The Finals

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Mr. S£im Citrus said:
As to the LeBron thing, specifically, I guess that I keep coming back to that because, for lack of a better word, I'm getting triggered by the concept of praising being "anti-LeBron" as a desirable trait. Especially since I feel like there are more apt comparisons, if you want to elevate somebody, while attacking somebody else. For one thing, James has never "ring chased." He's left three times, all three times as a free agent, and all three times, he went to a team that wasn't a contender until he got there: that's the opposite of chasing a ring. You want to call somebody a ring chaser? That would be Anthony Davis. And, by the way, all the stuff that gets levied at LeBron James ("coach killer," "diva," "antics," "needs help to win")... all of that applies to Anthony Davis, and yet, all of that somehow sticks to LeBron, and none of it sticks to Anthony Davis, and I don't understand why that is?

If anything, Giannis Antetokounmpo is the anti-AD, but I guess that isn't as catchy, or something.
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I could be off - and am sure there is more to it - but unfortunately I think whenever someone reaches that level of fame people are going to respond negatively regardless of what they do. I doubt being 'anti-Lebron' has that much to do with the actual person or basketball player LeBron is vs what people have decided he represents. That people don't really hate AD is more a reflection of what he isn't than an objective judgement of his basketball decisions. Imagine some poor kid at a mid level university will write a thesis on it.

In fairness to the people who don't like LeBron - with all the media attention he got as a HS kid - I felt I had overdosed on him before he even played a game as a pro. And in fairness to the people that love him - I do not think there is much more he could have done as a basketball player - and I do not think there are that many people that could survive the spotlight like he has without falling off the wagon at some point. I certainly couldn't.

Also. Go Bucks!
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Why else would the notion even exist? Nobody cared about how "loyal" mister Bill Russell was to the Celtics, in large part because he was not capable of leaving the Celtics. Back when he played, he wouldn't even have had enough leverage to demand a trade: even that didn't really come until the early/mid-seventies. In mister Russell's era, the team traded you, when they decided that you were expendable, and basically no other time. Nobody talked about Jordan's career, in terms of "loyalty," until well after his third retirement, and even that required whitewashing the Wizards era. Because, although he technically had free agency available to him, it still didn't allow for player movement, in the ways that it does, today. Free agency didn't exist in any form until the late-seventies/early-eighties, and basically didn't exist as we understand it today, until about 20 years ago. Which, coincidentally, is around the time people suddenly started to care about whether superstars were "loyal."
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Where would Bill Russell even have gone? There were only seven and a half teams in the league when he was drafted. The league was in shambles financially; playoff bonuses were months late, players would sell insurance door to door in the off season. Having a financially unsuccessful league that doesn’t grow doesn’t help anybody. The players recognize this, and if the pie keeps growing, everyone is copacetic.

Bill Russell, infamously, had the coolest relationship with local fans in the history of any athletic superstar (for important reasons.) That exception, being so notable, proves the rule. From the same era, Bob Cousy’s retirement “Boston Tear Party” shows the degree which the NBA has always benefitted from parasocial relationships between local fans and players, formed over the course of years.

I’m not ready to make a case for causation, but I do think it’s interesting that the NBA hasn’t added any new teams since the “super-free-agency” era started. This is the longest period of stagnation the NBA has ever had. Steady growth for 45 years, and then nothing for 15. (The NBA must be increasing revenue by selling internationally, but that’s got its own set of issues.)

Also, I seem to remember stars of the 90s being praised for merging themselves with their team’s brand... David Robinson, Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton, Karl Malone (I suppose his last stint with the Lakers falls within the 2004 milestone, but up to that point I think fans liked the idea that he and the Jazz were an institution.)
 
Where could mister Russell have gone is a damned good question. I am inclined to think that he would have had a slightly better off-court experience in Philadelphia or New York than Boston, even if only slightly. I am further inclined to think that he could have made about any team a winner, except that it boggles my mind to try and imagine what Auerbach would have demanded in return for mister Russell, in a trade?

As far as expansion is concerned, I wouldn't want to see them add an odd number of teams. And your mileage may vary, but I find it difficult to believe that there are two or more cities in North America that could support an NBA franchise, and actually wants one. Like, Seattle, and who?
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
:: shrugs ::

By your standards, I probably do. I can live with that, though. Honestly, that's a not-insignificant part of why so many of my exchanges with other posters tend to go on as long as they do: I get unfairly (and inaccurately) knocked for arguing just to argue when, actually, I have an overpowering demand to have my words be understood, that is informed by a lifetime of being a neurodivergent, who was expected to change the way I look at things, to conform to other people's more neurotypical perspective..

That, and I seem to have a weird way of finding the part of a post that the poster I'm engaging with thinks is much less interesting than I do. And vice versa.
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I'm curious though - and we can take this to PM if need be, since you say you have a need to "have [your] words be understood", is it the case that you on the flip side have a similar demand to understand others' words in the way you want? Because it's one thing to say you want others to understand what you mean, but almost a "hypocritical" opposite to then argue for others to mean what you understand.
 
mac said:
I'm curious though - and we can take this to PM if need be, since you say you have a need to "have [your] words be understood", is it the case that you on the flip side have a similar demand to understand others' words in the way you want? Because it's one thing to say you want others to understand what you mean, but almost a "hypocritical" opposite to then argue for others to mean what you understand.
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A large portion of my "arguing" is me trying to figure out what the **** other people are talking about. There's nothing hypocritical about that, because I don't expect people to not do it back to me, I don't pass judgement on people who do it back to me, and I've never once tried to assert my authority as a moderator to deny other posters the opportunity to do it to me. You might be able to argue that it's contradictory, I guess, but I don't see it that way. I generally feel like everyone is entitled to be understood, but I will stipulate that I tend to have less empathy for people who take being understood for granted.
 
PurpleHaze said:
I agree about the Greek Freak (not sure when got nickname - age 18 or earlier?) Recall Giannis 6'9", skinny back then but by age 19-20 had grown to 6'11". Ben to me will always be a bust Kings #7 selection. Who can forget Scot Pollard (fellow KU alum) warning against selecting him. He was right, Vivek was wrong - no surprise!).
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Petrie was right too. He advised the KINGS to seriously consider Giannis as he departed the GM position.
 
SacTownKid said:
LeBron is LeBron so he'll get the benefit.
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The benefit of what??

SacTownKid said:
The Nets took them to 7 with basically Durant and nothing else and all it took was an inch more on that 3.
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You can make claims like this pretty much every single season. Part of winning a championship is surviving the bad luck and timing of injuries.

See the odd 2019/2020 season that ended in a bubble as an example. The Warriors were decimated by injury and KD was out
the entire season.

SacTownKid said:
In the end, I think with what we saw in these series leading up, if Kawhi is healthy and the Nets are 100%, then that's probably your finals matchup unfortunately.
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I can't totally disagree with that. Specifically the Clips coming out of the West. But I still think MIL could have beaten BKLN with Kyrie and the Bearded Hag healthy. I'm not yet convinced that trio is going to work as well as most seem to believe.

Regardless, the Nets will still go as far as KD can take them. He's the player that matters most.
 
Turgenev said:
I could be off - and am sure there is more to it - but unfortunately I think whenever someone reaches that level of fame people are going to respond negatively regardless of what they do. I doubt being 'anti-Lebron' has that much to do with the actual person or basketball player LeBron is vs what people have decided he represents. a mid level university will write a thesis on it.

In fairness to the people who don't like LeBron - with all the media attention he got as a HS kid - I felt I had overdosed on him before he even played a game as a pro. And in fairness to the people that love him - I do not think there is much more he could have done as a basketball player - and I do not think there are that many people that could survive the spotlight like he has without falling off the wagon at some point. I certainly couldn't.
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My dislike for LBJ has everything to do with the person he has become. IMO he has been misled by his "advisors" and inner circle. And followed their lead due to money and also due to deep rooted insecurity.

I've said this before, but will say it again. I was a big LBJ fan for many years. I jumped on the bangwagon watching his HS games at St. Mary's-St. Vincent and rooted hard for him each and every time the Cavs made the Finals. I also defended him when constantly compared to Michael Jordan (which was never his fault in the early days).

However despite what others like Slim suggest, he did ring chase by leaving Cleveland for MIA. He joined a team that he knew was going to include 2 other All-Stars and had already won a title just a few years earlier with their leader, Dwyane Wade, leading the way as Finals MVP.

At the time, LBJ wasn't known as a "clutch" performer and often deferred to others when things mattered most. In joining Wade, he had a guy that could bail him out of clutch moments. When Ray Allen joined the team a while later -- he had a 2nd clutch performer to do the same. Remember, it was Allen that made the game tying 3 to keep MIA from losing to the Spurs in 6.

When LBJ went back to Cleveland he knew he was joining a team that recently landed #1 draft pick Kyrie Irving (another player that could bail him out of clutch time situations) and a 3rd All-Star in Kevin Love.

In the end, LBJ wasn't able to accomplish what Giannis just did in staying put and winning a title by having the team built around him. LBJ was good enough to make the Finals in an extremely weak East but was never good enough to overcome as the clear cut #1 option in crunch time.

Circling back to why I now dislike him, it's not only his front running ways and the manner in which he bailed on Cleveland the 1st time (i.e. "the announcement") but also the incessant need to self-proclaim as the GOAT. Which is utterly ridiculous. And shows how insecure and out-of-touch he has become. Even as cocky as conceited as MJ is, he's gone on record many times saying he can't claim to be the GOAT. And he has a more accomplish career on the whole.

Even more than the above, I loathe LBJ's infusion of politics into the sport of basketball (while largely not being all that educated about most of what he proposes to speak out about). Something he really didn't do much the 1st half of his career, if at all.

I can't recall which media member it was that talked about it recently, but he asserted that it was like LBJ finally gave up on the notion that he could ever topple Michael Jordan as the most loved basketball player of all time or outsell him in merchandise and heeded the advice of his inner circle to try to become the next Muhammed Ali instead. Which he is in no way qualified to be beyond being a similarly popular athlete. He doesn't have half of Ali's charm, charisma or understanding of the issues. Most of all, he never took a serious personal stand or career risk as Ali did.

Ali risked going to prison to support his beliefs. If it threatens his bottom line or career, LBJ has no interest in putting things on the line. He's completely fake.

If he really wanted to make a statement and really wanted to support everything he says he believes in -- he could have taken an "Amazing Grace and Chuck" type of stand and refused to play ball anymore until things began to change. That kind of stand could have started an avalanche of support from others doing the same. And with Hollywood and the sports world effectively shutting down, the powers that be accustomed to making $$$ off the entertainment industry just might have panicked and started to help.

But nobody wants to risk their livelihood or careers as Ali once did. Even though many of them already have more than enough to retire on.
That's one of many reasons why I can't buy into their BS. Least of all LBJ.


Turgenev said:
That people don't really hate AD is more a reflection of what he isn't than an objective judgement of his basketball decisions.
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I've never liked AD either. I've never thought he was as good as advertised. I always point to the playoff series where Draymond Green guarded him straight up and AD consistently settled for shots outside the paint -- especially in the waning moments of the games. He's all finesse and weak.

DeMarcus Cousins never let the much smaller Green do that to him.

As a person AD just never seemed all that interesting to me either. He's certainly a very talented player. But just nowhere near the level of a Tim Duncan or even Kevin Garnett or Chris Webber IMO.
 
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Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Like, Seattle, and who?
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Seattle and St. Louis make sense to me.

I could also see a case for Vegas, now that they have NFL, NHL and WNBA teams. Not the taboo it was only 10 years ago. Could add Seattle and Vegas together and move the T-Wolves, Grizzles or Pelicans to the Eastern Conference.

Louisville seems like a solid darkhorse option. Maybe Kansas City too.
 
Löwenherz said:
Seattle and St. Louis make sense to me.

I could also see a case for Vegas, now that they have NFL, NHL and WNBA teams. Not the taboo it was only 10 years ago. Could add Seattle and Vegas together and move the T-Wolves, Grizzles or Pelicans to the Eastern Conference.

Louisville seems like a solid darkhorse option. Maybe Kansas City too.
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Kansas City's got a nice arena and the sports infrastructure to handle an NBA team (just don't make us give back the Kings name). Would like to see the league give Vancouver another chance too. The Grizzlies were abjectly awful when the were in Vancouver so I feel like that's sort've given the city a bad rap.

The Lakers would probably throw an absolute fit if Vegas got a team since that's pretty much their second main market and while the league has gotten much more lenient as far as sports betting is concerned, let's not forget that this is the league whose ref infamous got busted for fixing games.
 
Tetsujin said:
Kansas City's got a nice arena and the sports infrastructure to handle an NBA team (just don't make us give back the Kings name). Would like to see the league give Vancouver another chance too. The Grizzlies were abjectly awful when the were in Vancouver so I feel like that's sort've given the city a bad rap.
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Ever see that Big Country doc on Netflix?

I always felt it was a shame they couldn't keep the team.

As for Vegas, the success of the Knights may disprove it but there was a lot of thought that a local sports team would kind of serve the same purpose that the Clippers did, which is to be the resident Washington Generals where all the tourists could then come see their favorite NBA team come beat on them.
 
Löwenherz said:
Seattle and St. Louis make sense to me.

I could also see a case for Vegas, now that they have NFL, NHL and WNBA teams. Not the taboo it was only 10 years ago. Could add Seattle and Vegas together and move the T-Wolves, Grizzles or Pelicans to the Eastern Conference.

Louisville seems like a solid darkhorse option. Maybe Kansas City too.
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St, Louis has an arena, sure. But I'm not convinced that that community would welcome an NBA franchise, in the modern era. I can't see Kentucky accepting an NBA team, in this era, under any circumstances. Vegas, maybe.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
St, Louis has an arena, sure. But I'm not convinced that that community would welcome an NBA franchise, in the modern era. I can't see Kentucky accepting an NBA team, in this era, under any circumstances. Vegas, maybe.
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I think Louisville might disagree....... but they belong in Indiana anyways.
 
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