Spencer Hawes, Traveling, and the "New NBA"

Jerichoholic

Jerichoholic

Bench
After watching Spencer Hawes play more and more I've become increasing impressed by his skill set. He really does have a sweet outside shot, good passing ability, and a high basketball IQ. He even is rebounding and blocking shots better than I anticipated...just wait until this guy has a couple years of experience under his belt.

However there is another area of his game that impresses me more than all of that but scares me at the same time and that is his low post skills. He really does have a large variety of moves that he can pull off that I haven't seen in many years but the big question is...will he ever be allowed to showcase them in the "New NBA".

Many, many years ago there were a lot of skilled low post players in the league who did things that you see from Spencer routinely, it was common, it was expected. This "Old NBA" was showcased by hook shots, drop steps, spin moves, and ball fakes from big men who dominated the post. However that NBA is long gone and the "New NBA" which is full of 7 footers who can shoot has left the skilled low post player near extinct. There are only a few players left who even play the post at all and they are more about brute force than having low post moves...guys like Dwight Howard and Al Jefferson.

The point I'm trying to make is that I've seen Spencer get called for traveling about twice a game trying to make one of his low post moves and after watching the replay over and over I just don't see any traveling. No shuffling of the feet, no picking up of the pivot foot, no 3 steps...nothing. Is it that these players are so rare these days that the referees have completely forgotten about these moves, do they expect after a player makes more than 2 moves or holds onto the ball longer than 3 seconds that he must be traveling? If so this is wrong and will greatly affect Spencer's future in this league, it already seems to be making him more easily frustrated as he is complaining more and more, it's when this starts affecting his confidence that he will have a real problem.

So the question is, as the referees get more used to his style of play will they realize their error or will Spencer have to change his game to become a purely high post player like Brad Miller as he does not have the strength or athleticism to compete with force in the low post?
 
There are a few wrinkles in the modern NBA that change how the game is played dramatically. Wilt could average 22 rebounds a game in his career. He could average 50 points per game one year, stats were bloated. The "old" NBA was 5 separate games of one on one.

The change began with the "help" defense. No longer can a guy try move after move until he gets free (McHale) or have one or two signature moves that he could use over and over (Elvin Hayes). Two or three defenders show up to stop him because they know what will happen. This either was not allowed in the old NBA or there was a certain sissified feel to needing help to guard someone.

Times have changed. I know the traveling calls you mentioned. I thought they were legit. Maybe they weren't and I'll watch more closely. Those calls don't bother me as either the refs or Hawes will adjust.

I keep comparing him to McHale as that is the closest player to compare him to. Hawes says he has studied McHale. Almost makes me wish we could hire McHale to coach him. In any case, what he has picked up in a few short years with the aid of his uncle and father is remarkable. If given room to work with he can become the same successful black hole as McHale was.

I truly must be horribly optimistic as I see him as an upcoming star at the 5 position just as I think Artest is the best two way man in the league.

Perhaps it's because they are Kings but I think not.
 
I like the comparison to Kevin McHale, that seems about right. But why can't Spencer use move after move like McHale did to free himself? Even with help defenders there are post moves you can use to get open, I've seen him do it...then the travel call would come. During the game yesterday I even saw Theus talking to Spencer after one of the travel calls and he said, "only two moves Spence, no more than two moves." So are they trying to appease the referees by limiting themselves to that or is there a new rule that limits the amount of low post moves that can be done? I don't believe I've heard of anything like that but if there is please enlighten me.
 
I did the same thing and went back and checked the replays. Technically, they were all travelling. The problem Spencer has is that as soon as he gets muscled a little bit, he has a tendency to ever so slightly slide his pivot foot (usually less than an inch, but it is sliding a little). Ever since the emphasis on travelling with pump fakes on the perimeter as well as in the posts, the refs are really focusing on that pivot foot. I think it's a little ridiculous that you can't even have a twitch on your pivot foot, but a guy can lay a forarm on your back and push you. However, as long as the calls are consistent, Spencer will learn. He'll also adjust to the bodying that goes on down there.
 
spencer is still very much a prospect he needs to keep improving. He still has trouble dealing with double teams and holding onto the ball for to long.
 
He'll also get stronger.

I think Theus was probably just telling him to limit his moves BECAUSE of the tendency to slide the pivot foot and not because there is any rule. Pretty soon the refs may give him the breaks that most stars get and a little slide won't be called. Or more likely, the slide will be gone as he gets more strength and gets moved around less. The refs just have to get used to the idea that a player can have more than two moves. :)

Shaq introduced the giant bunny hop and I always wondered why that wasn't traveling. I presume it is because both feet landed at the same time so it was counted as one step. Pretty soon the refs assume both feet hit at the same time.

Can I add how grateful I am that the trade deadline is passed and we can discuss here and now basketball. :)
 
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Spencer's has some pretty slick footwork, coupled with more lower body strength, he could be the guy we run our offense through in a couple of years. Actually, I'll be counting on that.
 
Here's a quick Hawes question for those who've seen him play (I've only caught about 2 games this season cause I live in Lakerland)...

Going by boxscores he seems to be doing pretty good on the boards. So is he getting some lucky bounces or is he actually boxing out, getting position, and hustling to get those rebounds?
 
gunks said:
Here's a quick Hawes question for those who've seen him play (I've only caught about 2 games this season cause I live in Lakerland)...

Going by boxscores he seems to be doing pretty good on the boards. So is he getting some lucky bounces or is he actually boxing out, getting position, and hustling to get those rebounds?
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I think he is getting better position. He seems to find it easier to get into a position to box out and get a blocked shot or two. In other words, I think he's jamming the paint more than hanging around further away and playing, as I think Brick would call it, "weenie ball."

I could be corrected on this as I didn't follow last night's game til the bitter end but his blocked shots seem to be more on his man than off the ball blocks on someone else's man. He just sticks his arm up like Brad. Nothing wrong with the that.
 
Jerichoholic said:
I like the comparison to Kevin McHale, that seems about right. But why can't Spencer use move after move like McHale did to free himself? Even with help defenders there are post moves you can use to get open, I've seen him do it...then the travel call would come. During the game yesterday I even saw Theus talking to Spencer after one of the travel calls and he said, "only two moves Spence, no more than two moves." So are they trying to appease the referees by limiting themselves to that or is there a new rule that limits the amount of low post moves that can be done? I don't believe I've heard of anything like that but if there is please enlighten me.
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Why he can't move yet like McHale is he only had 1 year of college ball and McHale had 4 and McHale played for the high flying Celtics.

"Only two moves" is an attempt by the Coach to keep Hawes from trying to do too much against superior NBA players vs. what he got in college and with only 2 moves he cuts down the likelyhood of travelling, moving his pivot foot. Most good NBA players take only 1-2 moves to make a shot. Any more allows the other team to double and triple team him.
 
gunks said:
Here's a quick Hawes question for those who've seen him play (I've only caught about 2 games this season cause I live in Lakerland)...

Going by boxscores he seems to be doing pretty good on the boards. So is he getting some lucky bounces or is he actually boxing out, getting position, and hustling to get those rebounds?
Click to expand...

He really seems to be doing a good job boxing out and getting position, I wouldn't say he hustles as much as I would like but he does kind of have a nose for the ball, which is a great thing.

Also, his blocked shots for the most part are either on his own man or on help defense when a penetrator player gets by one of our wings. This is also a good sign, it's not like he waits behind a better defender like Artest and just prepares to get a highlight block.
 
I would think that Spencer Hawes can use those moves he has (which aren't used much anymore) to exploit some of the shortcomings a defender has in the "current NBA". So I see having him as a plus right now.

I was WRONG when saying he was a bad pick at the time. I guess because I wanted to get a PF in here and wanted Petrie to trade more than ever during that draft, but sitting back and looking at it now I am happy with the pick.
 
i dont think that the new nba is leaving out post moves at all; one of the most successful franchises in current nba history has a 7 foot post player as the anchor. while strong, tim duncan has nowhere near the athleticism of the guys you have mentioned.

also, one of the best young guys to play currently, and one of my favorites, and one who has a chance to be the best center in the nba eventually, is bynum. he is strong, but he has great footwork, and he is all post moves.

post players with post skills are not as prevalent, sure. but to say that spencer hawes is having it taken away from him is a little bit unfair to the other guys imo. seeing the games that i could, spencer is still unsure of himself. and most of the time he doesnt establish a good position to be in the post, if he is even there in the first place. just look at him bouncing around in there by himself, he looks lost, and thinks that by constantly moving, it will make up for it.

he needs to get stronger, and if he fails to do that, it is no one's fault but his own. once he establishes that, he can take more time in the post. i have not seen these traveling calls you are speaking of, but could it be more of a myopia than anything else? these could be rookie calls, or it could be because of spencer's own jitterishness. even when ive seen him in the post, AND putting up a shot, AND it goes in, it seems rushed.
 
Spencer pulled out some very nice footwork the other night. One of those moves I don't even use and I'm a post junkie. It looks like Spencer is getting muscled pretty easily out there. He's purely finesse with zero power. Even finesse moves have to incorporate some elements of power like the bump and go.

At this point his footwork is amazing, but his body control and use is nowhere near as good. If he wants to remain a finesse post player like Olajuwon than he probably shouldn't add on more weight and strength, but focus on superior conditioning and plyometric. I saw him pull out a very nice carry over crossover as well as hitting the long ball. If he wants to be a dominant post threat than he'll need what I specialize in: hooks and faders. He wouldn't need to do all those pivot moves if he used a simple step hook with one or two moves. A sky hook will always work. If he combines elements of both finesse and power moves he should be able to beat double teams regularly and even a few triple if he can play three moves ahead. Hire me to teach him the hook and fader variations and body usage Maloofs!
 
spencer has good foot work for only one year in college. and earlier in the season i didnt see the foot work that i see now, hes becoming more confident in his foot work as hes playing more, but i agree about getting the traveling called on him may make him lose his confidence him just shooting humpers.

also, about his streangth, yeah i agree he has none compare to other bigs, but hes only 19, his body is developing still, but he still needs to gain mussle
 
I had a dream while I sipped my first coffee this morning: a front line of Hawes, Shelden, and Salmons with Brad, Cisco and Mikki off the bench. Somehow that dream had Hawes being a cross between Gasol and McHale and getting 20 ppg, Shelden being a monster rebounding and blocking shots and still getting 15 ppg and Beno getting 8-10 assists and Kevin averaging 27 pts and getting 6 rebs. Then my coffee got cold but when it was hot, it was hot!!! :D
 
CruzDude said:
I had a dream while I sipped my first coffee this morning: a front line of Hawes, Shelden, and Salmons with Brad, Cisco and Mikki off the bench. Somehow that dream had Hawes being a cross between Gasol and McHale and getting 20 ppg, Shelden being a monster rebounding and blocking shots and still getting 15 ppg and Beno getting 8-10 assists and Kevin averaging 27 pts and getting 6 rebs. Then my coffee got cold but when it was hot, it was hot!!! :D
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We call that type of dream a "hallucination", and I suspect somebody spiked your drink.
 
Jerichoholic said:
I like the comparison to Kevin McHale, that seems about right. But why can't Spencer use move after move like McHale did to free himself? Even with help defenders there are post moves you can use to get open, I've seen him do it...then the travel call would come. During the game yesterday I even saw Theus talking to Spencer after one of the travel calls and he said, "only two moves Spence, no more than two moves." So are they trying to appease the referees by limiting themselves to that or is there a new rule that limits the amount of low post moves that can be done? I don't believe I've heard of anything like that but if there is please enlighten me.
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Theus only wants two moves because the defensive help can get there after move two, and maybe because he wants to simplify the game for him because doesn't have the cognitive power to see the floor like he will in 2-3 years. It looks to me like the spacing of the other Kings players is not very good when Spencer is in the game; they need to give him more room to operate. Barring injury, I think he's going to be the best center the Kings have ever had.
 
rhythmless said:
i dont think that the new nba is leaving out post moves at all; one of the most successful franchises in current nba history has a 7 foot post player as the anchor. while strong, tim duncan has nowhere near the athleticism of the guys you have mentioned.

also, one of the best young guys to play currently, and one of my favorites, and one who has a chance to be the best center in the nba eventually, is bynum. he is strong, but he has great footwork, and he is all post moves.

post players with post skills are not as prevalent, sure. but to say that spencer hawes is having it taken away from him is a little bit unfair to the other guys imo. seeing the games that i could, spencer is still unsure of himself. and most of the time he doesnt establish a good position to be in the post, if he is even there in the first place. just look at him bouncing around in there by himself, he looks lost, and thinks that by constantly moving, it will make up for it.

he needs to get stronger, and if he fails to do that, it is no one's fault but his own. once he establishes that, he can take more time in the post. i have not seen these traveling calls you are speaking of, but could it be more of a myopia than anything else? these could be rookie calls, or it could be because of spencer's own jitterishness. even when ive seen him in the post, AND putting up a shot, AND it goes in, it seems rushed.
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You make a lot of great points here. Tim Duncan for instance is definitely not a super athletic big man but he makes up for it in strength and smarts. He always positioned himself well to get easy layups as well as having a nice little hook shot, and a great bank shot to keep defenses honest. He is so smooth in his play that he seems to move in slow motion but the defenders never get there. And he rarely even uses two moves, usually just one.

Spencer Hawes I admit does need to get stronger and more comfortable, he's only 19 and a rookie so it's understandable. Perhaps he feels the need to use extra moves because he gets pushed around so much and he can't muscle them back. And I know what you mean about the jitterishness, he feels that he needs to beat the defenders instead of having the confidence in himself to go around or through them when they get there.

From what I've seen I think Spencer has the potential to be a very good if not great center. His shot will be much better with much more range than Duncan or Bynum and if he gets strong enough you combine his post game and passing ability and he will be extremely tough to guard even with a double team.
 
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