The Defenders -- A Little Respect Please

[Bricklayer]

On Sunday the Kings collapsed defensively, allowing the Raptors to score 118 points on 58.3% shooting. Below I will show you why that result was something akin to a conscious choice made by our coaching staff.

And now I introduce to you the two best defensive players on the Sacramento Kings:

Two players who there have been subject in recent weeks to some very odd attempts to deny their defensive effectiveness. So let's get to the numbers shall we?

First, our team season defensive stats:
Pts Against: 101.77 (22nd in NBA)
Opp FG%: .474 (26th in NBA)

Now let's look at how Donte and Daly impact those stats -- below are our season results in Opp Pts and Opp FG%, along wiht where we would rank in the NBA with those stats, depending on how many minutes each player has played in a game:

Donte
Donte < 10min (15 games) = 103.3pts (22nd in NBA) /.487FG% (29th in NBA)
Donte 11-19min (2 games) = 105.5pts (26th in NBA) / .506FG% (30th in NBA)
Donte > 20min (17 games) = 99.9pts (17th in NBA) / .459FG% (17th in NBA)

Dalembert
Daly < 10min (10 games) = 106.1pts (27th in NBA) / .483FG% (29th in NBA)
Daly 11-19min (9 games) = 102.4pts (22nd in NBA) / .493FG% (30th in NBA)
Daly > 20min (15 games) = 98.5pts (16th in NBA) / .459FG% (17th in NBA)

Donte + Daly both > 20 (6 games) = 93.3 (5th in NBA) / .432FG% (2nd in NBA)


Over the course of the season these two defensively ineffective individuals have by themselves been all that stood between us and being an average defensive team. When we actually played them together for significant minutes we put up defensive numbers the equal of any team in the NBA. When we don't play them significant minutes, we have pretty much been the worst defensive team in the NBA. We did not play them Sunday. Odd how that works.

Raw data:

Spoiler

Minn -- Donte 26S, Dalembert 0 116 43-91
Nj -- DOnte 3, Dalembert 6 106 32-61
Cle -- Donte 0, Dalembert 16 104 39-80
Tor -- Donte 0, Dalembert 22 108 39-85
LAL -- Donte 0, Dalembert 28 112 39-84
MEM -- Donte 0, Dalembert 32S 100 40-83
MIN -- Donte 3, Dalembert 36s 98 41-87
PHX -- Donte 0, Dalembert 24s 103 41-79
DET -- Donte 0, Dalembert 23s 100 41-76
NYK --Donte 20, Dalembert 12s 113 37-71
NJN -- Donte 34s, Dalembert 19s 81 32-70
NOH --Donte 32s, Dalembert 30s 75 28-87
UTH --Donte 23s, Dalembert 23s 94 34-76
LAC --Donte 23s, Dalembert 9s 100 35-69
CHI --Donte 32s, Dalembert 30s 96 33-77
IND --Donte 22s, Dalembert 22s 107 36-79
LAL --Donte 19s, Dalembert 19s 113 47-83
DAL --Donte 26s, Dalembert 16 105 38-76
LAC --Donte 14s, Dalembert 21 98 36-81
WSH --Donte 27s, Dalembert 0 91 31-75
MIA --Donte 27s, Dalembert 25 104 41-79
HOU --Donte 25s, Dalembert 9 118 42-80
NOH --Donte 20s, Dalembert 18 94 34-78
OKC --Donte 25s, Dalembert 4 102 39-81
HOU --Donte 23s, Dalembert 19 102 37-83
GSW --Donte 23s, Dalembert 8 117 42-89
MIL --Donte 27s, Dalembert 31s 84 35-81
LAC --Donte 0, Dalembert 29s 100 40-83
MEM --Donte 3, Dalembert 24s 98 38-87
DEN --Donte 3, Dalembert 7 104 39-85
PHX --Donte 3, Dalembert 3 89 35-87
ATL --Donte 4, Dalembert 17 108 40-78
DEN --Donte 2, Dalembert 16 102 36-71
TOR --Donte 0, Dalembert 9 118 48-82

Donte < 10 = 1550 103.3 (15 games) 588-1208 39.2-80.5 .487
Donte 11-19 = 211 105.5 (2 games) 83-164 41.5-82 .506
Donte > 20 = 1699 99.9 (17 games) 617-1342 36.2-78.9 .459

Daly < 10 = 1061 = 106.1 (10 games) 386-800 38.6-80.0 .483
Daly 11-19 = 922 = 102.4 (9 games) 340-690 37.8-76.7 .493
Daly > 20 = 1477 = 98.5 (15 games) 562-1224 .459

Donte + Daly both > 20 = 560 = 93.3 (6 games) 207-479 .432

Overall: 101.77 (22nd)
Overall .474 (26th)

 

[captain bill]

Great job on the stats. I'm a big fan of Dalembert and hope the Kings find a way to lock him up long-term. He's also a fantastic vet to have around to help teach Cousins and Whiteside how to play D.

It will be interesting going forward to see whether Coach can get both Casspi and Greene involved together on the team (so far he's shown no indication to try). Maybe Casspi can shift to SG or Greene to PF, or one can commit to coming off the bench (if they know they are valued and buy into a system they have confidence in...not a huge chance of that now).

 

[16to93]

Great post. Greene needs to be getting more minutes without a doubt. Taylor should not be playing over Greene. Neither should Head for that matter. Go big with Reke/Cisco/Greene or Casspi/Cousins/Dalembert lineup. As I mentioned somewhere else, I really hope we can lock Sammy up on a good contract for several years, as he is definitely needed for us to be a championship-contending team.

 

[Showtime]

Great job on the stats. I'm a big fan of Dalembert and hope the Kings find a way to lock him up long-term. He's also a fantastic vet to have around to help teach Cousins and Whiteside how to play D.

*puke*

Sammy costs the team as many baskets as he blocks from his goaltends, which happens at least once a game. He's also a horrible offensive player, and he costs the team possessions whenever they give him the ball an try to get something out of him. He's a nice guy, but he doesn't belong in long term plans unless they just want him to be a reserve guy who comes in for 15-20 minutes of relief time while DMC is resting or in foul trouble. I would rather they develop Hassan to the point of getting him into games rather than sign Sammy to a new deal.

 

[hrdboild]

Donte + Daly both > 20 (6 games) = 93.3 (5th in NBA) / .432FG% (2nd in NBA)

This is the stat that really jumps out at me. Those numbers are sexy. Do you think you could fax this info to the Kings' front office? They've talked a lot about wanting to build a defensive team the last 5 or 6 years and yet we've responded to these promising results by limiting Dalembert's minutes and cutting Donte's completely. I want Cousins and Casspi to play too, but there's room for all four of those guys to play big minutes if less effective players (not going to name names, but we all know who they are) were put on the bench instead. It's at least worth a try.

 

[Bricklayer]

*puke*

Sammy costs the team as many baskets as he blocks from his goaltends, which happens at least once a game.

One of the reasons I started a stats based thread like this was purposefully to eliminate these sort of dubious statements continuously being made. The numbers do not support your contention.

 

[Tetsujin]

One of the reasons I started a stats based thread like this was purposefully to eliminate these sort of dubious statements continuously being made. The numbers do not support your contention.

Intelligence often only garners stupid responses.

 

[Entity]

Aren't 90% of the goaltends going to points anyway? You act as if the goaltends are just giving them points? like they are 30 feet from the goal? Learn the game.

 

[Demarcus Cousins]

If the coach plays donte maybe we might be better

 

[ParniValjak]

Can someone please tell me a reason why Dalembert and Cousins cannot play together?!

I would have thought that Dalembert - Cousins combo should at least be tried for extended period of time. There is no reason why Dalembert cannot guard opposition's best big (PF or C) on the defensive end, and offensively Cousins is versatile enough for this combination to work.

There has to be a way for these 2 to play majority of the minutes together. We have waited for years to finally get a defensive anchor that will provide us with shot-blocking, rebounding and interior D, yet we have managed to pee that into the win a 3rd of a way through the season to the point where Sammy is disgruntled with his role.

Sometimes our coaching staff is too concerned about meaningless little things when they can be creating all sorts of match up problems for the other team

 

[hrdboild]

Sometimes our coaching staff is too concerned about meaningless little things when they can be creating all sorts of match up problems for the other team

Bullseye! That's exactly it. Exactly. This speaks to Tyreke's confused role this season as well.

 

[gunks]

Problem is Dally and Greene are our two most inept offensive players.

Dont get me wrong, with how badly Omri was stinking it up I think that Greene should have gotten more PT the last game, and I think Dally could have gotten some of Landry's minutes as well (we do well with big lineups, and I think Dally is mobile enough to cover PFs or Cs on D).

BUT... I'm totally against having Greene and Dally on the court at the same time. That is just too much bad offense.

Really, our only legit two way player is Reke. I'd say our next best two way player would be JT or Cisco, which goes to show what a talent drop off there is. Hopefully Omri can step his D up, because I have more faith in him becoming a better defender than Greene becoming anything but a liability on offense.

Hopefully we get ourselves a legit two way player this draft, via free agency, or a trade. And I dont even mean 20ppg, lockdown D, two way. I mean Good/Average or Average/good. It seems like all our guys are good/terrible or terrible/good. Just doesnt work.

Wishlist for Donte Greene: 1: just shoot a billion gajillion trillion jumpers a day this summer. If he can get consistant from 3, I can see him jumping Omri in the depth chart. 2: Put at least a little tiny teenie bit of effort into rebounding.

 

[King Baller]

I would have started Beno, Cisco, Greene, JT and Cousins in Toronto. Dally would have been the first big off the bench. JT and Dally's mission would have been to stick to Bargnani like glue. Greene could have locked up Klieza. Cisco and Omri could have tag teamed DeRozan..........Oh well, Paul did not call me and ask for the roster line up

KB

 

[Entity]

neither Cousins or Daly can guard the more versatile Big men on the perimeter.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

We're 3-15 with Greene playing more than 18 minutes, and 3-16 with Dalembert playing more than 18 minutes.

 

[rainmaker]

neither Cousins or Daly can guard the more versatile Big men on the perimeter.

I'd be more worried about getting beat inside, and that's where Cousins and Dally help. Yes there are a few pf's and centers who can shoot well, we faced one yesterday. But I would much rather take my chances with a team beating us from outside, shooting jumpers, and the numbers favor that assessment. The great defensive teams control the paint, both defensively and on the glass. If they get beaten by a hot shooting from the outside, then so be it. But teams don't beat you shooting jumpers frequently.

Just by the nature of the game, pf's or centers who are good at guarding perimeter players aren't that great at defending or banging inside. Not big enough. Most versatile big men who camp out at the 3pt line can't defend worth a damn in the post either.

I find it a little amusing the way some on here wanted a center who can be a force inside for years, and not a soft jump shooter like Brad or Spencer, who prefer playing outside and don't really like contact. We finally get two, and now the complaint is they can't guard the perimeter?

 

[Kingstime]

I find it a little amusing the way some on here wanted a center who can be a force inside for years, and not a soft jump shooter like Brad or Spencer, who prefer playing outside and don't really like contact. We finally get two, and now the complaint is they can't guard the perimeter?

Only because the NBA is evolving more and more becoming perimeter based where even the 7 footers can light you up from mid range out to the 3 pt line. Hell if you really think about it our 20 yr old rookie has a better back to the basket game than 90 percent of the NBA big men already. If your name isn't Bogut, Lopez, Gasol or Duncan your either inept in the post or launching jumpers.

I personally wish Dally and Greene could permantently crack the roation, there's really no reason for Donte to not have ANY minutes during games. To see Jermaine Taylor out there instead of Donte is quite stupid, you have to wonder why Donte can't get out there atleast he won't WASTE minutes like Taylor.

 

[ParniValjak]

I'd be more worried about getting beat inside, and that's where Cousins and Dally help. Yes there are a few pf's and centers who can shoot well, we faced one yesterday. But I would much rather take my chances with a team beating us from outside, shooting jumpers, and the numbers favor that assessment. The great defensive teams control the paint, both defensively and on the glass. If they get beaten by a hot shooting from the outside, then so be it. But teams don't beat you shooting jumpers frequently.

Just by the nature of the game, pf's or centers who are good at guarding perimeter players aren't that great at defending or banging inside. Not big enough. Most versatile big men who camp out at the 3pt line can't defend worth a damn in the post either.

I find it a little amusing the way some on here wanted a center who can be a force inside for years, and not a soft jump shooter like Brad or Spencer, who prefer playing outside and don't really like contact. We finally get two, and now the complaint is they can't guard the perimeter?

This is exactly right and precisely what I was referencing when I mentioned that our coaching staff is too concerned about meaningless little things when they can be creating all sorts of match up problems for the other team. They would worry about matching up on someone on the perimeter rather than stopping penetration. You play Dalembert and Cousins for 30 minutes against Toronto and Bargani might still get his points but I can guarantee you that DeRozen doesn't get anywhere near as many because his to the basket game would have been slowed down considerably with Dalembert's presence in the paint.

Sometimes coaches are too concerned by these things and are willinglly playing by what the other team is dictacting as opposed to playing your way and making the other team worry about matching up with you!

The best defensive teams lock down the middle and then worry about the perimeter where we seem to prefer the back to front approach. If a team beats you by hot shooting from the perimeter then so be it but lets say in 7 game series, your faith will be decided by your interior defence and not so much what you do on the perimeter. Perimeter D is important but not as important as the interior D. Finally we get a genuine low post defensive anchor and we sit him on the bench because of "match ups"

 

[ParniValjak]

Only because the NBA is evolving more and more becoming perimeter based where even the 7 footers can light you up from mid range out to the 3 pt line. Hell if you really think about it our 20 yr old rookie has a better back to the basket game than 90 percent of the NBA big men already. If your name isn't Bogut, Lopez, Gasol or Duncan your either inept in the post or launching jumpers.

I personally wish Dally and Greene could permantently crack the roation, there's really no reason for Donte to not have ANY minutes during games. To see Jermaine Taylor out there instead of Donte is quite stupid, you have to wonder why Donte can't get out there atleast he won't WASTE minutes like Taylor.

The game is becoming more perimeter based precisely because good lost post players are becoming as rare as hen's teeth. If you have one, you are on a winner and you should be forcing the other team to beat to your drum as opposed to the other way around. All those teams with perimeter based big man would sell their soul to get a genuine lost post presence. As Toronto if they would trade Bargani for a Gasol or an in prime Duncan and they would sign off on the deal before you could blink!

Just because low post players are rare, it doesn't mean that you should beat to the other team's drums. You should make them pay by your interior presence because that is a hell of a lot tougher to stop than a jump shooting big man.

 

[rainmaker]

Only because the NBA is evolving more and more becoming perimeter based where even the 7 footers can light you up from mid range out to the 3 pt line. Hell if you really think about it our 20 yr old rookie has a better back to the basket game than 90 percent of the NBA big men already. If your name isn't Bogut, Lopez, Gasol or Duncan your either inept in the post or launching jumpers.

I personally wish Dally and Greene could permantently crack the roation, there's really no reason for Donte to not have ANY minutes during games. To see Jermaine Taylor out there instead of Donte is quite stupid, you have to wonder why Donte can't get out there atleast he won't WASTE minutes like Taylor.

The situation with Donte I don't understand at all, and is a prime example of why I don't think Westphal is the coach for this team. He just doesn't seem to be able to relate to this generation of players.

It's one thing of you have a player who is a clear 11th or 12th man, and shouldn't expect to see the floor unless it's garbage time.It's quite another when that player was the starting sf openning night, and had another string of 17 consecutive starts. Westy has already shown he thinks highly enough of Donte to have started him for roughly half the teams games. Now he all the sudden isn't good enough to see the floor? You just told us he was good enough to start.

Defensively I;ve always like Donte, and feel the team also feeds off his energy. Everyone seems to play a little harder and show a little more passion when Donte is out there. That's huge. Brick's numbers also show Donte's influence on the defensive end. Offensively and when it comes to rebounding, I'm disappointed. Donte not only came in out of shape, but I don't see improvement in any one area of his game. Not a better catch and shoot player from 2 or 3. Can't shoot off the dribble. Can't shoot off screens. No improved ball handling. Worse ft shooting. No improvement in consistency. Maybe a slight improvement in passing, as he ahs created some nice scoring opportunities for others. But for the most part on offense, there hasn't been any improvement since he was drafted. I don't see why he couldn't have picked just one thing, and worked on it all summer. Shooting 3's is where I would have started. Not off the dribble, but feet set, on balance, catch and shoot 3's. 1000 per day. All summer. Bump his 3pt% up to 38-40%. If he had simply done that, it would have shown growth, that he has the ability to improve during an offseason, and would have really helped this team. But he hasn't shown any growth whatsoever, and that's a direct reflection of his work ethic.

All that being said, Westy had the confidence to start him, 18 times, and we played better defensively. No question. He deserves playing time, and Westy has completely mismanaged this situation. I don't get the impression Westy had really taken the time to help Donte personally, boost his morale and confidence, and really taken the time to teach him, and help him learn. In a rebuild, you need a coach willing to do just that, and frankly I think Westy has lost Donte and killed his confidence.

 

[rainmaker]

This is exactly right and precisely what I was referencing when I mentioned that our coaching staff is too concerned about meaningless little things when they can be creating all sorts of match up problems for the other team. They would worry about matching up on someone on the perimeter rather than stopping penetration. You play Dalembert and Cousins for 30 minutes against Toronto and Bargani might still get his points but I can guarantee you that DeRozen doesn't get anywhere near as many because his to the basket game would have been slowed down considerably with Dalembert's presence in the paint.

Sometimes coaches are too concerned by these things and are willinglly playing by what the other team is dictacting as opposed to playing your way and making the other team worry about matching up with you!

The best defensive teams lock down the middle and then worry about the perimeter where we seem to prefer the back to front approach. If a team beats you by hot shooting from the perimeter then so be it but lets say in 7 game series, your faith will be decided by your interior defence and not so much what you do on the perimeter. Perimeter D is important but not as important as the interior D. Finally we get a genuine low post defensive anchor and we sit him on the bench because of "match ups"

Like yourself, I really want to see a Dally/Cousins lineup. With all the combination Westy has been willing to try, I can't believe he hasn't given more thought to a Dally/Cousins pairing. Blows my mind. As Cousins continues to mature on the courtt by leaps and bounds, and continues to lose weight, the more I'm convinced it would work well.

I'm afraid we might trade Dally, or lose him, before giving them a chance to play next to eachother. I really think overall our defense and reboundind would improve with the starting unit, and allow us to get out and run more. But really, what's the harm in trying? Westy is willing to start Taylor and Head at times, but won't try to twin tower lineup for 10 games just to see how it would look? Truly blows my mind.

 

[Kingstime]

The game is becoming more perimeter based precisely because good lost post players are becoming as rare as hen's teeth. If you have one, you are on a winner and you should be forcing the other team to beat to your drum as opposed to the other way around. All those teams with perimeter based big man would sell their soul to get a genuine lost post presence. As Toronto if they would trade Bargani for a Gasol or an in prime Duncan and they would sign off on the deal before you could blink!

Just because low post players are rare, it doesn't mean that you should beat to the other team's drums. You should make them pay by your interior presence because that is a hell of a lot tougher to stop than a jump shooting big man.

I fully agree which is why I'm so thankful for big DMC!!

As for Donte there is still hope for him. The best thing he has going for him is the fact that he is so team oriented, you haven't heard a thing from him or his camp about him beng unhappy with his role that seems to change daily, those types of players as long as they stay ready to play almost always find their ways into roations...

 

[Kingstime]

Like yourself, I really want to see a Dally/Cousins lineup. With all the combination Westy has been willing to try, I can't believe he hasn't given more thought to a Dally/Cousins pairing. Blows my mind. As Cousins continues to mature on the courtt by leaps and bowns, and continues to lose weight, the more I'm convinced it would work well.

I'm afraid we might trade Dally, or lose him, before giving them a chance to play next to eachother. I really think overall our defense and reboundind would improve with the starting unit, and allow us to get out and run more. But really, what's the harm in trying? Westy is willing to start Taylor and Head at times, but won't try to twin tower lineup for 10 games just to see how it would look? Truly blows my mind.

Call me crazy but I think out of Landry/Dally, Landrys the only one that goes. GP sees the type of foul troubles/melt downs/rookie issues DMC finds himself in during games and if Dally isn't there back him up this team is legit dead in the water till we find what we have in Whiteside....

 

[Showtime]

One of the reasons I started a stats based thread like this was purposefully to eliminate these sort of dubious statements continuously being made. The numbers do not support your contention.

If the numbers don't support my contention, then show me the stats on how many goaltends Dally has this season. Anybody watching the game knows he costs the team possessions on both ends from his lack of offensive skills and from goaltending.

You like numbers, right? Ok, here's some:

Dally has the second worst usage % on the team, with Antoine Wright being the only guy lower, and yet, he's 4th on the team in TOV's per 36 minutes of play, and leading the team in TOV % at 21.2. He's also shooting a career low .404 FG%. So please, don't tell me he's not hurting this team in other areas. You are taking one single stat, without context, and attempting to build an argument about how valuable he is to the team with his defensive presence. Take a look at the entire picture. Whatever value he might provide with his defense is negated by the flaws and holes in the rest of his game which can have as much negative impact on the team as whatever positive impact his defense and 1.7 blocks per game might have.

And as for your defensive stats, did you even bother to post the W/L records during their > 20 minute games where they have so much impact? Or how about the Home / Road games which can impact defensive performance?

 

[Honolulu Kings Fan]

We're 3-15 with Greene playing more than 18 minutes, and 3-16 with Dalembert playing more than 18 minutes.

Considering we have 8 wins on the season, it appears one of them needs to get 18 minutes a game to give us a better shot at a win in any given game.

 

[Gary]

We're 3-15 with Greene playing more than 18 minutes, and 3-16 with Dalembert playing more than 18 minutes.

exactly.. It's not like they are making us any better than we already are. Dalembert is one dimentional, and Greene just flat out sucks offensively this year. If he was playing offensively like Casspi, and defensively the way he is now then he would be our starting SF.

 

[Bricklayer]

If the numbers don't support my contention, then show me the stats on how many goaltends Dally has this season. Anybody watching the game knows he costs the team possessions on both ends from his lack of offensive skills and from goaltending.

Think about this logically -- I have put forward a series of statistics showing that Samuel Dalembert, on the whole, has a positive impact on the team's defense. Not a small positive impact either. A big one.

Then you come along complaining about goaltending calls. Think about it -- your golatending concern is already covered by my numbers. The Kings overall defense gets MUCH better when he's playing big minutes. And that includes the effects of his shotblocking, his man defense, his rebounding, and yes, his goaltending calls as well. Whatever negative effect the occasional goaltending call he gets has on our defense, it is obviously far overwhelmed by the good things he does on that end of the court, or otherwise the stats wouldn't show a 25pt improvement in shooting percentage, or an 8 point improvement in pts against.

I don't know how this goaltending thing became such a fascination for you, but it really is a very small part of overall defense, and something that any shotblocker is going to pick up quite a few of over the course of the season.

 

[Demarcus Cousins]

How aRe we suppost to know what we have in donte if he never plays??? We only have 8 wins!! Everybody should be playing!

 

['89 Kings Fan]

If the numbers don't support my contention, then show me the stats on how many goaltends Dally has this season. Anybody watching the game knows he costs the team possessions on both ends from his lack of offensive skills and from goaltending.

Season so far:
Blocks: 53
Goaltends: 13 (with four of those being against the clippers for some reason)

 

[Bricklayer]

Season so far:
Blocks: 53
Goaltends: 13 (with four of those being against the clippers for some reason)

ooh, ooh -- where'd you get those numbers? You didn't actually go through every pay by play and count them up did you?