Starting at the 3?

[Capt. Factorial]

You know, at the moment you start to construct any argument that involves Kevin Martin in comparison to Kobe Bryant you should just check yourself before you even begin.

Brick, that was you. You were the one who said a superstar could not maintain Martin's usage numbers and still lead a successful team. I will quote again: "That doesn't even work with superstar level players, let alone players of Kevin's grade." I simply picked a superstar and looked at the numbers.

But as a Kevin partisan, you will not.

Thanks for letting me sit on the sofa, Freud.

Its not really that hard. 1) Kevin does nothing but score. The true stars do everything else as well. Kevin actively hurts his team when not scoring. The true stars are often carrying their teams when not scoring.

But that wasn't the point I was responding to! You said that Kevin shot too often, at too low of a percentage, to successfully lead a team. Re-read your post. And what I was trying to show, yet again, is that this is not the problem.

You're right in saying that it's everything else Martin doesn't do that separates him from the superstars. But the argument that Martin shoots more often - in fact at a super-optimal rate (meaning too often to be optimal) - than superstars simply isn't correct. And it only took one look at one superstar's stats to show that superstars on successful teams CAN shoot that often, with that sort of efficiency.

You know, you can go ahead and move the goalposts all you want. Make inaccurate statements, and when the facts are presented, then change the argument. You've done it before, and you'll do it again. And it probably works really well on juries. But it doesn't work on me.

Kevin scores 30, and everybody else on the team's offense was actually DEPRESSED. Nobody was shooting even 40%.

Wow, that's a doozy. Considering that once you take Martin's shots out of those five games, the rest of the team was shooting 42.5% as a whole, I find it hard to believe that nobody was shooting over 40%. Maybe there's some new kind of wormhole math I'm not aware of that would allow that to happen. (And no, I don't have the time right now to go through and figure out which Kings players were shooting over 40% during those five games.)

See? This is all I ask - that when you decide to throw out a statement of fact that can actually be checked, like "superstars can't shoot that often and have a successful team" or "nobody else on the team was shooting over 40%" that you actually check to make sure it is true before you throw it out there. Please.

 

[Bricklayer]

here are the stats from last year

Kobe Bryant averaged 26ppg on on 20 shots per game

Kevin Martin averaged 24ppg on 15 shots per game


Kobe took 5 more shots a game to get 2pts more then K-Mart

And again, people around here seem prone to foolishly blowing up their own stats -- Kobe also won something like 50 more games than Kevin. You do nothing more than prove the something approaching utter irrelevancy of "scoring efficiency".

 

[Bricklayer]

judging a player on 5 games?? u just lost all your credibility there. free throws are not shot atempts, they are if fact "free points" or at least they should be. How could u judge a player negativly based on averaging 9.8FT a game?? THATS ALMOST 10 FREE POINTS A GAME!

Please stop embarrassing yourself. You are tempting me to be cruel.

 

[vistacruza_kings]

I have lost alot of respect for Bricklayer. You ignorant one-sided arguements based off little of no evidence to back them up is mind-boggling. And you never admitting that you are wrong can be extremely frustrating.

You have made my expierence on this forum a regrettable one.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

here are the stats from last year

Kobe Bryant averaged 26ppg on on 20 shots per game

Kevin Martin averaged 24ppg on 15 shots per game


Kobe took 5 more shots a game to get 2pts more then K-Mart

You always have to be careful to count your shot attempts correctly, though. Shots on which a player was fouled and draws free throws DO use a possession, and need to be accounted for. Not doing this makes your stats pretty much invalid.

The currently-accepted estimate (and it IS an estimate) for shots on which a player is fouled and gets free throws (not and-1s, which count as FGA) is 0.44*FTA.

So, Kevin took 15.9 + 0.44*10.3 = 20.4 shots per game last year.
Kobe took 20.9 + 0.44*6.9 = 23.9 shots per game last year.

You should remember to make that adjustment if you want to talk about shots taken. (You should probably also use the first decimal place, or at least round properly, when doing averages - without the correction, Kevin and Kobe were still closer to 16 and 21 FGA per game last year.)

 

[JB_kings]

Kevin Martin even says it himself in this video that it is not about SCORING, it is about helping the TEAM win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPVfXoP7fXQ

also one thing to note, kevin has improved his game every year, and hes only 26!

Nice offense only highlight package. Where was the defense? In the last week Donte has highlight packages that includes shooting, athletic dunks and blocked shots on 2 of the 3 best players on the planet.

I truly believe Kevin wants to win games more than anything. I just don't know if he's willing to lay it all out and play both ends of the court. If he wants to improve this season, show me at the other end of the floor. Be an all star defender and then I'll be his biggest fan.

 

[vistacruza_kings]

Please stop embarrassing yourself. You are tempting me to be cruel.

embarassing myself? bahah i could care less. this is a messege board, not real life. maybe if you actually had a life you wouldnt spend all day a forum trying to belittle people.

Be cruel?? what? was that a threat? lmao. im shaking in my boots

 

[Bricklayer]

Brick, that was you. You were the one who said a superstar could not maintain Martin's usage numbers and still lead a successful team. I will quote again: "That doesn't even work with superstar level players, let alone players of Kevin's grade." I simply picked a superstar and looked at the numbers.



Thanks for letting me sit on the sofa, Freud.



But that wasn't the point I was responding to! You said that Kevin shot too often, at too low of a percentage, to successfully lead a team. Re-read your post. And what I was trying to show, yet again, is that this is not the problem.

You're right in saying that it's everything else Martin doesn't do that separates him from the superstars. But the argument that Martin shoots more often - in fact at a super-optimal rate (meaning too often to be optimal) - than superstars simply isn't correct. And it only took one look at one superstar's stats to show that superstars on successful teams CAN shoot that often, with that sort of efficiency.

You know, you can go ahead and move the goalposts all you want. Make inaccurate statements, and when the facts are presented, then change the argument. You've done it before, and you'll do it again. And it probably works really well on juries. But it doesn't work on me.



Wow, that's a doozy. Considering that once you take Martin's shots out of those five games, the rest of the team was shooting 42.5% as a whole, I find it hard to believe that nobody was shooting over 40%. Maybe there's some new kind of wormhole math I'm not aware of that would allow that to happen. (And no, I don't have the time right now to go through and figure out which Kings players were shooting over 40% during those five games.)

See? This is all I ask - that when you decide to throw out a statement of fact that can actually be checked, like "superstars can't shoot that often and have a successful team" or "nobody else on the team was shooting over 40%" that you actually check to make sure it is true before you throw it out there. Please.

1) took me a while to find that statement. here was my quote:

Kevin scored 30 on ****ty shooting, nobody else scored more than 11. That doesn't even work with superstar level players, let alone players of Kevin's grade. Basically the Stackhouse in Detroit syndrome.

Notice the key statement in red that you read right over -- you have been arguing a point I never made. The great ones can do A (score 30 points), because them doing so does not necessarily create B (nobody else scoring). However even WITH a true great player, the creation of B means no success.

2) regading the early season shooting/scoring -- that one was done from memory. But it was not far off. Unfortunately as far as I know there still is not a site that will let you see accumulated stats from your choice of game,s oreveer a specified period of games, but here are the stats from October (which you can select from the splits over at ESPN):
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams...&season=2&sort=pts&order=true&avg=pg&split=39

at which point you had:

Tyreke: 12.7ppg .405 FG%
Hawes: 10.7ppg .419 FG%
Casspi: 8.7ppg .522 FG%
Thompson 8.7ppg .360 FG%
Nocioni 7.3ppg .364 FG%
May 5.7ppg .583 FG%
Udrih 4.5ppg .375 FG%
Mason 4.3ppg .417 FG%
Brockman 3.7ppg .625 FG%
Sergio 1.7ppg .286 FG%
Greene 0.0ppg .000 FG%

I had forgotten about Omri, but otherwise...

that leaves the Atlanta game where we shot .417 (Kevin shot .500) and the Memphis game where we shot .484 (Kevin shot .518). to alter those numbers, and it wil work out to whatever it will work out to. It was not hyperbole though. Maybe off by a few percentages, as memory will be, but pretty damn close to accurate.

 

[Bricklayer]

I have lost alot of respect for Bricklayer. You ignorant one-sided arguements based off little of no evidence to back them up is mind-boggling. And you never admitting that you are wrong can be extremely frustrating.

I'm sure it can. Being shrill is normally enough to win many arguments. But suffice it to say that ignoring shrillness to cut back into an arugment is an occupational hazard of mine.

Hint: don't make silly statements and you will not be called silly.

 

[vistacruza_kings]

And again, people around here seem prone to foolishly blowing up their own stats -- Kobe also won something like 50 more games than Kevin. You do nothing more than prove the something approaching utter irrelevancy of "scoring efficiency".

This has to be one of you worst arguements. bahaha are you really comparing the kings team last year to the lakers??? WOW

 

[vistacruza_kings]

I'm sure it can. Being shrill is normally enough to win many arguments. But suffice it to say that ignoring shrillness to cut back into an arugment is an occupational hazard of mine.

Hint: don't make silly statements and you will not be called silly.

silly? talk about silly statments, just look at all of your arguements. nuff said

 

[vistacruza_kings]

Does anyone on this forum actually like you Bricklayer?

 

[D-Mass]

Does anyone on this forum actually like you Bricklayer?

I do...and to a large extent, he's right on this one. I think you're remembering back to Kevin's early start as a breakout player...Jerry Reynolds used to brag about Kevin's efficiency quite a bit. Then again, Jerry Reynolds says that big men and shot-blocking are overrated.

His efficiency is not what it once was, and without any significant defensive presence, Kevin's value has dropped quite a bit.

 

[Oskor]

Does anyone on this forum actually like you Bricklayer?

Lol... you are funny.

 

[vistacruza_kings]

seriously sometimes Bricklayer thinks he is GOD

hows that for a silly statement

 

[hammystyle]

Somehow I detect a tendency to treat KMart as if he's John Salmons. The later is a ball hogging selfish volume shooter and the former is an efficient scorer who doesn't need the ball until the last moment. Really, Until last season when all the wheels fell out of the wagon, KMart has always been a guy who is happy to move the ball and play within the offense. He never racks up assist because he is not good at driving and kicking but he willingly keep the ball moving when he didn't have a shot.

That's not to say KMart is surely going to jell with Evans. But you have to let them try.

I think its more that the "keep Martin" crowd points out his positives and the "trade Martin" points out why he might not fit now, which usually resorts to criticism. I think everyone agrees Martin is a good player who's better than John Salmons.

In regards to letting them jell, they probably will have a chance to play together, but how long is the right amount of time to make a good judgement? If they play the rest of the season and don't jell well that likely means their value has been decreased.

I think one way to look at is in reverse...what if we started with the assets we'd be looking for in a Martin trade, for instance the Kirilenko/NY#1 scenario. Our backcourt is still playing outstanding, plus we'd have Cisco ready to come back and add depth, defense, and shooting. Kirilenko would essentially take all of Noc's and some of Hawes minutes playing primarily as a backup PF. Our defense would be vastly improved, and we'd have what's currently the #7 pick.

So just imagine that as the reality. In that scenario would we be looking to trade our best defender and the #7 pick for a backcourt scorer?

 

[Oprostaj]

Does anyone on this forum actually like you Bricklayer?

You should trully dig around a bit on the forums before you assume. Brick and the posters here are having a genuine disagreement that I, for one found greatly entertaining to read (I mean the actual argument, not the B level Jerry Springer entertainment ) Also, should probably calm down with the Bricklayer bashing. Just because you disagree does not make either one right. Took me a while to get that one. Your argument like the whole FTs not counting as possesions rather than free points just makes any statement after it moot. Seriously, go back, read your post again and you'll see what I'm talking about. You seem like a nice enough energetic person, either a bit on the young side or maybe just having a bad day.

 

[vistacruza_kings]

I think its more that the "keep Martin" crowd points out his positives and the "trade Martin" points out why he might not fit now, which usually resorts to criticism. I think everyone agrees Martin is a good player who's better than John Salmons.

In regards to letting them jell, they probably will have a chance to play together, but how long is the right amount of time to make a good judgement? If they play the rest of the season and don't jell well that likely means their value has been decreased.

I think one way to look at is in reverse...what if we started with the assets we'd be looking for in a Martin trade, for instance the Kirilenko/NY#1 scenario. Our backcourt is still playing outstanding, plus we'd have Cisco ready to come back and add depth, defense, and shooting. Kirilenko would essentially take all of Noc's and some of Hawes minutes playing primarily as a backup PF. Our defense would be vastly improved, and we'd have what's currently the #7 pick.

So just imagine that as the reality. In that scenario would we be looking to trade our best defender and the #7 pick for a backcourt scorer?

see this is a logical post seeing both sides. Saying trade martin so we can get something valueable in return. thats logical

but bricklayer saying "trade martin" because he might not mesh with this team doesnt hold any water. there realy no way of knowing that, u cant judge on 5 games.

Id say wait till the end of the season before we do anything with Martin. He is signed for a while, so we could still trade him and get something for it.

 

[Merdiesel]

This is entertaining.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

How about three hundred fourteen games? Can we judge him based on that? Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think that there's another level that Martin is capable of attaining. I think that we know what he is at this point in his career.

So then, the question becomes, does Martin's game play well off of Evans' game? If two players of their skill sets are able to be compatible, it will be, TTBOMK, the first time that's ever happened. My gut says "not a chance," but I'm willing to adopt a "wait and see" attitude.

 

[pshn80]

On who should start at the 3........
Our three candidates are Noc, Omri and Greene. They have all started on at least several occasions. I suspect we will see all three have starts at the 3. Probably Omri and Greene on more occasions. Westphal at one time indicated that he would rather have Noc off the bench. The two young guys are both works in process - both are very talented but one needs to make some big steps forward mentally, the other needs to improve on his physical abilities. To put it more crudely - Greene is a little too out-to-lunch and Omri performs a little klutzy in some of his moves. My pleasure is that Westphal has to make the decisions and I'm confident in him.

On the impact of Martin's return on the team and its winning..........
I believe Brick has made an excellent analysis of Martin's pluses and minuses in his career with us except in his conclusion that it is unlikely to be successful. I think it is likely to be successful because everyone- the coaches, the players, and Martin - want it to and will work hard at it. Can it fail? Sure, just like Tyreke, Omri, or Donte can fail.

 

[JB_kings]

Does anyone on this forum actually like you Bricklayer?

I've got respect for Bricklayer over the years. Sometimes we see eye to eye on points and other times not. This however is the first time I've seen you in a debate. My advice is to avoid the personal stuff and stick to the arguments. I realize two play the game, but you don't have to.

 

[Oprostaj]

I think that we know what he is at this point in his career.

So we shouldn't crown his ***?

 

[hammystyle]

see this is a logical post seeing both sides. Saying trade martin so we can get something valueable in return. thats logical

but bricklayer saying "trade martin" because he might not mesh with this team doesnt hold any water. there realy no way of knowing that, u cant judge on 5 games.

Id say wait till the end of the season before we do anything with Martin. He is signed for a while, so we could still trade him and get something for it.

As Slim just noted, we've seen Martin play for 5 years and 5 games, so we can make an educated guess how he'll mesh with the current squad that's now 13-12 in his absence.

Geoff should be working the phones now to try and find the right deal. If it comes, you take it. If you don't you have the luxury of seeing how Martin and Evans fit together.

 

[vistacruza_kings]

How about three hundred fourteen games? Can we judge him based on that? Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think that there's another level that Martin is capable of attaining. I think that we know what he is at this point in his career.

So then, the question becomes, does Martin's game play well off of Evans' game? If two players of their skill sets are able to be compatible, it will be, TTBOMK, the first time that's ever happened. My gut says "not a chance," but I'm willing to adopt a "wait and see" attitude.

Another post making a statement with nothing to back it up. Kevin has improved his game and gotton better EVERY YEAR, the stats dont lie. So why are u saying hes reached his ceiling. IN MY OPINION he is just reaching his prime now at 26.

I dont want to see one more post saying Martin and Evans cant play together until we see them play at least half a season with one another.

Be logical, dont make blind assumptions like Bricklayer

 

[JB_kings]

And yes back on topic. I think Greene is the guy I think should be groomed into the SF spot. He seems to be growing by leaps and bounds this season. Getting to own that position is going slow because coach has some options based upon matchups and whose most effective. I think Donte's next biggest step is consistancy of effort. He still can float a bit too much and I think that's why coach manages his minutes a bit more tightly. I will say it's nice to have a group of guys with different abilites to plug in there. Competition for minutes is a good thing for the team.

 

[VF21]

I have lost alot of respect for Bricklayer. You ignorant one-sided arguements based off little of no evidence to back them up is mind-boggling. And you never admitting that you are wrong can be extremely frustrating.

You have made my expierence on this forum a regrettable one.

Okay, dude... Here's the deal. I can be and am as critical of Brickie as anyone on this forum. But you're stepping way over the line and trying to turn this away from the topic at hand and into some kind of pissing contest.

I'll give you a heads up right now ... if you want to turn it in to something like that, you're gonna be left with a bunch of stuff running down your own leg.

You've taken this way further than should normally be allowed, so drop it now. Argue the criticisms of Martin as being warranted or not all you like, but call ANYONE on this board "ignorant" again and you're going to be facing the same kind of infractions we deal to anyone else.

Got it?

 

[VF21]

Not only do you not have the exact terminology right, as usual wiht Kevin supporters you are dead wrong. Go back, search to your heart;s content, and try to find the post where I panned the Kevin pick. I SUPPORTED the Kevin pick. It was no shot of Geoff genius out of the dark as various idiots make it out to be -- Kevin was a popular sleeper as a late round pick that year. It was very much like the Gerald Wallace situation, or Omri this year, somebody was going to not outsmart themselves and just take him.

You would also, if you took time to do the research, find the posts where I defended poor little Kevie from the meanies who wanted to give him the boot after his first patheitc season. I did not do so because I necessarily thought Kevin was going to be anything special -- he had shown exactly jack and squat at that point. But I did defend him on the same principle I was defending Donte Green over this past summer (while you yourself were trying to throw him, under the bus) -- you don't toss away kids with potential after one ****ty rookie season.

The rest of your assertions combine baseless fantasies of persecution with ridiculous speculation.

I think I've taken this as far as I possibly can without violating the very rules of the board I'm supposed to be upholding, but I will say in closing that you are not totally without dirt on your hands in this whole situation.

At least admit that you have always had a burr under your saddle about those who have been enthusiastic about Martin.

As usual with Kevin supporters

Is that supposed to be a dig? Sorry, but I'm very proud of Kevin and what he's done.

I defended poor little Kevie from the meanies who wanted to give him the boot after his first patheitc season.

I could also dig up the posts where you pointedly attacked Martin's family members who came here and posted.

As far as wanting to throw Donte Greene under the bus, I admitted that I might have been premature and have actually been pretty honest about my revised opinion of him.

Have a nice day.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Another post making a statement with nothing to back it up. Kevin has improved his game and gotton better EVERY YEAR, the stats dont lie...

What the stats say is that Martin's field goal percentage has gone down every year that he's been a starter, and that his rebounding and passing is sub-par for his position; his rebounding actually went backwards last year. And the most important stat is 17-65; what that tells you is that what Martin does give you isn't enough to offset what he doesn't give you, which is, namely, toughness and defense. This from a player whom, relative to his peers, cannot create his own shot.

If Martin can continue to average five rebounds a game when he comes back, as he did in the first five games, then I'll cop to being wrong about his ceiling. Personally, I think that there's about as much chance of that happening as there is of him continuing to average thirty points a game. Which is to say, no chance.

 

[VF21]

What the stats say is that Martin's field goal percentage has gone down every year that he's been a starter, and that his rebounding and passing is sub-par for his position; his rebounding actually went backwards last year. And the most important stat is 17-65; what that tells you is that what Martin does give you isn't enough to offset what he doesn't give you, which is, namely, toughness and defense. This from a player whom, relative to his peers, cannot create his own shot.

If Martin can continue to average five rebounds a game when he comes back, as he did in the first five games, then I'll cop to being wrong about his ceiling. Personally, I think that there's about as much chance of that happening as there is of him continuing to average thirty points a game. Which is to say, no chance.

I still don't understand the relevance of the argument. Yes, the team was abysmal last year. Yes, Martin was on the team last year - but so were a number of other guys who have been replaced by nice new shiny models. And guys like Beno, who pretty much played like dog poop last year, are stepping up and giving 100%...

We've got a new coach, and it's clear there's a new attitude. So why would you continually bring up the record as proof that Martin isn't any good??????

Bottom line, I think what frustrates me the most is the idea being put forth that there's no use waiting to see how Evans and Martin will play together.

But, having said all that, I'm fully aware this is an argument I not only will not win but that will end up getting me frustrated at what I perceive to be unfair comments about Martin. I'm at least content in the knowledge that regardless of what's said here, the organization IS anxious to see how their games complement each other and since they're the ones whose opinions actually determine which players are on the team, the rest is just speculation and heated discourse on our board.