Stat of the Night

[andjel]

If we do not get pick this year it is not as clear as it might be that it hinders us in the long run.

I do not see someone in the draft that can contribute within a couple of years, and by giving pick to Bulls this year we have (a good) chance of not giving 76's unprotected in 2019.

I am fine with Kings winning as much as they can.

 

[Siranthony]

Other players amongst the lead leaders in turnovers (averagign 3.0+ this season):

James Harden #6 assists, #2 scoring
Russel Westbrook #2 in Assists, #7 scoring
John Wall #3 in Assists
Rajon Rondo #1 in assists
DeMarcus Cousins #4 scoring
Kevin Durant #3 scoring
Eric Bledsoe
Brandon Knight
Stephen Curry #1 scoring
Damian Lillard #5 scoring
Paul George #9 scoring
Lebron James #10 assists, #6 scoring
Emmanuel Mudiay
Draymond Green #7 assists
Kyle Lowry #13 scoring

Aside from the Phoenix boys, who weren't exactly playing winning ball this season, does anything on there stand out as aberrant? Chris Paul is a rare bird. In general the more you have the ball and the more you create, the more you turn it over.


Just as importantly we've played Denver 3 times in 6 weeks, won all 3, and scored 116, 114 with Rajon and Cousins, and now 115 without them. Which of course some jackass can take and say see? We don't need them! But which would generally answer the charge that damn they turn it over so we looooose!!!

People have to quit looking for scapegoats at some point. If you know the game you know main scoring weapons and main creative assistmen rack up turnovers. That's part of it. Especially when you are playing in a wacky undisciplined paceball system

Less turn overs and more scoring distribution. Just win baby. It doesn't matter who scores 40 a night or how many assists you have if you don't win.

 

[Padrino]

If we do not get pick this year it is not as clear as it might be that it hinders us in the long run.

I do not see someone in the draft that can contribute within a couple of years, and by giving pick to Bulls this year we have (a good) chance of not giving 76's unprotected in 2019.

I am fine with Kings winning as much as they can.

the draft pick is an asset. the player it yields is an asset. and assets can be traded. there's utility in the pick even if the kings draft a player that may be unable to contribute immediately...

 

[KingsFanSince85]

the draft pick is an asset. the player it yields is an asset. and assets can be traded.

The problem is, especially prior to the 76ers trade which most hated, the team was hindered by the fact that they didn't have the option of trading a 1st round pick in order to put a bigger deal together because they've owed the Cavs/Bulls a 1st for years. Getting out from underneath that has value unto itself. Although I admit I don't recall at which point it becomes a 2nd round pick instead of a 1st and am too lazy to look it up.

 

[pshn80]

Noting that Cousins and Rondo have a lot of turnovers is functionally the same thing as noting that they are 4th in scoring and leading the league in assists.

Magic Johnson averaged 11.2 ast/gm over his career. His career TOs? 3.9
John Stockton averaged 11.9 ast/gm over his career. His career TOs? 3.2
Rajon Rondo is averaging 11.6 ast/gm this season. His TOs? 3.9

There is nothing aberrant or particularly problematic about Rajon's TOs this year. You get a big assistman, you get a big turnover man.

As for Boogie, he leads the league in usage, OF COURSE he has a lot of turnovers. Here are the Top 10 players in the NBA in USG%, with their TOs/100 possessions.

USG_Player_TO/100
35.4 Cousins 5.3 = USG/TO 6.67
32.5 Curry 4.7 = USG/TO 6.91
32.4 Harden 6.0 = USG/TO 5.40
31.9 Wade 4.7 = USG/TO 6.78
31.8 Westrbook 6.0 = USG/TO 5.30
31.5 James 4.6 = USG/TO 6.85
31.4 Lillard 4.6 = USG/TO 6.83
31.0 Bryant 3.5 = USG/TO 8.86
30.5 Durant 4.8 = USG/TO 6.35
30.5 George 4.6 = USG/TO 6.63

So again, there is nothign aberrant about Boogie's turnovers. they are exactly where they should be for a player with his usage rate.


This is not why we struggle. And indeed as that article the other day pointed out, when both our TO guys are on the court at the same time we have a Top 10 offense. Its not a major issue.

And my wish tha the team cuts down turnovers significantly is not aberrant. If our two stars could find a way to cut down their turnovers I believe it wouldn't be a bad thing. Just my opinion.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And how often does that happen for stars, in general?

 

[gilly420]

If our star and to a lesser extent the rest of the team can't cut down his turnovers, we will continue to lose more often than we win.

 

[Telemachus]

If our star and to a lesser extent the rest of the team can't cut down his turnovers, we will continue to lose more often than we win.

As much as I would like to see the Kings turn the ball over less, their problem is defense. Just looking at the TO numbers can be deceiving because of the pace the Kings play at. OKC and GS are right there with the Kings with TOs, but all play fast and are among the highest scoring teams. However, when looking at assist/TO ratio, the Kings are 15th in the league. OKC right above them and GS just below.

 

[Bricklayer]

If our star and to a lesser extent the rest of the team can't cut down his turnovers, we will continue to lose more often than we win.

This is always what annoys me about the antis...I just put the damn numbers in front of you, broken down numerous ways, showing that there is very little difference between our star's/stars' turnovers and the turnovers of the bulk of the rest of the stars in the league, including guys on contending teams.

But no, when you have a plank you ignore any and all evidence that does fit not your plank. In this case blatantly.

For anybody who hasn't figured it out yet, the problem is not offense. You take our offense as it exists today and give it a league average defense and we're a +.500 team. You take our offense and give it a Top 10 defense and we might be a 50 win team. You'd like to be a little better with the TOs the same way you'd like to be better at everything, but our team TO% (14.1) is virtually identical to those struggling OKC Thunder (14.0).

 

[mac]

As much as I would like to see the Kings turn the ball over less, their problem is defense. Just looking at the TO numbers can be deceiving because of the pace the Kings play at. OKC and GS are right there with the Kings with TOs, but all play fast and are among the highest scoring teams. However, when looking at assist/TO ratio, the Kings are 15th in the league. OKC right above them and GS just below.

Thanks for the interesting stats. I was thinking that TOs don't just impact our offense but they largely affect our defense as well. Seeing that we're right there with OKC and GS in relative ratios however provides some food for thought. My guess is that there's still a difference in the nature of TOs (e.g. throwing the ball out of bounds lets you set up your defense, getting stripped doesn't, particularly when you spend 10 seconds talking to the ref after) but on the surface the relationship between our TOs and our defense isn't as clear as I thought it'd be.

 

[bajaden]

If we do not get pick this year it is not as clear as it might be that it hinders us in the long run.

I do not see someone in the draft that can contribute within a couple of years, and by giving pick to Bulls this year we have (a good) chance of not giving 76's unprotected in 2019.

I am fine with Kings winning as much as they can.

Zero logic in your statement. We deal in the now. We have people on this forum that on one hand want to win now, but on the other hand are just fine with giving away assets we have that could help us now. You stated that you don't see anyone in the draft that could help us now. Let me ask you this, how many of these players have you seen play? What if one of them, or hell maybe two or three of them end up being stars in the league. What if the player taken with the 7th pick in the draft ends up being a star? What then? Will you be one of the group that then criticizes the Kings for not keeping that pick. Not accusing, just asking.

I'm a firm believer in taking care of today, today, and worrying about tomorrow, tomorrow. We could make a trade in the off season that includes a pick for next year. You know what winning any of the games left this year accomplishes? ZERO, NADA, NOTHING!!!!!! Other than personal gratification and a warm fuzzy feeling you can go to bed with. Sorry, that's not good enough for me. I want to win next year. And giving away assets that could help us do that makes no sense to me.

If we put all the young players out there, and we end up winning anyway, Kudo's to them and I'll live with the results, and ask why they wern't playing before and why we wern't winning before? But right now, I want to see the Willie's and Curry's of the world play well and prove they belong on the team next season. I want all the games to come down to the last two minutes, and I want us to lose by one point. If that comes to pass, we will have accomplished three things. We will have secured our spot in the draft. We will have gotten a good look at players we needed to get a good look at, and we will have been entertained.

The summer is long enough and all we have to look forward to is the draft, and free agency. Remove the draft, and it becomes even more bleak. I understand passion and emotion, but sometimes you have to let your brain and logic rule. In war, emotion's get you killed. In the business world, they cause bad decisions. Not saying emotions and passions are a bad thing. Just saying, don't hand them the steering wheel.

 

[pshn80]

Zero logic in your statement. We deal in the now. We have people on this forum that on one hand want to win now, but on the other hand are just fine with giving away assets we have that could help us now. You stated that you don't see anyone in the draft that could help us now. Let me ask you this, how many of these players have you seen play? What if one of them, or hell maybe two or three of them end up being stars in the league. What if the player taken with the 7th pick in the draft ends up being a star? What then? Will you be one of the group that then criticizes the Kings for not keeping that pick. Not accusing, just asking.

I'm a firm believer in taking care of today, today, and worrying about tomorrow, tomorrow. We could make a trade in the off season that includes a pick for next year. You know what winning any of the games left this year accomplishes? ZERO, NADA, NOTHING!!!!!! Other than personal gratification and a warm fuzzy feeling you can go to bed with. Sorry, that's not good enough for me. I want to win next year. And giving away assets that could help us do that makes no sense to me.

If we put all the young players out there, and we end up winning anyway, Kudo's to them and I'll live with the results, and ask why they wern't playing before and why we wern't winning before? But right now, I want to see the Willie's and Curry's of the world play well and prove they belong on the team next season. I want all the games to come down to the last two minutes, and I want us to lose by one point. If that comes to pass, we will have accomplished three things. We will have secured our spot in the draft. We will have gotten a good look at players we needed to get a good look at, and we will have been entertained.

The summer is long enough and all we have to look forward to is the draft, and free agency. Remove the draft, and it becomes even more bleak. I understand passion and emotion, but sometimes you have to let your brain and logic rule. In war, emotion's get you killed. In the business world, they cause bad decisions. Not saying emotions and passions are a bad thing. Just saying, don't hand them the steering wheel.

Like but disagree. I want the Kings to win, not next year but now. Illogical? Maybe, maybe not. This may result in "giving up an asset" but not for nothing. You take the money you save and go in a different direction. Don't ever let a team think losing is OK because you then make it a game time decision. I don't like any part of that.

 

[andjel]

Zero logic in your statement. We deal in the now. We have people on this forum that on one hand want to win now, but on the other hand are just fine with giving away assets we have that could help us now. You stated that you don't see anyone in the draft that could help us now. Let me ask you this, how many of these players have you seen play? What if one of them, or hell maybe two or three of them end up being stars in the league. What if the player taken with the 7th pick in the draft ends up being a star? What then? Will you be one of the group that then criticizes the Kings for not keeping that pick. Not accusing, just asking.

I'm a firm believer in taking care of today, today, and worrying about tomorrow, tomorrow. We could make a trade in the off season that includes a pick for next year. You know what winning any of the games left this year accomplishes? ZERO, NADA, NOTHING!!!!!! Other than personal gratification and a warm fuzzy feeling you can go to bed with. Sorry, that's not good enough for me. I want to win next year. And giving away assets that could help us do that makes no sense to me.

If we put all the young players out there, and we end up winning anyway, Kudo's to them and I'll live with the results, and ask why they wern't playing before and why we wern't winning before? But right now, I want to see the Willie's and Curry's of the world play well and prove they belong on the team next season. I want all the games to come down to the last two minutes, and I want us to lose by one point. If that comes to pass, we will have accomplished three things. We will have secured our spot in the draft. We will have gotten a good look at players we needed to get a good look at, and we will have been entertained.

The summer is long enough and all we have to look forward to is the draft, and free agency. Remove the draft, and it becomes even more bleak. I understand passion and emotion, but sometimes you have to let your brain and logic rule. In war, emotion's get you killed. In the business world, they cause bad decisions. Not saying emotions and passions are a bad thing. Just saying, don't hand them the steering wheel.

First of all, I think we are coach and SG away from playoff, both manageable without additional assets.
Second, obtaining high single digit pick this year is close enough to me with giving unprotected pick in 2019 that intangibles of closing the season successfully for the young guys makes it close to wash.
You can skip the rest or read if you want.

Now to clarify my "zero logic".
Regarding impact draftee will have, I did not see any of them play. I do follow (mostly yours) estimates on this board and history of high single digit draftees being able to contribute within a couple of years (not often) and formed opinion based on that. Who is the guy you deem will upgrade us at the SG slot out of the gate and be better than Curry/Ben/Belli (Career average Belli, not whoever this is) in a first couple of years?
Regarding draft pick as an asset for trades this year, yeah that is a valid point. That would be a downside of grabbing win here or there.
Flip side is that by keeping this asset, we will have quite a good chance of giving 76's unprotected 2019 pick. I do not think it is necessarily a huge deal, but it is definitely something that would be nice to avoid in case things do not pan out the way they should (injuries, Cus not staying for example).
So: "If we do not get pick this year it is not as clear as it might be that it hinders us in the long run."

For "I am fine with Kings winning as much as they can." I can see how it can come out the wrong way.
We are not that far about expectations, I like that Cuz is not playing on the road, and I am definitely not advocating for going all in for the last few games.
If youngsters can win a game or two (not just fight to lose by a point, I think that directive would be quite bad), power to them. Great for their development, confidence and a team culture.

 

[bajaden]

Like but disagree. I want the Kings to win, not next year but now. Illogical? Maybe, maybe not. This may result in "giving up an asset" but not for nothing. You take the money you save and go in a different direction. Don't ever let a team think losing is OK because you then make it a game time decision. I don't like any part of that.

First of all, there is no right or wrong here. Your entitled to your beliefs. I just happen to disagree, and I happen to be a logical person. More wins equal nothing gained, except some nice personal experience gained from the win. Other than that, the Kings gain nothing, and perhaps lose an asset. An asset that they'll have for four years at a very reasonable price, as opposed to over paying for a similar player in freeagency. It's easy to discard a draft pick because it doesn't have a face or a personality. If the asset was Willie Cauley-Stein, would you feel the same way? Point is, you don't know.

Bear in mind, I'm talking about what I feel, not what the players are feeling. If I was a player I would be busting my but to win every game. So I'm not saying we should tell the players to go out and try to lose. What I personally feel has no reflection what so ever on how the players play the game. Now management can certainly affect the outcome to some degree by shutting down some of the top players on the team, and the Kings seem to be doing that. I don't have a problem with that because first, it makes it more likely we don't lose our draft pick, and two, it gives more playing time to players that we need to make decisions on in the off season. That said, I understand where your coming from. The difference between you and I for the rest of the season when we lose by one point is that I'll be happy, and you'll be sad.. Or vice versa....

 

[pshn80]

First of all, there is no right or wrong here. Your entitled to your beliefs. I just happen to disagree, and I happen to be a logical person. More wins equal nothing gained, except some nice personal experience gained from the win. Other than that, the Kings gain nothing, and perhaps lose an asset. An asset that they'll have for four years at a very reasonable price, as opposed to over paying for a similar player in freeagency. It's easy to discard a draft pick because it doesn't have a face or a personality. If the asset was Willie Cauley-Stein, would you feel the same way? Point is, you don't know.

Bear in mind, I'm talking about what I feel, not what the players are feeling. If I was a player I would be busting my but to win every game. So I'm not saying we should tell the players to go out and try to lose. What I personally feel has no reflection what so ever on how the players play the game. Now management can certainly affect the outcome to some degree by shutting down some of the top players on the team, and the Kings seem to be doing that. I don't have a problem with that because first, it makes it more likely we don't lose our draft pick, and two, it gives more playing time to players that we need to make decisions on in the off season. That said, I understand where your coming from. The difference between you and I for the rest of the season when we lose by one point is that I'll be happy, and you'll be sad.. Or vice versa....

Just a small point. If we lose by he point I wold be sad but if we played hard and well so I feel we did the best we could I'm OK. Beng a Kings fan for 30 years I have had to be that way.

And you are right , there s a difference between what you and I feel and what the players feel. I can't remember a time when I felt the players weren't trying.

 

[andjel]

First of all, there is no right or wrong here. Your entitled to your beliefs. I just happen to disagree, and I happen to be a logical person. More wins equal nothing gained, except some nice personal experience gained from the win. Other than that, the Kings gain nothing, and perhaps lose an asset. An asset that they'll have for four years at a very reasonable price, as opposed to over paying for a similar player in freeagency. It's easy to discard a draft pick because it doesn't have a face or a personality. If the asset was Willie Cauley-Stein, would you feel the same way? Point is, you don't know.

Bear in mind, I'm talking about what I feel, not what the players are feeling. If I was a player I would be busting my but to win every game. So I'm not saying we should tell the players to go out and try to lose. What I personally feel has no reflection what so ever on how the players play the game. Now management can certainly affect the outcome to some degree by shutting down some of the top players on the team, and the Kings seem to be doing that. I don't have a problem with that because first, it makes it more likely we don't lose our draft pick, and two, it gives more playing time to players that we need to make decisions on in the off season. That said, I understand where your coming from. The difference between you and I for the rest of the season when we lose by one point is that I'll be happy, and you'll be sad.. Or vice versa....

One can think they are logical, but if they do not have valid information their logic conclusions are faulty or incomplete.

http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/kings-trade-jt-nik-and-landry-to-sixers-renamed.61422/page-46
"Second, the 2018 pick IS top-10 protected, but it is only in play if we end up sending the 2016 first rounder to Chicago. Otherwise, we could potentially send both our 2017 (to CHI) and 2018 (to PHI) picks, and that would violate the Stepien Rule. If we do not send the 2016 pick to Chicago, the 2018 pick remains ours. "

If certain Captain is correct, we are directly talking here about the future of the unprotected pick in 2019, the pick that will be used after Kings first season without Cuz if he does not sign with us again. In short, we either give this years pick or we will give unprotected 2019 pick to Sixers. That is a very non-feeling related drawback of keeping this years pick.

Now if the above statement is not correct, than the first sentence from this post refers to me

 

[Siranthony]

One can think they are logical, but if they do not have valid information their logic conclusions are faulty or incomplete.

http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/kings-trade-jt-nik-and-landry-to-sixers-renamed.61422/page-46
"Second, the 2018 pick IS top-10 protected, but it is only in play if we end up sending the 2016 first rounder to Chicago. Otherwise, we could potentially send both our 2017 (to CHI) and 2018 (to PHI) picks, and that would violate the Stepien Rule. If we do not send the 2016 pick to Chicago, the 2018 pick remains ours. "

If certain Captain is correct, we are directly talking here about the future of the unprotected pick in 2019, the pick that will be used after Kings first season without Cuz if he does not sign with us again. In short, we either give this years pick or we will give unprotected 2019 pick to Sixers. That is a very non-feeling related drawback of keeping this years pick.

Now if the above statement is not correct, than the first sentence from this post refers to me

FYI the 2018 protected becomes a 2019 unprotected if we don't convey it this years pick.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/kings-trade-jt-nik-and-landry-to-sixers-renamed.61422/page-46
"Second, the 2018 pick IS top-10 protected, but it is only in play if we end up sending the 2016 first rounder to Chicago. Otherwise, we could potentially send both our 2017 (to CHI) and 2018 (to PHI) picks, and that would violate the Stepien Rule. If we do not send the 2016 pick to Chicago, the 2018 pick remains ours. "

If certain Captain is correct, we are directly talking here about the future of the unprotected pick in 2019, the pick that will be used after Kings first season without Cuz if he does not sign with us again. In short, we either give this years pick or we will give unprotected 2019 pick to Sixers. That is a very non-feeling related drawback of keeping this years pick.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the whole works (because I can't help myself). The above is true so far as I can tell. However...

Let's imagine that the following happen:
1) We do not send this year's pick to Chicago.
2) We do not send the 2017 pick to Chicago because we finished in the top-10 again and it became a second-rounder.

The Stepien Rule says that a team may not make a trade that could in any circumstances result in a team NOT having a first-round pick in two consecutive future drafts. If we keep the 2017 (either because we fulfill the obligation in 2016 or because we do not convey the 2017 due to protection) the 2018 pick is fair game to be traded. We know that the trade included language to cover the case where the pick was conveyed in 2016. What we don't seem to know is whether the trade included language to cover the case where the pick was NOT conveyed in either 2016 or 2017. Therefore, if when we made the trade with Philly the trade language included something like the following caveat: "If the Kings' 2017 pick is not conveyed in trade due to being in the top-ten and therefore protected, Philadelphia will receive a 2018 first round pick top-ten protected...(blah blah blah)" then two years of sucking would ALSO allow us to convey the pick in 2018 and avoid the unprotected situation in 2019.

However, I have not seen any indication that such language was written into the trade. At the same time, the people reporting on the trade almost certainly have less interest in minutiae than (some of) the folks here at KF.com so I wouldn't rule this scenario out entirely.

 

[andjel]

FYI the 2018 protected becomes a 2019 unprotected if we don't convey it this years pick.

FYI, that is only that clear if we DO convey pick this year. If we do not, things are not as simple.

Lets assume that Kings keep 2016 pick.

option 1 for 2017) Give pick to the Bulls (i.e. we do not suck)
consequence: We will have pick in 2018 no matter what and 76's get unprotected in 2019. That was the clear consequence I was referring to and the most likely in my mind.

option 2 for 2017) Still keep the pick (i.e. we still suck)
consequence: Not clear. Is the wording there or not as Capt'n described. Might be either what you said or the same as option 1. Now here the option 1 would be quite disaster since if we suck so long we are losing Cuz, and 2019 is the first draft Kings have after a year without Cuz (shudder).