or Karl Malone.

The team that orginally arrived had a decent to good roster with Eddie Johnson, Reggie Theus, Mike Woodson, LaSalle Thompson, Larry Drew, Otis Thorpe, and Mark Olberding. They finished the season with a 37 and 45 record, but made the playoffs. Little did we know at the time, that instead of building on that core, most of it would be gone by the 1987/88 season.

To briefly touch on our early draft picks, just to show the trend. The next season, the 1986/87 season, we drafted Harold Pressley. His team fresh off an NCAA championship. How could you go wrong. It was a weak draft by the time we picked (17th) but we did pass on Scott Skiles, Arvidas Sabonis, Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Nate McMillian, and Jeff Hornacek.

The following year, the 1987/88 season we drafted Kenny Smith. Seems we needed a PG. Hmmmm! I think I see 3 we passed on the previous year. But that aside, we passed on Kevin Johnson, a local boy, Reggie Miller, and Horace Grant.

But the 1989 season was still to come. That year we drafted Pervis Ellison, or as Danny Ainge called him, Out of service Pervis. He was then, and still is the only first pick in the draft we've had. He managed to play only 34 games as a rookie, and was traded in the offseason for such notables as Bob Hansen, and Eric Leckner. Both were gone in a couple of years. Players passed on were Tim Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, Vlade Divac and Glen Rice.

As bad as our drafts were, our trades were worse. In 1986, the Kings traded Larry Drew, Mike Woodson, a 1988 1st round pick, and a 1989 2nd round pick for Derek Smith, a player that was coming off knee surgery, and who had only played in around 24 games for the Clippers the prior year. In 2 seasons with the Kings, Smith played in a total of 52 games, and was waived in the offseason of his second year. The 1st round pick we gave up turned into Hersey Hawkins.

Smith came with a big salary, that led to the Kings cutting salary by first trading the sharpshooting Eddie Johnson for a bag of chips, and then trading the then 25 year old 6'11" PF Otis Thorpe to the Houston Rockets for Jim Peterson and Rodney McCray. McCray was gone in 2 years, and Peterson was traded 1 year later,1988, for 7'4" Ralph Sampson, who was coming off surgery on both knees. Sampson played in a total of 51 games in 2 years, and was waived. Thorpe went on to play along side Hakeem Olajuwon for the next 7 years winning 2 world championships and coming in 2nd twice. That team also had ex-King Kenny Smith on it.

After reaching the playoffs their first year here in 1985, it was all downhill from there.

1986: 29 wins-53 losses
1987: 24 wins-58 losses
1988: 27 wins-55 losses
1989: 23 wins-59 losses
1990: 25 wins-57 losses
1991: 29 wins-53 losses
1992: 25 wins-57 losses
1993: 28 wins-54 losses

Pretty miserable right. Plenty to be fed up with. During that span, ARCO arena was sold out for just about every game. Why you say? How could you possibly support a team that bad for so long? Because our expectations wern't as high. We were just happy to have big time sports here. We were getting to see the Bird's and Magic's of the world up close and personal. And at the time, that was enough. It wasn't that we didn't hope for more. Its just that we were realistic. We had an owner that brought the team here, and basicly shot his whole wad buying the team and building ARCO. So yes we had hope for a miracle, but we knew the reality of the situation. To us, a bad team is far better than no team.

Then Thomas bought the team and he hired Petrie. And this is for those of you, that don't understand those of us, that attached our star to him up to now. He arrived and in his first draft he drafted Brian Grant, Michael (the animal) Smith, and Larry Funderburke. And we made the playoffs for the first time since our first year here with a 39 and 43 record. The following year he drafted Corliss Williamson and we made the playoffs again with the same record. The next year he drafted Peja and was booed when he made the announcement. Of course Peja didn't show up on the scene until 2 years later, when he drafted J. Will, traded for Chris Webber, and signed Vlade Divac.

Now thats as far as I'm going to go with the history lesson. Most of you know the rest. What happened, was that suddenly we were playing with the big boys and beating them. Suddenly the Kings were on national television and on the cover of Sports Illustrated. We were drinking the expensive wine. And of course attracting fans that hadn't paid much attention up to then. I was a season ticket holder, and I knew everyone in my section from years of sitting with them. But tickets started going up with the demand, and the people around me starting changing.

They were fans, but they were a different kind of fan. They had much higher expectations. In some ways, I felt a little cheated. I had been there through thick and thin. I had suffered through all the bad drafts and trades, and now these guys were coming in and enjoying the results, without going through the pain. Of course it wasn't their fault, and I don't blame them. As the add on TV says, the escalator is easier than the stairs.

In short, what we have on this fourm is a mix of both parties. And both sides have a different prespective and yes, perhaps the same expectations, but different abilities to be patient. So I'll try and see the other side, if the other side will also try and see mine. I know we live in an instant gratification world. But sometimes, if you look back through history, you'll find out that what your enduring now, isn't really that bad by comparison. And history, if studied, helps you understand the reality of the future logicaly, instead of emotionally.

Great post! I moved to Sac then too. My then girlfriend worked at Country Club Mall and remember Joe Klein coming in and not having ID to write a check and during the conversation said "I work for the Kings".

Thats/was how I felt about Kings fans after Jason/Cweb/Vlade, It seemed everyone was a Kings fan then even folks who could only name those three on the team at the time.

Guess it was the same for Ice-T after Coco got those.. uh, implants.