The Kings Have to Run The Ball

Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Isn't that what young teams do? Fast break at every possible opportunity because they don't have the refinement in their set-up offense? Take advantage of their young legs?

The Kings continually walk the ball up the floor. The wings don't run, they lope. Why should they run if they never receive the ball running up the floor? All the guards hog the ball and don't pass upcourt to the wings. When was the last good outlet pass you've seen from a big man to the front court? Both Cousins and Dalembert can do it, so why doesn't it happen? They Kings have a good rebounding team and an adequate defensive team, both prerequisites to running the ball. Let's run the ball.

Tyreke says he wants to be more aggressive and take the game over to win games. That's a recipe for even more of a disaster than what we've seen if it's in a half-court offense. The only chance he has right now to take a game over is in a running offense. Then they can't "load up" on him. But it's got to include everyone, not just him going one against three.

Don't get me wrong. Running the ball wouldn't be a panacea to a winning season. No doubt you would see more turnovers. Also, teams are going to run right back at them when they miss. However, it can get everyone into attack mode, and have everyone touch the ball. It would take more advantage of older teams and teams that are tired. I think it could get the Kings more wins this season. And, it would be more fun, both for the players and the fans.
 
I actually agree with this with this one note: the greatest teams normally play halfcourt, or at the very least excel at it. Tyreke's preference for that style of ball and ability to beat multiple defenders in a halfcourt set is a great sign for the future, always has been. So is DeMarcus's post game. People complaining about that either haven't thought it through, or just prefer style over substance, flash over playoff style basketball. These are the tools that may one day make this team elite. The great teams have them, the middling ones do not. If our kids were all just soft little ****s who needed to run up and down the court padding their stats as the only way they could be effective, there would be no future.

But right now none of that is ready and we aren't within shouting distance of great. Sometimes with young teams you just have to take the shackles off and let them flash their talent and learn by making mistakes. You tame them after they have their legs under them, you don't just go hop on the back of a newborn colt. And in particular with our rebounding ability, there is just no reason for us not to be out and running more. Since we can't execute our halfcourt offense, attacking before other teams get set seems like the only way. I felt like Westphal made a ritical mistake very early in camp and just had these young guys on too tight a leash from the beginning. And now it appears that leash has choked much of the life out of them. You just have to let go at some point and trust them to at least fight. this way is leading inevitably to Westphal's demise, so I can't see what the downside is for him.
 
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Evans is disaster! shooting 25% of the group doesn't leave much to any other player, leaving all others in frustrations. This group has no excersizes in offence. the ball is thrown after 0-2 passes the most, so there's no group, only individuals who r trying to desperately improve their personal statistics. From my point of view westpauhl is sparable, and if you ask me? Evans too!!!
 
Bricklayer said:
I actually agree with this with this one note: the greatest teams normally play halfcourt, or at the very least excel at it. Tyreke's preference for that style of ball and ability to beat multiple defenders in a halfcourt set is a great sign for the future, always has been. So is DeMarcus's post game. People complaining about that either haven't thought it through, or just prefer style over substance, flash over playoff style basketball. These are the tools that may one day make this team elite. The great teams have them, the middling ones do not. If our kids were all just soft little ****s who needed to run up and down the court padding their stats as the only way they could be effective, there would be no future.

But right now none of that is ready and we aren't within shouting distance of great. Sometimes with young teams you just have to take the shackles off and let them flash their talent and learn by making mistakes. You tame them after they have their legs under them, you don't just go hop on the back of a newborn colt. And in particular with our rebounding ability, there is just no reason for us not to be out and running more. Since we can't execute our halfcourt offense, attacking before other teams get set seems like the only way. I felt like Westphal made a ritical mistake very early in camp and just had these young guys on too tight a leash from the beginning. And now it appears that leash has choked much of the life out of them. You just have to let go at some point and trust them to at least fight. this way is leading inevitably to Westphal's demise, so I can't see what the downside is for him.
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Exactly. Down the line the physicallity of Tyreke and Cousins in a half court offense is going to greatly benefit the Kings, especially in the playoffs. But that's in the future. Not today. Also, it's not all or nothing. They can't run on every possession. But the point is that they should run whenever possible. Lastly, Walton mention something last night that rings true - the Kings are thinking too much. Not reacting. The way to get out of overthinking is to run the ball.
 
We are already playing a 10 or 11 man rotation we should be pushing ever bit of energy from all 11 guys that touch the ball. Up the intensity and get high energy. Just make them continue to play hard defensively also and we can make some progress this year. Then when we have someone who can draw up a play we can run in the 1/2 court in the future we can see about grinding it out.

The problem with running is players use their energy on the offensive end only if we play more guys a more even number of minutes and push both sides of the ball we can wear other teams down easily. I have been behind this for a while now.
 
I would love if this team played a faster pace. Problem I see with that is though we don't have good enough shooters and athletic players to run up and down the court. Garcia is our best shooter, but he's been struggling. Donte is not that good from 3 point range, Casspi has his one game in 10 games, if even. Beno is our second best 3 point shooter probably. I don't think we have the personnel to run up and down for 48 minutes or less. Cousins would probably throw up after a couple of possessions, he's not that type of player to run up and down. Another thing, the PG is usually the one who pushes the ball and other players follow suit. But, since Tyreke gently walks up the court every possession, I don't see how it's going to happen unless you can actually get through him. Quite frankly, you tell him something, it seems to go out the other ear.
 
In order to get out in transition, the team must get stops. That isn't something they are doing at the moment.
 
kingsboi said:
I would love if this team played a faster pace. Problem I see with that is though we don't have good enough shooters and athletic players to run up and down the court. Garcia is our best shooter, but he's been struggling. Donte is not that good from 3 point range, Casspi has his one game in 10 games, if even. Beno is our second best 3 point shooter probably. I don't think we have the personnel to run up and down for 48 minutes or less. Cousins would probably throw up after a couple of possessions, he's not that type of player to run up and down. Another thing, the PG is usually the one who pushes the ball and other players follow suit. But, since Tyreke gently walks up the court every possession, I don't see how it's going to happen unless you can actually get through him. Quite frankly, you tell him something, it seems to go out the other ear.
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Playing at a faster pace could get Casspi out of his funk. He's a fast player. He can get up the court and get open looks. He's a guy who is thinking too much out there. If he just runs and shoots when he's open (if the guards would give up the ball), then those shots could start dropping.

Garcia is the same as Casspi - he needs to run. Get him in open space and let it fly. Those shots will start dropping.

Thompson is also a guy who could benefit. The strongest thing he has going for him on offense is he's pretty fast and he can hit an open face-up 18 footer. He could be a nice trailer on a fast break. Or, with his hustle, he can get some rebs on missed shots. Also, because he gets rebounds, he key to starting the break.

Cousins would benefit greatly just because he'd get into shape faster. Maybe in a month we'd see a more svelt Cousins after he did push himself to get up the court. I disagree on what type of player is. I've seen him get up the court quite fast on offense; it's getting back on defense that he hasn't shown good foot speed. (By the way, in recent games he's getting up and down the floor much better). Cousins would also make a nice trailer because he also can hit that open 15-18 ft shot. Also, Cousins is key because he can get the rebounds to start the fast break. He can pass; there's no reason why he can't do a lot more outlets to the half court line.
 
Kingster said:
Playing at a faster pace could get Casspi out of his funk. He's a fast player. He can get up the court and get open looks. He's a guy who is thinking too much out there. If he just runs and shoots when he's open (if the guards would give up the ball), then those shots could start dropping.

Garcia is the same as Casspi - he needs to run. Get him in open space and let it fly. Those shots will start dropping.

Thompson is also a guy who could benefit. The strongest thing he has going for him on offense is he's pretty fast and he can hit an open face-up 18 footer. He could be a nice trailer on a fast break. Or, with his hustle, he can get some rebs on missed shots. Also, because he gets rebounds, he key to starting the break.

Cousins would benefit greatly just because he'd get into shape faster. Maybe in a month we'd see a more svelt Cousins after he did push himself to get up the court. I disagree on what type of player is. I've seen him get up the court quite fast on offense; it's getting back on defense that he hasn't shown good foot speed. (By the way, in recent games he's getting up and down the floor much better). Cousins would also make a nice trailer because he also can hit that open 15-18 ft shot. Also, Cousins is key because he can get the rebounds to start the fast break. He can pass; there's no reason why he can't do a lot more outlets to the half court line.
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Sure, theres some players that are willing to run and spot up for shots. JT can run the floor well, he is a mobile big man. I don't think Cousins is ready for it though. If anything, they could do what Phoenix did with Shaq and just have him pass it to the PG and if he doesn't make it all the way up the floor before he gets there, a shot goes up and he doesn't have to start all the way from the other side of the court. It's all up to Tyreke & the coach implementing the style before it can work. Both have to be willing to agree that's how they want to play and have to do it consistently, not every once in a while.
 
i was at the game laker game yesterday and can support this. the kings NEVER pushed the ball. Tyreke in particular seems content with trotting the ball up every time. I don't get this because he is a player that needs to be in the open court. Last year we were a team that pushed the tempo alot. this year we never push the ball. we just aren't good enough in the half court to beat decent teams.
 
Tyreke is really hard to stop at full speed, but he also runs a poor fast break. Still, he would get easier baskets if he pushed the ball. He seems really uninterested in the idea in spite of this.
 
Well if you want to push the ball, start Pooh Jeter. I don't know how it would work out defensively, but the dude loves to run and did so last night every chance he got. One advantage of pushing the ball is you can sometimes get easy baskets before they get thier defense set. I'd like to point out that last year we got off to a 14/16 start. The lineup we used for that start was Hawes, Thompson, Casspi, Evans, and Beno. It wasn't the best defensive lineup in the world, but they at least played together. Hawes is gone, but I would think that everyone would agree that Cousins is an improvement over Hawes.

So why not go with a lineup of Cousins, Thompson, Casspi, Evans, and Beno. Cousins and Thompson seem to have decent chemistry on the floor. We know that Thompson and Casspi both run the floor well. Come off the bench with Greene, Landry, Dalembert, Jeter, and fill in with Cisco where ever you feel he's needed.

By the way, since that 14/16 start, the team has gone 15 and 55. I must credit some of these thoughts to a post I read on another fourm, which made some good points.

After that 14/16 start, the Kings record has been horrible, and its not improving fast. Westphal's responsibilities are to number one: Win as many games as possible and hopefully improve from the year before. Number two: develop our young players. So far I think we can safely say that number one is a failure. So on to number two. Is Casspi better than last year? Is Evans better than last year? Is Greene better than last year? Is Thompson better than last Year? Is Beno any better than last year? OR, have they all seemed to regress.

I'll let you answer those questions, but I know what my answer is. And I'll ask the same question he asked. Do you think the team would be playing better if Nellie were the coach? Would they be more exciting and would they be able to score. Would the players be having more fun playing? I'm not a big fan of Nellie's, but I'll give him credit, his teams have always been fun to watch.
 
bajaden said:
Well if you want to push the ball, start Pooh Jeter. I don't know how it would work out defensively, but the dude loves to run and did so last night every chance he got. One advantage of pushing the ball is you can sometimes get easy baskets before they get thier defense set. I'd like to point out that last year we got off to a 14/16 start. The lineup we used for that start was Hawes, Thompson, Casspi, Evans, and Beno. It wasn't the best defensive lineup in the world, but they at least played together. Hawes is gone, but I would think that everyone would agree that Cousins is an improvement over Hawes.

So why not go with a lineup of Cousins, Thompson, Casspi, Evans, and Beno. Cousins and Thompson seem to have decent chemistry on the floor. We know that Thompson and Casspi both run the floor well. Come off the bench with Greene, Landry, Dalembert, Jeter, and fill in with Cisco where ever you feel he's needed.

By the way, since that 14/16 start, the team has gone 15 and 55. I must credit some of these thoughts to a post I read on another fourm, which made some good points.

After that 14/16 start, the Kings record has been horrible, and its not improving fast. Westphal's responsibilities are to number one: Win as many games as possible and hopefully improve from the year before. Number two: develop our young players. So far I think we can safely say that number one is a failure. So on to number two. Is Casspi better than last year? Is Evans better than last year? Is Greene better than last year? Is Thompson better than last Year? Is Beno any better than last year? OR, have they all seemed to regress.

I'll let you answer those questions, but I know what my answer is. And I'll ask the same question he asked. Do you think the team would be playing better if Nellie were the coach? Would they be more exciting and would they be able to score. Would the players be having more fun playing? I'm not a big fan of Nellie's, but I'll give him credit, his teams have always been fun to watch.
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Nellie's a disaster, and one that leaves a lasting impact on a franchise too, since you have to clear out your roster of everybody but his freakshow style of players. Its a mockery of the game. Why not just hire a And1 coach while we're at it?
 
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I really do wish we'd run the open court more, Tyreke in particular should be taking advantage of every opportunity. There were MULTIPLE times in last nights game where we blew 4 on 2 fast breaks, which is plain pitiful.
 
bajaden said:
Well if you want to push the ball, start Pooh Jeter. I don't know how it would work out defensively, but the dude loves to run and did so last night every chance he got. One advantage of pushing the ball is you can sometimes get easy baskets before they get thier defense set. I'd like to point out that last year we got off to a 14/16 start. The lineup we used for that start was Hawes, Thompson, Casspi, Evans, and Beno. It wasn't the best defensive lineup in the world, but they at least played together. Hawes is gone, but I would think that everyone would agree that Cousins is an improvement over Hawes.

So why not go with a lineup of Cousins, Thompson, Casspi, Evans, and Beno. Cousins and Thompson seem to have decent chemistry on the floor. We know that Thompson and Casspi both run the floor well. Come off the bench with Greene, Landry, Dalembert, Jeter, and fill in with Cisco where ever you feel he's needed.

By the way, since that 14/16 start, the team has gone 15 and 55. I must credit some of these thoughts to a post I read on another fourm, which made some good points.

After that 14/16 start, the Kings record has been horrible, and its not improving fast. Westphal's responsibilities are to number one: Win as many games as possible and hopefully improve from the year before. Number two: develop our young players. So far I think we can safely say that number one is a failure. So on to number two. Is Casspi better than last year? Is Evans better than last year? Is Greene better than last year? Is Thompson better than last Year? Is Beno any better than last year? OR, have they all seemed to regress.

I'll let you answer those questions, but I know what my answer is. And I'll ask the same question he asked. Do you think the team would be playing better if Nellie were the coach? Would they be more exciting and would they be able to score. Would the players be having more fun playing? I'm not a big fan of Nellie's, but I'll give him credit, his teams have always been fun to watch.
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Bajaden,

You read my mind about Jeter. I don't care one way or another about him starting, but personally I'd like Westphal to play him a lot more and tell him to run the damned ball every chance he can get. Also, he's one guard on this team that actually seems to know what it means to throw the ball up the court.

The lineup that you mentioned would work. Dally would even work because he can rebound and throw the outlet pass (you don't have to have a center be the finisher on the break obviously). Really, the only guy that I'm dubious about with a running team is Landry. He doesn't rebound, so he's not starting the break. He's not a great defender. I can't see him do a pull up 15 jumper on the break or finish a break. Seems like the only offense he'd thrive in is a set-up throw it in the post kind of offense. But if Landry is the casualty of this approach, so be it.

You have a point about regressing players. To me, Tyreke is the key factor. Tyreke literally won games for this team last year. He was a difference maker. And he made the other guys better on this team. He gave them confidence that they could win the game. He's not the same player this year, and the team's confidence has gone down with his own.

Westphal wanted to build for the long term. Just like Brick alluded to, eventually to be very good you need to have a good set-up offense, preferably with a good inside game. But now Westphal has to adjust to reality and realize that he has to sacrifice some long term development for short term wins. If he wants to channel Nellie, so be it...:D
 
Bricklayer said:
Nellie's a disaster, and one that leaves a lasting impact on a franchise too, since you have to clear out your roster of everybody but his freakshow style of players. Its a mockery of the game. Why not just hire a And1 coach while we're at it?
Click to expand...

I was by no means suggesting that we hire Nellie. I was simply pointing out that its possible that he would be doing a better job than Westphal at putting a product on the floor that plays together and is interesting to watch. Nellie would be a disastor with Cousins. He's never known what to do with big men.
 
Kingster said:
Bajaden,

You read my mind about Jeter. I don't care one way or another about him starting, but personally I'd like Westphal to play him a lot more and tell him to run the damned ball every chance he can get. Also, he's one guard on this team that actually seems to know what it means to throw the ball up the court.

The lineup that you mentioned would work. Dally would even work because he can rebound and throw the outlet pass (you don't have to have a center be the finisher on the break obviously). Really, the only guy that I'm dubious about with a running team is Landry. He doesn't rebound, so he's not starting the break. He's not a great defender. I can't see him do a pull up 15 jumper on the break or finish a break. Seems like the only offense he'd thrive in is a set-up throw it in the post kind of offense. But if Landry is the casualty of this approach, so be it.

You have a point about regressing players. To me, Tyreke is the key factor. Tyreke literally won games for this team last year. He was a difference maker. And he made the other guys better on this team. He gave them confidence that they could win the game. He's not the same player this year, and the team's confidence has gone down with his own.

Westphal wanted to build for the long term. Just like Brick alluded to, eventually to be very good you need to have a good set-up offense, preferably with a good inside game. But now Westphal has to adjust to reality and realize that he has to sacrifice some long term development for short term wins. If he wants to channel Nellie, so be it...:D
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There's no doubt that if you don't have a good halfcourt offense, your no going to win any championships. Good run and gun teams can usually win enough games during the season to get into the playoffs. But thats usually where their run ends. Look how many times Nellie's teams have come up short. Ditto the Suns. However, since the Kings aren't staring a championship in the face, I'm all far anything they can do to jumpstart the team.. One thing is for sure, what they're doing isn't working, and the players aren't having any fun while playing. Fast breaks come from making stops and rebounding. We certainly have the rebounding, and all of our rebounders are good passers, and I'm not counting Landry in that mix. But even if you taking the ball out of the basket, there's no reason you can't push the ball up the court. Against bad teams your still going to get quick baskets off of made baskets. But you have to at least try.
 
Now here is where Evans is a big problem. There are many times when I see a player in front on the break but Evans fails to get him the ball, be it JT or Donte or Casspi or whoever. On the Lakers, Spurs, any great team, the ball would be rebounded, pushed a little, the open man in front spotted and a perfect pass made. That doesn't happen on our team
 
I am so on board with running...

It's how they got out to such a fast start against Dallas and how they got back in the clippers game.

If we're going to be bad, let's have fun while doing it.
 
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