The 2015 KF.com Draft Big Board Part 2: Kings' Range
- Thread starter Capt. Factorial
- Start date
Mass
Starter
If WCS is there, I want us to draft him and run away. I have a great feeling about this guy, the same feeling I had about Boogie the year we drafted him. Not saying WCS is as good as DeMarcus, but I believe he can be a special player and he is exactly what we need.
He will be an elite defender and won't be a DeAndre on the offensive end. I believe he can develop a good mid range shot. His shooting motion is not bad at all for a guy that big.
I don't care about the stress fracture, Blake Griffin lost his first year in the league because of a stress fracture. Looks like he's doing pretty good anyways.
Let's just hope nobody picks him in the top 5.
He will be an elite defender and won't be a DeAndre on the offensive end. I believe he can develop a good mid range shot. His shooting motion is not bad at all for a guy that big.
I don't care about the stress fracture, Blake Griffin lost his first year in the league because of a stress fracture. Looks like he's doing pretty good anyways.
Let's just hope nobody picks him in the top 5.
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ockingsfan
Starter
The thing about rookies are that guards tend to make more of an immediate impact. Big men take time to develop.
If Mudiay drops to us, I think you have to take him. He would give the Kings an inside-outside combo with DMC.
The Kings need balance. They have a monster in the front court, now they need a star in the backcourt.
Every Shaq needs a Kobe. Every Duncan needs a Parker/Ginobli. Every Kobe needs a Pau.
If a stud PG is available at the #6 (Muniday or Russle) you have to take him.
If they are gone, I am okay with taking WCS at #6 or trading the pick for a "Big 3" type player.
Eh, you can't discount Jordan's offensive impact. 11 PPG on 63% TS with historically bad FT shooting and 5 ORB/game. We can only hope WCS ends up the same vein as Chandler and Jordan; dudes who never touch/shoot the ball, but score on insane efficiency when they do. I think Noel will be in that group soon enough; his issue is he's being tasked with way too much offensive responsibility on the Sixers team, thus his efficiency suffers.
Mike
Bench
If Mudiay falls to us at #6, then that would be a great scenario . Like you say, potentially, Mudiay and McLemore as a backcourt pairing could be special.
Problem is, I'm not sure the two PGs get past the 76ers and Knicks. If the order had stayed as it was before the lottery, maybe it could have happened if the Lakers decided to go for Winslow because they like what they've got in Clarkson, and the Magic pass for Johnson/Hezonja/Porzingis because they've got Payton. But with the new order, I think Towns (#1), Okafor (#2), Russel (#3), and Mudiay (#4) is pretty much set in stone. But if we are lucky maybe the 76ers or Knicks fall in love with one of the forwards.
That said, if he falls - great - but if he doesn't, I'd be more than happy to see us draft WCS.
Mass
Starter
It's true, but Jordan si a center and WCS should be a PF, at least on offense. I want DMC to play inside, and having a guy like WCS who can hit the mid range shot is gold. When I said he won't be a deandre on the offensive end I meant that he should be able to develop some offensive game, Jordan can't hit a shot from 3 feet. He only dunks, and that's it. That's why I don't think guys like Jordan or Chandler are great fit next to DeMarcus. They have to play inside, so there won't be enough room for DMC. Otherwise, the man guarding them would double DMC all the time. For me the best fit for us would be a guy like Ibaka.
I think majority of people still hasn't understood, just how mobile WCS is - he is half a step quicker Giannis. With much worse ballhandling, of course.
Discard all the plays, where advanced dribbling or pullup shooting are involved, and you see, what WCS offense will be early on:
Discard all the plays, where advanced dribbling or pullup shooting are involved, and you see, what WCS offense will be early on:
K
KingMilz
Guest
If we draft WCS than we have to bring Miller back....Jesus Christ the amount of lob dunks between those two next season will be insane hopefully WCS has a big appetite cause he's going to be getting feed.
Question I've never watched a full game of WCS what is his bball IQ like is it better than say DJ?
Question I've never watched a full game of WCS what is his bball IQ like is it better than say DJ?
ParniValjak
All-Star
We are not after him for his offense. We like him because he is a defensive anchor who improves sides significantly on the defensive end.
I was responding to
That middle area about being bumped is what separates WCS from almost all NBA bigs - he is so quick, that much bigger chunk of rotations will just be too late. Also just stationing him on the weak side close to the basket likely forces his defender to stay really close.
P.S. Wouldn't mind adding Ibaka though.
WCS is an excellent cutter, mostly because his decision-making tree is pretty simple: set screen; set screen; see open path to the basket? cut; bumped and cut is unsuccessful? set screen; set screen; shot is in the air? move towards rebound area; defense rebounded the ball? run back.
That middle area about being bumped is what separates WCS from almost all NBA bigs - he is so quick, that much bigger chunk of rotations will just be too late. Also just stationing him on the weak side close to the basket likely forces his defender to stay really close.
P.S. Wouldn't mind adding Ibaka though.
There are three guys that I can't see falling to the Kings: Okafor, Russell and Towns. KAT is just too talented and I can't see either Russell or Okafor getting past the Knicks. But Mudiay could.
Minnesota takes Towns
The Lakers take Okafor
The Sixers take Russell
Then the Knicks see Mudiay as not being a great fit for the triangle or a great compliment to Carmelo and go after WCS or swing for the fences with Porzingis (more likely)
Then Orlando goes after Winslow, WCS or Porzingis because they already have Payton and Oladipo dropping Mudiay to 6th.
In fact, I think if the Kings keep the sixth pick our draft options are essentially going to be WCS, Mudiay or Porzingis. I like Winslow (and Johnson) but neither fills a need and Hezonja doesn't bring anything different than Ben/Nik and isn't any more NBA ready.
Overall I definitely believe that if you think there's a potential star you take that guy over a high functioning role player. But I'm not sure who that would be.
The potential stars I see are Mudiay, Johnson, and Turner and I'll tell you why:
(1) Mudiay: Elite size and strength at the PG position combined with good ball skills and court vision. He can get into the paint whenever he wants (though he currently has some trouble finishing when he gets there) and he does a good job of delivering the ball to his teammates when they're open. He's also quicker with the ball than you'd expect for a guy his size and makes good decisions in the open court. With the PG position trending bigger and more athletic, he's ready to match up against the leaders at his position and I think his shooting issues are correctable. Playing a year in China didn't get him a lot of pre-draft exposure, but it did prepare him for the experience of playing professionally better than any college program would have. It's difficult for me to imagine a scenario where he's not at least a solid NBA starter. With DeMarcus in the post and Rudy on the wing, defenses won't be able to key on him which means he'll have plenty of space to work with and he can slowly build the scoring aspects of his game without pressure to be a #1 option.
(2) Johnson: It was disappointing that he measured about 2 inches shorter than expected, it puts him on the small side for SF which is his more natural position but this is where I remember that size is just one small piece of the overall puzzle. He does have a 7 foot wingspan, very good lateral quickness, and above average strength. The biggest reason I'm hoping we draft Johnson is that I watch him play and he already has NBA moves. He gets to the basket with hesitation dribbles or creates step back jumpers, he boxes out and creates second chance points, his spot up jumper looks really good to me and improved throughout the course of the year. For a first year player, he already does a great job of drawing contact and getting to the line. His awareness as a defender is superb. I often saw him run halfway across the court to make plays that lesser defenders wouldn't even think to make. All of these areas need refinement, but the foundation is there for a complete wing player. And if he continues to add muscle to his already well developed frame, all of the skills I mentioned become that much more dangerous. Basically, I think he's Jimmy Butler with a stronger frame and better off ball defense. That's a player I find a spot for on my team.
(3) Turner: He didn't have a great year at Texas, but he has everything you want in a big man prospect. Size? He's 6'11" with an enormous 9'4" standing reach. Ball skills? He can both handle the ball and shoot the jumper well enough to be a threat on pick and rolls. He can spot up for corner threes. In the post he's got a hook shot and a turnaround jumper that he didn't showcase much in college, but if you go back to AAU and HS all star games, those skills are there. What he'll need to work on is footwork and counter moves, but who better to learn those from than DeMarcus? Defensively he's got length and timing which is all you need to block shots, which he did this year as well as anyone in college BB. He often takes himself out of plays though with poor positioning which is something I'd hope George Karl's staff can help him with. Everyone knows Towns and Okafor have star potential. I don't think Turner is that far behind them. He looks a little lost at times on the court but he's a smart, articulate kid and I think he's coachable. And of course you can't teach size.
There are other players I like, but this is my wishlist at #6 barring some kind of miraculous Karl Towns or D'Angelo Russell freefall.
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The Kings have passed on tall, athletic PGs in favor of other positions and if Mudiay drops to them, they may want to take him. You take WCS because of his potential elite defense and athleticism as a 7'0". You take Mudiay because of his ability and his size........maybe you take Porzingas because of the unique skill set but I think it's a gamble and he's skinny....start drafting guys who can play AND stand out athletically.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
You bring up something that hasn't been talked about much: How does JT fit into the WCS picture? If WCS is drafted, how many minutes is he taking from Jason Thompson? And for every minute he does play in the place of Thompson what are you getting net-net? Are you getting more blocks? Probably. More weak side defense? Probably. Are you getting more one on one defense? Probably not. More rebounds? Doubtful. More offense? Definitely not. So when you stack the two sides up against each other, whet does that leave you with?
And if WCS is coming off the bench, is that the firepower you want to have from the bench? If the much tarred and feather bench was the main reason behind many of the Kings losses last year, how would WCS make that bench more effective?
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Part of why I'm not that upset with the Kings falling to #6 is that I think they will either have WCS land in their lap and/or have their choice of 2 or 3 guys who might have star potential. Mudiay would make that list. So would Johnson. Turner I can't agree with. I look at him and he's simply not fluid enough for me. His running, his footwork, his wind up on his shot - it's a lot of the same issues I has with Vonleh last year.
So who else could potentially be a star? Porzingis has boom or bust written all over him. He could be a combination of Kirilenko and Rik Smits or he could be Yi Jianlian. I'm not on the Kelly Oubre or Kevin Looney bandwagons but both have a lot of raw tools that could give them a Paul George like career arc if somehow they put it all together. Chris McCullough is another high risk/high reward guy.
Odds are that one of Towns, Okafor, Russell and Mudiay will be a bust. Even better odds that the second or third best player from this draft is taken outside the top 10.
To me Cauley-Stein fills an obvious need and is about as safe a pick (assuming good health) as is possible with the draft. But almost certainly there's a player that would give the Kings a much better return on investment with the sixth pick. Is our front office capable of figuring out who that is? We'll see.
ockingsfan
Starter
I hope you are right. If Mudiay falls to us, it would solve a lot of problems.
Mudiay should be able to contribute as a rookie immediately. He would also allow us to move DC to a backup role and we would have a pretty good 3 guard rotation with Ben/Mudiay/DC.
This allows us to go hard after a power forward like Amir Johnson, who can fit in next to DMC and contribute right away. If we can sign him to a 4 year $36mil contract, that would allow us to keep JT as an ideal 3rd big.
PF Johnson / JT / Landry
SF Gay / Casspi
C DMC / JT/ Moreland
SG McClemore / Stauskas / McCallum
PG Mudiay / Collison / Miller
I think we could compete for a playoffs spot with this team and we would have good depth.
I'd like to hear that answer too. But I'm starting to feel like Mudiay may slide.
As for Jason Thompson, to start the season I'm not sure anything would change for JT if WCS were drafted. He'd likely begin the season as the starter at PF unless Karl moves Gay to that spot. Long term it would likely mean Thompson gets moved to the first big off the bench, spelling both Boogie and Cauley-Stein.
As for WCS vs Jason Thompson if you look at things just in terms of individual stats you probably would think it's more or less a wash. Probably slightly more blocks and steals, probably fewer rebounds etc. But I'm not so sure Cauley-Stein would provide less offense. After all JT gave the Kings 6 points on 47% shooting in 25 minutes this season. I'd expect WCS to shoot a higher percentage and put up the same points on fewer shots just based on crashing the boards and getting out in transition.
But beyond individual stats, where you'd see a HUGE difference is in the team's pick and roll defense. And that's regardless of how Karl wants to play PnRs. If they want to down then WCS can protect a lot of ground baseline with Cousins helping or vice versa. If they show then WCS has the lateral quickness to actually contain guards and still get back to his man. If they switch you've got a guy who can again hold his own (unlikely as you don't want Collison or McLemore/Stauskas on a big) and if they blitz then you have a very long player denying the pass while still having Cousins as a defensive anchor down low.
Lots of options. Which is especially good for a Kings team that has been awful against the pick and roll for years.
And more than that, he's a guy who played in the same sort of dribble drive offense that Karl is going to install and who makes much better decisions both defensively and with the ball on offense than Jason Thompson.
sidney
Starter
It's difficult to get excited about Amir Johnson. He's not that good
What are peoples thoughts on Stanley Johnson? Just rewatched a couple of his games, and the dude really is impressive. He stands out on both ends and isn't one of those top players who disappears in games. He gets after it on the defensive end and really reminds me of a bigger Tyreke with his tendency to just bully his way to the rim. Especially if we're going to experiment with Rudy at the 4, grabbing a big strong SF like Johnson is certainly the style you want
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
That's one thing that's intriguing about Porzingis, he has the tools to be a PF version of AK on the defensive end. Does he realize that? Who the hell knows. He'd definitely be a risk but a PF version of AK with more shot blocking ability and his athleticism really has my attention, especially with the ability to spread the floor as we're arguably the worst 3pt shooting team and that kills us.
Deep down however I'm hoping for Mudiay. Star potential on both ends at PG is extremely valuable in the modern day NBA given the current defensive rules on the perimeter. I put a premium on putting a star PG next to Cuz.
But this draft is odd. I don't remember the last time at 6 that there were so many potential high end players. It's a dilemna. WCS might help more now but he projects to be a role player while a few others project have a much higher ceiling. Do you go role player who can help more immediately or go star potential? We could be killing ourselves a couple years from now for going with the safer pick. Or not. But as I just posted elsewhere I've been focused on free agency to plug immediate holes so I'm more willing to go with star potential and take that risk. Building around Cuz and making a playoff push wasn't going to come through the draft.
Well. I've been a WCS fan for a couple of years so he's my top choice. Cauley-Stein is one of the players in the draft that I'm most confident will have a good NBA career. I feel he's the surest thing outside of the top 3.
Looking at him play, he'll have to work on some things but the issues don't seem so major that the goods won't come to fruition. Eventually, he'll develop an outside jumper. He's already good at running the floor. Further coaching will help him be even better at finding spots on the roll, moving to open space and making himself open for lobs. Defensively, he's already solid.
He can top out as a Tyson Chandler with a face up jumper. He might middle out as a Deandre Jordan.
On a related note, I expect the Pacers to offer a S&T of Hibbert to the Kings for their 6th spot. Bird wants WCS. It becomes a question of how quickly you want to advance and how you want to advance.
Looking at him play, he'll have to work on some things but the issues don't seem so major that the goods won't come to fruition. Eventually, he'll develop an outside jumper. He's already good at running the floor. Further coaching will help him be even better at finding spots on the roll, moving to open space and making himself open for lobs. Defensively, he's already solid.
He can top out as a Tyson Chandler with a face up jumper. He might middle out as a Deandre Jordan.
On a related note, I expect the Pacers to offer a S&T of Hibbert to the Kings for their 6th spot. Bird wants WCS. It becomes a question of how quickly you want to advance and how you want to advance.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Derek Bodner: Everyone I've talked to tonight seems like it's a foregone conclusion that the #sixers go Russell at 3 if he's available. Almost too obvious
Where are you seeing that on realgm? I saw an article saying that the Knicks were very open to trading the 4th pick but nothing on the Kings.
randymoss1881
Starter
Knicks would be morons to not draft Mudiya. You can draft him and trade him to Denver for Lawson and there pick and still get Winslow or Johnson.
But anyway WCS defense will be elite. Do you guys remember how great Bosh was vs the pick and roll with his hedges well WCS is quicker and longer than bosh. He should be able to blow up pick and rolls the way bosh used to that alone is elite.
Chad Ford
(1:28 PM)
I keep hearing that the two teams highest on Casely-Stein are the Kings and the Pacers. So, I think that's the way they would go. Cauley-Stein is largely seen by NBA guys as an immediate impact player because they feel he can go out and defend right now. That's what the Kings are looking for. I think Porzingis has a higher upside because of his offensive game, but he's further away from impacting a game in the first year than WCS.
But anyway WCS defense will be elite. Do you guys remember how great Bosh was vs the pick and roll with his hedges well WCS is quicker and longer than bosh. He should be able to blow up pick and rolls the way bosh used to that alone is elite.
Chad Ford
(1:28 PM)
I keep hearing that the two teams highest on Casely-Stein are the Kings and the Pacers. So, I think that's the way they would go. Cauley-Stein is largely seen by NBA guys as an immediate impact player because they feel he can go out and defend right now. That's what the Kings are looking for. I think Porzingis has a higher upside because of his offensive game, but he's further away from impacting a game in the first year than WCS.
All this talk about possibly trading the pick got me wondering who exactly has been drafted in the 6th spot over the years. Here are the players drafted #6 the past 10 years:
2014: Marcus Smart
2013: Nerlens Noel
2012: Damian Lillard
2011: Jan Vesely
2010: Ekpe Udoh
2009: Jonny Flynn
2008: Danilo Gallinari
2007: Yi Jianlian
2006: Brandon Roy
2005: Martell Webster
As you can see, it was a mixed bag but there were at least 2 stars in there (Roy and Lillard). The jury is still out on Smart and Noel.
Here are some notables drafted after the 6th spot in the last 10 years:
Klay Thompson (2011 — 11th)
Leonard (2011 - 15th)
Paul George (2010 - 10th)
Curry (2009 - 7th)
DeRozan (2009 - 9th)
Holiday (2009 - 17th)
Teague (2009 - 19th)
B.Lopez (2008 - 10th)
Noah (2007 - 9th)
M. Gasol (2007 - 48th)
Gay (2006 - 8th)
Rondo (2006 - 21st)
Granger (2005 - 17th)
D. Lee (2005 - 30th)
It's very possible to get an All-Star drafting 6th, but what that means in terms of trade value, I'm not sure.
2014: Marcus Smart
2013: Nerlens Noel
2012: Damian Lillard
2011: Jan Vesely
2010: Ekpe Udoh
2009: Jonny Flynn
2008: Danilo Gallinari
2007: Yi Jianlian
2006: Brandon Roy
2005: Martell Webster
As you can see, it was a mixed bag but there were at least 2 stars in there (Roy and Lillard). The jury is still out on Smart and Noel.
Here are some notables drafted after the 6th spot in the last 10 years:
Klay Thompson (2011 — 11th)
Leonard (2011 - 15th)
Paul George (2010 - 10th)
Curry (2009 - 7th)
DeRozan (2009 - 9th)
Holiday (2009 - 17th)
Teague (2009 - 19th)
B.Lopez (2008 - 10th)
Noah (2007 - 9th)
M. Gasol (2007 - 48th)
Gay (2006 - 8th)
Rondo (2006 - 21st)
Granger (2005 - 17th)
D. Lee (2005 - 30th)
It's very possible to get an All-Star drafting 6th, but what that means in terms of trade value, I'm not sure.
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No chance I'd trade the 6th pick for Hibbert. I'd rather have WCS who could be better than him and cheaper.
gunks
Hall of Famer
I swear it was just on the wiretap, they may have taken it down? I should have embedded a link in my original post.
Anyways...moot point now. I'm going to delete my post to avoid further confusion.
