Steve Kerr on Vlade
- Thread starter coolhandluke
- Start date
VF21 said:
I think Lamar Odom is simply trying to stir the pot. He's picked up the pointy stick and he's jabbing us, probably because things are so boring on Laker boards right now.
To imply that we didn't appreciate Vlade or what he did for our franchise is specious at best and more likely minor trolling.
To imply that we didn't appreciate Vlade or what he did for our franchise is specious at best and more likely minor trolling.
HE MISSED!!!!!!
VF21 said:
I think Lamar Odom is simply trying to stir the pot. He's picked up the pointy stick and he's jabbing us, probably because things are so boring on Laker boards right now.
To imply that we didn't appreciate Vlade or what he did for our franchise is specious at best and more likely minor trolling.
To imply that we didn't appreciate Vlade or what he did for our franchise is specious at best and more likely minor trolling.
Oddly enough, the other day when I picked my daughter up from school, the little boy across the street (wearing a, you guessed it, Kobe jersey) was throwing this little kitten into a wading pool they had in the front yard. To be fair, he was not actually trying to drown the kitten, just seemed wildly amused that the kitten hated the water and kept jumping out madder and madder.
The Vlade situation was handled with class by the Kings organization. They didn't have to offer him anything. Everybody knows what the Kings weaknesses are, and re-signing Vlade wasn't going to address those issues. The organization offered him a respectable contract that would've kept him in the city that loved him for another year- possibly two- while still leaving them flexibility and room to maneuver.
Love/Respect... this is the organization that traded him away to a team across the country. The idea traumatized him so much he threatened to retire. After all these years they flash a couple the dollar signs and that’s love and respect. At least in Sac we allowed him options instead of shooing him away and uprooting him from his home.
Love/Respect... this is the organization that traded him away to a team across the country. The idea traumatized him so much he threatened to retire. After all these years they flash a couple the dollar signs and that’s love and respect. At least in Sac we allowed him options instead of shooing him away and uprooting him from his home.
Brad miller averaged 10 rebounds last year playing 36.4 minutes a game = rebound per 3.64 minute
Chris webber averaged 8.7 r playing 36.1 minutes last year = rebound per 4.15 min
Vlade averaged 5.7 rebounds a game playing 28.6 min a game = rebound per 5 minutes
And you replaced him with 7.4 rebounds in 27.6 minutes
Kings did have the rebounding problem for the past few years and it was the teams fault and not just vlades, other teams send their guards to help out and sometimes even the SF collect more rebounds, whereas the kings tend to run like crazy and hence fewer rebounds. But if you are going to base your assessment on the rebounds he pulled down in the playoffs then good luck to you.
I am just sick of many kings fans dissing the players and undervaluing them once they leave the kings and overvaluing people when they come to the kings. Its better to have a fair assessment on the players whether they are with the kings are not. Will Vlade ever be the vlade of yesterday no and that applies to all the players like say webb. The kings are pinning their hopes on webb and he has a great history on and off the court to be a great contributor.
Maybe i should take a few days break untill this vlade topic disappears
Chris webber averaged 8.7 r playing 36.1 minutes last year = rebound per 4.15 min
Vlade averaged 5.7 rebounds a game playing 28.6 min a game = rebound per 5 minutes
And you replaced him with 7.4 rebounds in 27.6 minutes
Kings did have the rebounding problem for the past few years and it was the teams fault and not just vlades, other teams send their guards to help out and sometimes even the SF collect more rebounds, whereas the kings tend to run like crazy and hence fewer rebounds. But if you are going to base your assessment on the rebounds he pulled down in the playoffs then good luck to you.
I am just sick of many kings fans dissing the players and undervaluing them once they leave the kings and overvaluing people when they come to the kings. Its better to have a fair assessment on the players whether they are with the kings are not. Will Vlade ever be the vlade of yesterday no and that applies to all the players like say webb. The kings are pinning their hopes on webb and he has a great history on and off the court to be a great contributor.
Maybe i should take a few days break untill this vlade topic disappears
The message was that they wanted him to stay, but there were other concerns that needed to be addressed, also.
I think most Kings fan has, thus the whole "undervaluing" him that has the Vlade fans riled up. I personally have moved on... I mean Vlade who? Is he that old, chain smoking center the Lakers signed to calm the locker room and give pep talks to Kobes teammates?
Seriously, if Vlade had resigned, you'd have fans complaining about how it was a bad move to re-sign Vlade and how we should've used the money on somebody else.
I think most Kings fan has, thus the whole "undervaluing" him that has the Vlade fans riled up. I personally have moved on... I mean Vlade who? Is he that old, chain smoking center the Lakers signed to calm the locker room and give pep talks to Kobes teammates?
Seriously, if Vlade had resigned, you'd have fans complaining about how it was a bad move to re-sign Vlade and how we should've used the money on somebody else.
You realize that that 7.4rpb belongs to one of the best per minute rebounders in the league right?
Everyone gets old. When they get old, inevitably their playing ability slips. Just the way life is. In the last couple of years age has obviously caught up to Vlade. People had been trying to count him out for years before that because he always dragged himself around like a senior citizen, but the slip didn't occur until 02-03. His rebounding fell off noticably, and he began to do the old man good night/bad night thing where on certain nights he just did not have anything to offer. Reminded me a bit of watching old Kareem actually. could still be great on any given night, but no longer consistently. And then last year the bottom fell out of his legs. Rebounding totally collapsed, help defense slipped badly -- couldn't intimidate anyone. And even the area where he formerly had been able to maintain his level, his post offense, now began to suffer as he couldn't get over the rim and seemed off balance a lot.
Its not going to get any better -- age is a one way street. Its not like an injury which you can recover from. And if his late season debut as a limited minute bench player is any indication, he really wasn't going to be very useful in that role to the Kings (which is no surprise -- the best bench players are high energy guys or impact thugs), or likely to any team. And so the Lakers have themselves the same quandry we did -- play Vlade big minutes to get what you can out of him and benefit from his bball I.Q., but have to deal with his inability to rebound or defend effectively at this point, or play Vlade limited minutes to try to benefit from his off court presence and conserve his on court energy, and likely find out as we did that he needs to play long stretches to get into the flow and be effective doing the things he can still do. And either way they choose to go, they do not have the advantage we did of always having an All Star big man starting next to him to pick up the slack.
Everyone gets old. When they get old, inevitably their playing ability slips. Just the way life is. In the last couple of years age has obviously caught up to Vlade. People had been trying to count him out for years before that because he always dragged himself around like a senior citizen, but the slip didn't occur until 02-03. His rebounding fell off noticably, and he began to do the old man good night/bad night thing where on certain nights he just did not have anything to offer. Reminded me a bit of watching old Kareem actually. could still be great on any given night, but no longer consistently. And then last year the bottom fell out of his legs. Rebounding totally collapsed, help defense slipped badly -- couldn't intimidate anyone. And even the area where he formerly had been able to maintain his level, his post offense, now began to suffer as he couldn't get over the rim and seemed off balance a lot.
Its not going to get any better -- age is a one way street. Its not like an injury which you can recover from. And if his late season debut as a limited minute bench player is any indication, he really wasn't going to be very useful in that role to the Kings (which is no surprise -- the best bench players are high energy guys or impact thugs), or likely to any team. And so the Lakers have themselves the same quandry we did -- play Vlade big minutes to get what you can out of him and benefit from his bball I.Q., but have to deal with his inability to rebound or defend effectively at this point, or play Vlade limited minutes to try to benefit from his off court presence and conserve his on court energy, and likely find out as we did that he needs to play long stretches to get into the flow and be effective doing the things he can still do. And either way they choose to go, they do not have the advantage we did of always having an All Star big man starting next to him to pick up the slack.
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First off, I never said it was entirely Vlade's fault. Secondly, running like crazy, as you put it, doesn't result in less rebounds, in fact, the speed of the game means more possessions, hence the opportunity for more boards, unless both teams are shooting lights out. Lastly, I am not basing my assesment on Vlades waning rebounding prowess on the playoffs, but rather on the fact that his numbers in that department have been gradually dwindling over the last 3 years, hitting an all time low (for him) last season.
Also, once again, I am not trying to bash Vlade. I am merely pointing out where I had some concerns about him, which, incidently are the same concerns I had when he was a King.
Vlade is a class act, I wish him all the best, even if he is a laker again
Also, once again, I am not trying to bash Vlade. I am merely pointing out where I had some concerns about him, which, incidently are the same concerns I had when he was a King.
Vlade is a class act, I wish him all the best, even if he is a laker again
Well when the team runs a lot, that means the guards and the small forward take off while the shot is in the air, which leaves the big men to take care of the rebound. Other teams try to help out in that regard and if you look at the rebounding stats for any of the kings players they are lesser than most of the other teams average.
While scoring is the name of the game, defense and rebouding make it easier when the whole team tries to do that, and the kings as a team dont do that and i dont think its just the big men's fault for the rebouding woes. Offcourse when your big men cant jump its a different problem, but teams try to help out in that regard by boxing out and helping, whereas the kings try to run everytime. Why is peja averaging only about 5 rebounds, whereas i suppose the average could be around 7 or 8 for the minutes he plays.
While scoring is the name of the game, defense and rebouding make it easier when the whole team tries to do that, and the kings as a team dont do that and i dont think its just the big men's fault for the rebouding woes. Offcourse when your big men cant jump its a different problem, but teams try to help out in that regard by boxing out and helping, whereas the kings try to run everytime. Why is peja averaging only about 5 rebounds, whereas i suppose the average could be around 7 or 8 for the minutes he plays.
kingskings! said:
and the Vlade bashing continues...
Do I believe Kerr's article? No. But not because I dismiss Vlade's value but because I don't believe that anyone can derail the Kobe train. Kobe's like a hurricane gathering power offshore, he's ditched Shaq and Phil and Dr. Buss continues to feed his ego (not to mention he's dusting his hands of his his former legal troubles)....he's just gathering strength to become the one man wrecking crew of the Lakers. I really don't hope I'm wrong on this one, the Lakers are scum in my totally nonbiased opinion.
But, once again, I do have to wonder why Vlade would flee the disharmony in Sac. for the disharmony in L.A. Please don't respond with $$$ answers. Yes, he took L.A.'s money as he should have. The Kings org. dissed him in my opinion. But,if previous contract reports are true, then the Kings paid Ostertag more than the Lakes paid Vlade, so why wasn't the money there for Vlade? One more year (maybe two) of playing and then into coaching...
Oh, hell. I'm beating the dead horse again...never mind..
Just a suggestion.....please post the proscribed author list so I'll know which NBA writers I'm allowed to read and believe, which I'm allowed to read but make fun of, and which ones I should never read. It would make things so much easier for us newbies. Thanks.
KK!
Do I believe Kerr's article? No. But not because I dismiss Vlade's value but because I don't believe that anyone can derail the Kobe train. Kobe's like a hurricane gathering power offshore, he's ditched Shaq and Phil and Dr. Buss continues to feed his ego (not to mention he's dusting his hands of his his former legal troubles)....he's just gathering strength to become the one man wrecking crew of the Lakers. I really don't hope I'm wrong on this one, the Lakers are scum in my totally nonbiased opinion.
But, once again, I do have to wonder why Vlade would flee the disharmony in Sac. for the disharmony in L.A. Please don't respond with $$$ answers. Yes, he took L.A.'s money as he should have. The Kings org. dissed him in my opinion. But,if previous contract reports are true, then the Kings paid Ostertag more than the Lakes paid Vlade, so why wasn't the money there for Vlade? One more year (maybe two) of playing and then into coaching...
Oh, hell. I'm beating the dead horse again...never mind..
Just a suggestion.....please post the proscribed author list so I'll know which NBA writers I'm allowed to read and believe, which I'm allowed to read but make fun of, and which ones I should never read. It would make things so much easier for us newbies. Thanks.
KK!
Lakers fan here....I am not talking smack but I have to ask why you feel that the lakers are "scum" for making roster moves when you freely admit that your own team released Vlade in a less then desirable fashion....
If it is because we are a rival team then thats cool....I understand...but if it is something deeper then that then you might want to look at all the facts of the lakers releases (if you want to draw a informed conclusion)
- The lakers released Shaq Onield because quite frankley he is getting older while Kobe is in his prime, he comes into camp out of shape worse and worse every year (and did it this year with the Heat) has openly feuded to the point where it was only a matter of time before the duo was split up, and quite frankly....the game is changing to a point where Shaq....with his age and declining production, is not suited to be dominate anymore (or at least less dominate) the lakers didnt make the right move...they made the ONLY move they could.....trade Shaq while they could still get something for him....Odom, Butler, Grant, and a 1st isn't a bad deal.
- As far as Phil goes it was simply time for him to leave....simple as that....he suited the team when we had young stars mixed with veteran talent and his Championship rings made players listen......but just like any other coach his effect wore off over time....this is now a young run and gun that requires a new coach....it will be a Kobe led team but THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN EVENTUALLY.....
By the way...I just dont understand the Kobe hate as a player......he is going to be the primary option but he DOES share the ball......he had something like 6 assists in the last game....Kobe makes CONCERTED efforts to get his teamates involved early.....if they dont hit those shots that is not his fault
Kobe Bryant....say what you want about him as a person...as a player he is very misunderstood
1. We don't "freely admit" our team released Vlade "in a less than desirable fashion."
2. The Lakers didn't release Shaq of their own volition. He demanded a trade. You must have missed it. It was in all the papers.
You are, in case you didn't notice, on a Kings board. We're going to comment a lot about the Lakers FROM OUR VIEWPOINT, just as you make a lot of comments about the Kings on your Laker board. We'll probably never see eye to eye on things because we're viewing them from different sides of the coin.
Kobe is misunderstood? Ohh. Poor baby. Kobe hate? Please.
2. The Lakers didn't release Shaq of their own volition. He demanded a trade. You must have missed it. It was in all the papers.
You are, in case you didn't notice, on a Kings board. We're going to comment a lot about the Lakers FROM OUR VIEWPOINT, just as you make a lot of comments about the Kings on your Laker board. We'll probably never see eye to eye on things because we're viewing them from different sides of the coin.
Kobe is misunderstood? Ohh. Poor baby. Kobe hate? Please.
It's actually a little more complicated than that. His contract extension talks were pulled off the table in Feb, most likely a snap decision by Buss because of his souring relationship with Kobe and his incurable enabling of Shaq.
That's true, but even a faction of Lakers fans misunderstand his motives too.
That's true, but even a faction of Lakers fans misunderstand his motives too.
Gargy - You've been here a long time and I respect you. I'm always amused by the "new" Laker fans who show up when our two teams are about to play... I found it interesting that if John from Hemet didn't once mention the trade demand.
And the little dig about us needing to look at the facts more if we want to make informed conclusions? I remember this poster from the LAST time he was here.
And the little dig about us needing to look at the facts more if we want to make informed conclusions? I remember this poster from the LAST time he was here.
VF21 said:
Gargy - You've been here a long time and I respect you. I'm always amused by the "new" Laker fans who show up when our two teams are about to play... I found it interesting that if John from Hemet didn't once mention the trade demand.
And the little dig about us needing to look at the facts more if we want to make informed conclusions? I remember this poster from the LAST time he was here.
And the little dig about us needing to look at the facts more if we want to make informed conclusions? I remember this poster from the LAST time he was here.
I haven't been on this board for a long long time.....and even when I was here last I treated it with respect
You are creating animosity where none exists
Considering what Vlade has done for the Kings to be let go and replaced with a lesser player for more money (is this not correct?) would have to be less desirable to Vlade...wouldn't you say?
Shaq was going to be traded no matter what....what he did was start demanding a trade to a. drive down his value to the lakers and b. get the process moving faster. I wish Shaq well as long as he is not playing us.
I realize I am on a Kings board and therefore treading lightly....I understand that the viewpoint isn't going to be pro lakers and accept that but what is with the animosity towards a new guy from a friggen moderator?
Shaq was going to be traded no matter what....what he did was start demanding a trade to a. drive down his value to the lakers and b. get the process moving faster. I wish Shaq well as long as he is not playing us.
I realize I am on a Kings board and therefore treading lightly....I understand that the viewpoint isn't going to be pro lakers and accept that but what is with the animosity towards a new guy from a friggen moderator?
Sorry about the animosity.
Vlade wasn't let go. He chose to leave. You don't think we suffered over that? We adore Vlade - but we knew the time was going to come when he would be taking a back seat to Miller. It was his choice to go with the money. He could have accepted less money to stay with the team he had helped build; the fans who had elevated him to something close to the love he felt from Serbian fans; the city that supported every thing he did both on and off the court.
It was Vlade's choice. He made the choice to go with the money. We had to get a back-up center. We got the best one available since Vlade was gone.
As far as Shaq goes, my take was that you were saying it was all the decision of the team to let him go. I was pointing out that he made it clear some choices would have to be made.
We have a number of Laker fans who post here on a regular basis. One thing that seems to separate them from the ones who only show up when our two teams are about to meet is they realize perceptions are different and they don't belabor those points where we'll never agree.
Vlade wasn't let go. He chose to leave. You don't think we suffered over that? We adore Vlade - but we knew the time was going to come when he would be taking a back seat to Miller. It was his choice to go with the money. He could have accepted less money to stay with the team he had helped build; the fans who had elevated him to something close to the love he felt from Serbian fans; the city that supported every thing he did both on and off the court.
It was Vlade's choice. He made the choice to go with the money. We had to get a back-up center. We got the best one available since Vlade was gone.
As far as Shaq goes, my take was that you were saying it was all the decision of the team to let him go. I was pointing out that he made it clear some choices would have to be made.
We have a number of Laker fans who post here on a regular basis. One thing that seems to separate them from the ones who only show up when our two teams are about to meet is they realize perceptions are different and they don't belabor those points where we'll never agree.
No, that is about right with Peja. He's always been more interested in leaking out on the break than crashing the boards. VERY annoying habit since at his size he could/should be one of the best SF rebounders in the game.
On the other hand, Doug's rebounding has always been strong for a guard. Bibby's a shrug for a PG, and Bobby's exceptional for a PG, still pretty good if you call him an OG.
And here's the thing, NONE of those guys have changed. We were never a dominant rebounding team, but in our top years we were respectable. So what changed? Peja is still Peja. Bobby still Bobby. Bibby still Bibby. Its not the little guys. And last year Miller stepped right in and put up Webb like rebounding numbers at the PF.
Biggest three problems in recent years:
1) Vlade has fallen off sharply. Argue all you want, but we lost 2.5-3rebs at that position in under 3 years. From a solid 8.4rebs in 30min in '02 to a weak 5.7rebs in 29min in '04.
2) Last year we went from Keon/Pollard off the bench to Massenberg/Songaila. Smaller players, lesser rebounders.
3) Last year we went from Hedo/JJ off the bench to Anthony Peeler. Again a much smaller player, and weaker rebounder. (which was why not playing Wallace seemed odd).
This year we have corrected the first two (Miller >> Vlade, Tag/Songaila >> Mass/Songaila) and should at least have a wash on the third -- Peeler averaged all of 2rebs a night last year in 18.5minutes. Neither Martin nor Alexander is going to watch the size/strength of JJ/Hedo, but matching or exceeding Peeler's rebounding would be hard not to do.
On the other hand, Doug's rebounding has always been strong for a guard. Bibby's a shrug for a PG, and Bobby's exceptional for a PG, still pretty good if you call him an OG.
And here's the thing, NONE of those guys have changed. We were never a dominant rebounding team, but in our top years we were respectable. So what changed? Peja is still Peja. Bobby still Bobby. Bibby still Bibby. Its not the little guys. And last year Miller stepped right in and put up Webb like rebounding numbers at the PF.
Biggest three problems in recent years:
1) Vlade has fallen off sharply. Argue all you want, but we lost 2.5-3rebs at that position in under 3 years. From a solid 8.4rebs in 30min in '02 to a weak 5.7rebs in 29min in '04.
2) Last year we went from Keon/Pollard off the bench to Massenberg/Songaila. Smaller players, lesser rebounders.
3) Last year we went from Hedo/JJ off the bench to Anthony Peeler. Again a much smaller player, and weaker rebounder. (which was why not playing Wallace seemed odd).
This year we have corrected the first two (Miller >> Vlade, Tag/Songaila >> Mass/Songaila) and should at least have a wash on the third -- Peeler averaged all of 2rebs a night last year in 18.5minutes. Neither Martin nor Alexander is going to watch the size/strength of JJ/Hedo, but matching or exceeding Peeler's rebounding would be hard not to do.
Regardless of how it happened....I am glad that Vlade is a laker again as he started with us....I know that he wont be a major contributor to our team as a defender or rebounder but he is still a good passer and can hit a outside shot.....we have been really happy with Chris Mihm as his he looks to be a good young player
I am equally happy that Vlade is a Laker and a well paid one too . And you better hope that Mihm is good player too. Because I dont see Vlade contributing much now. For us Vlade had a sentimental value, that was why most of the Kings fans prefered him here. But I think at the moment O'tag is a better player than Vlade. So have fun with the our old man. We are much better off anyway.
. And you better hope that Mihm is good player too. Because I dont see Vlade contributing much now. For us Vlade had a sentimental value, that was why most of the Kings fans prefered him here. But I think at the moment O'tag is a better player than Vlade. So have fun with the our old man. We are much better off anyway.