The inevitable "we're better without Fox" thread...split from game thread
- Thread starter Kings Faithful
- Start date
Some of you guys still aren't registering what im saying. Im saying that Fox is our best player without a doubt. Im saying building a team around him isnt a bad idea. I'm also saying THIS team built around him does not mesh. We have a mixture of too many different play styles and when Fox is in the lineup the style of play tilts so far that it really affects the other players imo. Specifically i think that Bogi and Bejelica have a hard time adjusting to it. Maybe the answer is to trade them instead, I don't know. I just don't think this is going to work as it is right now.
Me posing the question isn't meant to be a dig on Fox. Its a dig on whoever thought this team would jive together. Again Ill say it. The team looks better without Fox on it. Its also possible the team would look better without Bogi and Bejelica on it. Im just pointing it out. I would gladly like to be proven wrong after a Fox led Kings team goes on a 5 game winning streak and leads us to the 6th seed in the playoffs.
My observations are not pre mature. This is based on last season as well. I think so once we added Barnes into the mix last year this issue really started to be apparent to me. Fox going out and us looking more like a competant fluid basketball team just re affirmed it.
Me posing the question isn't meant to be a dig on Fox. Its a dig on whoever thought this team would jive together. Again Ill say it. The team looks better without Fox on it. Its also possible the team would look better without Bogi and Bejelica on it. Im just pointing it out. I would gladly like to be proven wrong after a Fox led Kings team goes on a 5 game winning streak and leads us to the 6th seed in the playoffs.
My observations are not pre mature. This is based on last season as well. I think so once we added Barnes into the mix last year this issue really started to be apparent to me. Fox going out and us looking more like a competant fluid basketball team just re affirmed it.
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It’s logically possible for your statement and the OP to both be true.
Fox could well be the best player on the court with the vast majority of the value being on the offensive end. At the same time, the team at the moment could be worse because Fox brings things other can come close to replicating while we have no one else that is close to CoJo defensively.
Fox could well be the best player on the court with the vast majority of the value being on the offensive end. At the same time, the team at the moment could be worse because Fox brings things other can come close to replicating while we have no one else that is close to CoJo defensively.
Fox is the Kings BEST Player, PERIOD!
You build around Fox and the Kings have been building around Fox.
This is his first game back and I expect him to regain his starting position very soon. And when he does, the Kings will be a lot better and will make a huge push for the playoffs. When Fox is on, he controls the game very well, that is something no other PG on the Kings can do. The Kings were starting to roll, before his ankle injury.
Give the Kings a few games to integrate Fox and Bagley back in and we should be in solid contention for the 7th and 8th seed of the playoffs.
You build around Fox and the Kings have been building around Fox.
This is his first game back and I expect him to regain his starting position very soon. And when he does, the Kings will be a lot better and will make a huge push for the playoffs. When Fox is on, he controls the game very well, that is something no other PG on the Kings can do. The Kings were starting to roll, before his ankle injury.
Give the Kings a few games to integrate Fox and Bagley back in and we should be in solid contention for the 7th and 8th seed of the playoffs.
People are always talking about teams meshing and geling. What they really mean is play defense, rebound and share the ball. Basketball is not that complicated. All of this discussion about different styles of play is hyperbole. Fox can score and he is a good assist man. That makes him compatible with lots of different styles of play.
It's too early to talk about trading guys for chemistry reasons. We haven't seen this group play together for even a month yet. But there is trouble on the horizon that goes beyond anybody's performance in one game....
Last year Dallas shifted course and traded Dennis Smith Jr. and Harrison Barnes because they found a star player and realized they weren't going to be good fits on the team going forward. They also didn't have much to lose because the team they had was going nowhere. Our situation is a little different. We were at absolute rock bottom when we traded for Buddy Hield and drafted De'Aaron Fox. At that point there was a need to acquire talent and fit wasn't a part of the equation yet. The following year is when we had a tough decision to make and the Bagley pick (as far as I can tell) was mostly about trying to find the best compliment to Fox. There were more polished offensive players in the draft, better playmakers, and better defenders but Bagley is a high-level athlete who produced in college and plays fast. So it seems pretty obvious that we're going to be a running team now right?
But then this season happened and we lost both Fox and Bagley early on. Starting out 0-5 and losing our best player and top prospect for extended time it seemed like we were just going to have to have pack it in but then Bjelica and Holmes seized starting roles and Bogdanovic started to look like the All-Tournament player we saw in China over the summer. At this point in the season we're almost the exact opposite of who we were last year. From top 5 in pace we've fallen to 30th. From 9th in PPG we've fallen to 25th. From 26th in Opponent PPG we've risen to 9th. So the question now, with Fox and Bagley back, is how much can we afford to give back on defense in exchange for a vastly improved offense?
It's not simply a matter of Fox or Bagley being poor defenders relative to the guys who took their minutes while they were out. You could argue it but we're dealing with such small sample sizes that I don't think you can definitively state it. The problem, as I see it, is more one of identity. Richaun Holmes knows he's on the floor to defend and grab rebounds. Corey Jospeh does not have a huge role in the offense so he expends more of his effort on the defensive side as well. There's no question that Fox and Bagley are both talented and capable but are they going to commit to being defensive role-players first? Are they going to sacrifice their own stats for the good of the team? How can they be the star players we expect them to be without upsetting the balance which existed without them? Or do we expect the rest of the team to switch back to pushing the pace again? It's hard for me to figure out right now what this team wants to be. It seems like you have Fox/Bagley and then everyone else and they're almost completely different teams...
On one level you're exactly right. Team basketball is about playing defense, rebounding, and sharing the ball. But in the NBA things work out a little differently. There's a lot of room for nuance within those basic parameters. Are you a team that's going to throw outlet passes to the three point line and fire away? Are you a team that's going to use dribble penetration to create open shots? Are you a team that's going to work inside out and get the ball to a big man in the post? Are you a team that's going to rely on pick and rolls to force defensive switches and score opportunistically while the defense is out of position? Teams that win consistently know exactly how they're going to break down a defense and the more they find players who buy into their system and execute their roles with precision the more successful they're going to be. Trying to be everything at once is rarely successful at this level.
I'm not saying that it won't work with Fox and Bagley, just that I agree with Kings Faithful that it's clear what everyone's role is on this team without them and it's less clear what everyone's role is with them. Hopefully that's going to get better over the course of the season. There's a lot of time left for them to figure it out. Making adjustments mid-season has not been a strength of our more recent coaching staffs but this one might be different. It appears they've already done it once after all.
Last year Dallas shifted course and traded Dennis Smith Jr. and Harrison Barnes because they found a star player and realized they weren't going to be good fits on the team going forward. They also didn't have much to lose because the team they had was going nowhere. Our situation is a little different. We were at absolute rock bottom when we traded for Buddy Hield and drafted De'Aaron Fox. At that point there was a need to acquire talent and fit wasn't a part of the equation yet. The following year is when we had a tough decision to make and the Bagley pick (as far as I can tell) was mostly about trying to find the best compliment to Fox. There were more polished offensive players in the draft, better playmakers, and better defenders but Bagley is a high-level athlete who produced in college and plays fast. So it seems pretty obvious that we're going to be a running team now right?
But then this season happened and we lost both Fox and Bagley early on. Starting out 0-5 and losing our best player and top prospect for extended time it seemed like we were just going to have to have pack it in but then Bjelica and Holmes seized starting roles and Bogdanovic started to look like the All-Tournament player we saw in China over the summer. At this point in the season we're almost the exact opposite of who we were last year. From top 5 in pace we've fallen to 30th. From 9th in PPG we've fallen to 25th. From 26th in Opponent PPG we've risen to 9th. So the question now, with Fox and Bagley back, is how much can we afford to give back on defense in exchange for a vastly improved offense?
It's not simply a matter of Fox or Bagley being poor defenders relative to the guys who took their minutes while they were out. You could argue it but we're dealing with such small sample sizes that I don't think you can definitively state it. The problem, as I see it, is more one of identity. Richaun Holmes knows he's on the floor to defend and grab rebounds. Corey Jospeh does not have a huge role in the offense so he expends more of his effort on the defensive side as well. There's no question that Fox and Bagley are both talented and capable but are they going to commit to being defensive role-players first? Are they going to sacrifice their own stats for the good of the team? How can they be the star players we expect them to be without upsetting the balance which existed without them? Or do we expect the rest of the team to switch back to pushing the pace again? It's hard for me to figure out right now what this team wants to be. It seems like you have Fox/Bagley and then everyone else and they're almost completely different teams...
On one level you're exactly right. Team basketball is about playing defense, rebounding, and sharing the ball. But in the NBA things work out a little differently. There's a lot of room for nuance within those basic parameters. Are you a team that's going to throw outlet passes to the three point line and fire away? Are you a team that's going to use dribble penetration to create open shots? Are you a team that's going to work inside out and get the ball to a big man in the post? Are you a team that's going to rely on pick and rolls to force defensive switches and score opportunistically while the defense is out of position? Teams that win consistently know exactly how they're going to break down a defense and the more they find players who buy into their system and execute their roles with precision the more successful they're going to be. Trying to be everything at once is rarely successful at this level.
I'm not saying that it won't work with Fox and Bagley, just that I agree with Kings Faithful that it's clear what everyone's role is on this team without them and it's less clear what everyone's role is with them. Hopefully that's going to get better over the course of the season. There's a lot of time left for them to figure it out. Making adjustments mid-season has not been a strength of our more recent coaching staffs but this one might be different. It appears they've already done it once after all.
We weren't setting the world on fire but it was just effective enough for someone to justify suggesting that we might trade Bagley and Fox for players who fit that style better and come out ahead. We had a different identity last year but that team fell apart down the stretch. As things currently stand, we're a playoff team. Doubling down on what we're already doing could be a wise move. I'm not saying I completely agree but I can see why the argument would be made. And even if I did agree, it's so hard to find comparable value on the trade market that we'd more likely be getting 50 cents on our dollar. First you need to find a team that values your players highly enough to give up valuable pieces for them and then you need those pieces to fit seamlessly into the rotation. That's hard to find in any context. Which makes it a rhetorical question more than a practical one. Basically, unless a superstar player unexpectedly becomes available, our best option is to find a way to blend Fox and Bagley in to what's already working if that's at all possible.
It's great that finally we can finally get to the important stuff. What Oscar could add to this team is pretty well known. Tiny was quick like Fox. The reason I enjoyed watching him so much is that he looked like a high school junior while leading the league in points and assists the same year. (If I just sent a few people off to the archives, I've done my job.) All those people asking "Wait a minute ... time machine?" just don't understand the value of good analysis. I look forward to continuing this important dialog.