M_Barragan
Bench
Dante is light years ahead of Casspi on the defensive end. Have ou been watching the games bro?
Starting at the 3?
- Thread starter vistacruza_kings
- Start date
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Uh...where does that come from?
I'm willing to go out on a limb here same way I was with Reke early with the superstar thing and say something close to a gush: Donte Greene has the potential to be a flat out stopper. Maybe even a considered for the All Defense Team sort of stopper. Which I never in a million trillion gadzillion years would have remotely imagined myself saying a year ago. But he has stretches where he is just that good. This week alone we have put him up aginst basically the three best offensive players in the world -- there are no higher challenges -- and he has done things you just don't see people do against them. Still so young and immature and inconsistent, but the potential is amazing and most surpising of all is the complete turnaround in mentality. He WANTS to be a great defender, seems focused on it, and if that remains true and he doesn't get distracted by gaudy offensive stats he is flat out going to be.
Omri scraps and tries hard, but I'm not sure he is even average as a defender yet. I see no reason going forward why he will ever be a liability on that end -- he wants to be good and will willingly do evertyhing he can on thta end -- but he certainly isn't going to consistently be able to stare down Kobe.
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Ed2009
Bench
I am concerned that we will get real difficulties when KMart returns.
Its obvious that if he is in shape the coach will have to let him play and some of the guys that are right now giving our team such a boost will get much less playing time.
Donte has in my opinion a lot of potentail and he proved lately how valuable (especiall on D) he is-the open question is obviously how consistent can and will he be.
I personally like Casspi very much-and think that he has lots of potentail to develop and become a good starter not only a role player.
Coach W. will have to deceide on a night to night basis who is more suitable to start depending on the team we will face.
Personally I would try to trade KMart and let the current team grow and develop.
But who knows maybe when KM returns we will be a even better and stronger team since he is with no doubt a great player that can score on any given night.
Its obvious that if he is in shape the coach will have to let him play and some of the guys that are right now giving our team such a boost will get much less playing time.
Donte has in my opinion a lot of potentail and he proved lately how valuable (especiall on D) he is-the open question is obviously how consistent can and will he be.
I personally like Casspi very much-and think that he has lots of potentail to develop and become a good starter not only a role player.
Coach W. will have to deceide on a night to night basis who is more suitable to start depending on the team we will face.
Personally I would try to trade KMart and let the current team grow and develop.
But who knows maybe when KM returns we will be a even better and stronger team since he is with no doubt a great player that can score on any given night.
i cant stand it anymore. Some of you make it like Martin takes the same amount of shots as the old AI did in his heyday in philly.
You have no idea how Martin will fit with tyreke. You have no idea how Cisco will fit. They havent got to play together (5 games).
I am done reading these types of threads. Just frustrates me too much to listen to this stuff.
LA King Fan II
Bench
I've thought Cisco was the best player on the Kings for awhile now. Maybe not with Evans in the mix, but he is absolutely the one guy who would not detract from what they building (in playing style). When is he coming back?
Kevin Martin is a very good scorer and much better than I ever thought he would be - but he should be traded -- if there is a market. My fear is that his shortcomings as an all around player (and his $$ contract) will make it hard to move him. He is the Kings' best chance of getting a strong player and/or high pick for next year.
Cisco creates on offense and defense = 'good thing'.
Kevin Martin is a very good scorer and much better than I ever thought he would be - but he should be traded -- if there is a market. My fear is that his shortcomings as an all around player (and his $$ contract) will make it hard to move him. He is the Kings' best chance of getting a strong player and/or high pick for next year.
Cisco creates on offense and defense = 'good thing'.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The big question is - What will be Kevin's mental makeup when he returns? If he thinks he has to score 30 points a game there will be problems.
Obviously there would be.
But I don't think the argument for trading him depends on him being an idiot and demanding all the shots. The argument for trading him really isn't about Kevin having ill will or being Terrell Owens or something, its a straightforward basketball argument -- Kevin, being Kevin, the same Kevin we have seen for years (as opposed to a 30ppg superhero/egomaniacal gremlin) does not fit. He shoots too much, defends too little, does not pass, plays soft and flops, shows no emotion, and perhaps most importantly of all he plays the same positions as the very players that have revived us. He is going to steal the minutes of the good guys who frankly have done his job better than he did while he was here -- if you see that job as being tough scrappy versatile gamers. Or as winning. Kevin can be nice. Kevin can be cute. Kevin can set old grandmothers' hearts aflutter about what a nice boy he is. And he can still be the wrong player for the job, and can still disrupt everything we have going on here. Not because he's a jerk. But because he is what he is -- a soft one dimensional pure scoring SG. We don't need one of those.
And just for comparison -- if Kevin, just as soft, one dimensional etc. was a center, I would not be so keen on the trade Kevin idea. Oh eventually yes -- soft players do not win championships, ever. But in the short term he would be filling a hole at a problem spot, and his return would not disrupt the good things we have had going. Similarly there are rumors the Rockets want Kevin, and you know what? They should. They have their big guy returning next year (hopefully) their #1 option inside. Kevin could be an effective wingman to a big star center. And they have such a veteran group of scrappers there, such a well defined team spirit centered around defense, that Kevin, as the new guy in town, would have to be compeltely hopeless and pathetic not to bow to it and try to fit in.
The problem is the fit, our personnel, how we are winning and why. And the problem is there without Kevin coming back playing the fool (which I don't expect him to do). I think there are two groups trying to force Kevin into the lineup whether out of sentiment or obliviousness. One sees a pretty soft one dimesnioanl shooting guard and thinks we actually need that while ignoring the impact on all the young hustler/scrapper/ballhandlers we've been using to acheive ouor success. That is foolish, and just wrong. The other hopes that somehow a player who has played the game one way his entire life is suddenly going to come in and be a new player, transform his game, and be happy and comortable with it, while again somehow magically not disrupting all the young scrappers/hustlers/ballhanders we've been using. That would be rather extraordinary, but if I have any hope in the situation that has to be it. It never happens, but maybe just maybe...its something to root for at least if this thing has to happen.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Nets aren't going to trade Lopez. But if you want to start a thread on it, probably better in the personnel forum.
Jespher
Starter
As for the problem with too many talented players on the wings, it could really play into the Kings favor if they continue to have the indian graveyard curse of injuries. Say, if Tyreke's ankle continues to be a problem, or if Omri/Donte comes down wrong on something. They are still the Kings afterall, and injuries happen.
That's what is so great about this team so far, is that they seem to be able to withstand these things and continue to improve. It really makes me optimistic for the future of this team! Go Kings
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That's what is so great about this team so far, is that they seem to be able to withstand these things and continue to improve. It really makes me optimistic for the future of this team! Go Kings
.In the end, and if he's not traded. Nocioni will get majority of the minutes of him, greene and Casspi. Because ehe is the better player. He may have been in a slump, but is a very coachable player, the coach likes him, and in money time the coach will end trusting in him.
If you see what Noc played in Chicago when he has fine physically, you can say he is a better player than all of or 3's, he outplayed luol deng for almost a year.
If you see what Noc played in Chicago when he has fine physically, you can say he is a better player than all of or 3's, he outplayed luol deng for almost a year.
vistacruza_kings
Bench
seems to me like tyreke could add to 2+ assists just by kicking it out to martin a couple times a game.
also on tv, ive seen martin mentoring tyreke many time after a mistake. this shows he is sold out to be part of this team. not really sure where this "cisco can work better with tyreke" talk is coming from, being that cisco and tyreke have played exactly 0 games together.
tyreke and cisco are both ballhandlers too, k-mart can easily be taught the role of catch and shoot ray allen style 3rd option.
although i can see the "trade martin" cenarios through based on the fact that he is a valuable trade piece every contender would be looking for. but saying he should be traded because he cant play with this team is just ignorant. who are u to say he cant take a limited role
also on tv, ive seen martin mentoring tyreke many time after a mistake. this shows he is sold out to be part of this team. not really sure where this "cisco can work better with tyreke" talk is coming from, being that cisco and tyreke have played exactly 0 games together.
tyreke and cisco are both ballhandlers too, k-mart can easily be taught the role of catch and shoot ray allen style 3rd option.
although i can see the "trade martin" cenarios through based on the fact that he is a valuable trade piece every contender would be looking for. but saying he should be traded because he cant play with this team is just ignorant. who are u to say he cant take a limited role
DocHolliday
Starter
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Martin doesn't need to be taught catch and shoot. That's when he's at his best. He can handle the ball, but not as well as Tyreke. Martin is a slasher and a scorer. Kicking out to Martin, or hitting him with a pass as he's cutting is EXACTlY what his role is supposed to be in ideal world. We didn't have someone to do that last year. The ideal world is under construction currently.
vistacruza_kings
Bench
WOW! how long did u spend ripping Kevin Martin?? arent u a moderator?? some of your logic isnt even true.
"he shoots too much" - kevin is known for his effecient scoring. the past 2 years he has only avg 15 shots a game, while scoring 23+
"and perhaps most importantly of all he plays the same positions as the very players that have revived us" - kevin martin plays SG, seems to me the log jam is at SF. sure u could say omri and donte play there sometime but when it come down to it, they are not guards, kevin is a guard.
"he does not pass" - he has averaged at least 2.5 ast over the last 3 years. that pretty good considering he does not dominate the ball. 2-3 ast is pretty average for a 2-guard.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
1) no he can't really handle, not for his position, and I never ever want to hear his handle compared to Reke's again.
2) that's Kevin's ideal world, not ours. The off the ball cutting works for him, not for an on the ball attacker like Reke. In fact all that does is get Kevin and his man directly in between Reke and where he wants to go.
3) spot shooting is fine. But we already have a lot of guys who do it well and who do a whole hell of a lot of other stuff for us as well. THAT'S the challenge, if there is even one. Not to teach Kevin how to spot shoot. But to teach him how to be a well rounded basketball player rather than a prima donnaish pure scorer gathering accolades and money while his teammates do all the hard work.
Larry89
Disgruntled Kings Fan
Garcia would seem the best for SG spot, he can help tyreke handle the ball, has defensive tenacity and playmaking ability and can run the fastbreak + spread floor with shooting.
He also gives the team some kind of leadership out there as a veteran, We start garcia because he has the size for that position, we also get to keep tyreke as the mismatch at PG/
He also gives the team some kind of leadership out there as a veteran, We start garcia because he has the size for that position, we also get to keep tyreke as the mismatch at PG/
DocHolliday
Starter
1) no he can't really handle, not for his position, and I never ever want to hear his handle compared to Reke's again.
2) that's Kevin's ideal world, not ours. The off the ball cutting works for him, not for an on the ball attacker like Reke. In fact all that does is get Kevin and his man directly in between Reke and where he wants to go.
3) spot shooting is fine. But we already have a lot of guys who do it well and who do a whole hell of a lot of other stuff for us as well. THAT'S the challenge, if there is even one. Not to teach Kevin how to spot shoot. But to teach him how to be a well rounded basketball player rather than a prima donnaish pure scorer gathering accolades and money while his teammates do all the hard work.
Were you saying tha Tyreke isn't a good ball handler???
And yes we DO need someone like that. We have other guys that do that?? Who does it as well as Kevin? Is anyone else on the team averaging between 20-30 points a game other than Tyreke? Oh, that's right...no one else is. Tyreke is an on the ball attacker, and he will have a sure option to dish to when the paint gets clogged as every team in the NBA is gonig to try to do against Tyreke now.
Yeah Martin isn't a great defender, he won't actually guard the best 2's, he'll guard one of their 3's and Donte will guard the 2's.
In the end I'm not really going to argue the point, it's your opinoin versus mine. Only time will tell.
Pretty much sums up my assessment, too... I think people really need to wait and see what happens before they decide a player is no longer valuable to our team.
vistacruza_kings
Bench
yea the most interesting flaw in k-marts game is that he needs other people to set him up, people like tyreke
A
AriesMar27
Guest
Garcia would seem the best for SG spot, he can help tyreke handle the ball, has defensive tenacity and playmaking ability and can run the fastbreak + spread floor with shooting.
He also gives the team some kind of leadership out there as a veteran, We start garcia because he has the size for that position, we also get to keep tyreke as the mismatch at PG
werent you just complaining about all of the dumb mistakes that sergio made last night? and now you want garcia starting at sg.... isnt that like the pot calling the kettle black? garcia leads the league in bonehead mistakes.
Well you are right here, Martin plays SG. That is his position, it's how he is effective. Great. Put him at SG and Evans at the point and Greene at SF. Only problem is you have just killed all the versatility that makes Evans and Greene special. The great thing about those two together is that you can match them with another PG, SG or SF as appropriate to create matchups in the Kings favor at all 3 spots. That requires role players not a 3rd man expecting 36-40+ minutes a night. This isn't about dogging Martin its about the Kings forging a new identity and where Martin fits into it. If we're talking about reducing him to a 20-24mpg role player then we are a) holding him back and b) drastically overpaying for that role.
At which point you ask can we move him for some help up front where we don't have these issues?
Larry89
Disgruntled Kings Fan
Wasn't everyone complaining about how much sergio has sucked lately?
Why do you try to make points by using other players as a point of emphasis?
Originally Posted by AriesMar27
oh yeah... he has missed a lot of them, though in his defense beno has missed more shots in this game than sergio... sergio isnt helping his case by splitting his freethrows.
SERGIO IS A POINT GUARD, GARCIA IS A SG TWO DIFFERENT POSITIONS
Why are you even brining this up right now? It's a thread about who is going to start at the three, unless of course you want Sergio to start at the 3
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
This argument obviously will go on all season. I think Kevin and Tyreke can play together, and Kevins return will actually help out everyone's offense. Guys are going to get more open looks. Tyreke won't have defense's sagging off nearly as much and crowding the lane, giving him more lanes to get to the hoop and create for others. His assists will go up when he has easier opportunities to get to the hoop, and clearer passing lanes. But we're all going to have to wait and see how it plays out.
I'd like to see Donte start at the 3, and have Omri be the first wing off the bench. Noc will get 15-20min a game, and I think Ime will be the one dropping out of the rotation. Sergio stinking it up lately helps answer the question of whether or not he's deserving of minutes when Kevin comes back. I think we'll have a 3 guard rotation for the most part, and Beno seems to play well with just about any lineup we throw out there. I like Beno coming in for Kev, and Reke moving to the 2. I also don't mind seeing Beno, Reke, and Kevin out there if the matchups work in our favor.
I'd like to see Donte start at the 3, and have Omri be the first wing off the bench. Noc will get 15-20min a game, and I think Ime will be the one dropping out of the rotation. Sergio stinking it up lately helps answer the question of whether or not he's deserving of minutes when Kevin comes back. I think we'll have a 3 guard rotation for the most part, and Beno seems to play well with just about any lineup we throw out there. I like Beno coming in for Kev, and Reke moving to the 2. I also don't mind seeing Beno, Reke, and Kevin out there if the matchups work in our favor.
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AriesMar27
Guest
Wasn't everyone complaining about how much sergio has sucked lately?
Why do you try to make points by using other players as a point of emphasis?
Originally Posted by AriesMar27
oh yeah... he has missed a lot of them, though in his defense beno has missed more shots in this game than sergio... sergio isnt helping his case by splitting his freethrows.
SERGIO IS A POINT GUARD, GARCIA IS A SG TWO DIFFERENT POSITIONS
Why are you even brining this up right now? It's a thread about who is going to start at the three, unless of course you want Sergio to start at the 3
im aware that they play 2 different positions, neither are sf. though garcia could play sf. i was just commenting on the fact that you think that garcia is the player you would want starting next to evans and he is more of a bonehead than sergio could ever be. garcia is not a starting quality player... a nice bench player but not a starter. we always talk about how players need to slow down, garcia is the poster child of overactive kings players. he was the first... and he still hasnt learned.
as far as me using other players to prove my point i was just pointing it out that beno had missed more shots than sergio. for those that were complaining about him missing shot after shot.
I've been interested to read this and your earlier comments and your past postings on Martin and his return. You've persuaded me to think you've got it pretty well pegged. Our only difference is that I think there is a real chance Kevin will surprise you particularly because I think he and Westphal will cause it to happen. I think everybody including the coaching staff and the FO are with you and possibly ahead. Let's hope.1) no he can't really handle, not for his position, and I never ever want to hear his handle compared to Reke's again.
2) that's Kevin's ideal world, not ours. The off the ball cutting works for him, not for an on the ball attacker like Reke. In fact all that does is get Kevin and his man directly in between Reke and where he wants to go.
3) spot shooting is fine. But we already have a lot of guys who do it well and who do a whole hell of a lot of other stuff for us as well. THAT'S the challenge, if there is even one. Not to teach Kevin how to spot shoot. But to teach him how to be a well rounded basketball player rather than a prima donnaish pure scorer gathering accolades and money while his teammates do all the hard work.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I actually wouldn't mind this at all. I think he's a perfect fit next to Tyreke for those very reasons. Plus he's only add to the toughness kick this teams been on lately.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
1) no he can't really handle, not for his position, and I never ever want to hear his handle compared to Reke's again.
2) that's Kevin's ideal world, not ours. The off the ball cutting works for him, not for an on the ball attacker like Reke. In fact all that does is get Kevin and his man directly in between Reke and where he wants to go.
3) spot shooting is fine. But we already have a lot of guys who do it well and who do a whole hell of a lot of other stuff for us as well. THAT'S the challenge, if there is even one. Not to teach Kevin how to spot shoot. But to teach him how to be a well rounded basketball player rather than a prima donnaish pure scorer gathering accolades and money while his teammates do all the hard work.
Not so true anymore. He's become quite good at ballhandling lately.
NME
Starter
If you were to design the qualities of the ideal backcourt-mate for Tyreke, Garcia might be one of the closest matches in the league.
At least until we perfect the wormhole generator necessary to bring the Doug Christie of 2002 to the present.
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