So...Hawes wasn't the problem

[Showtime]

I know how frustrating it can be to root for a team that is stuck in mediocrity with no end in sight (also a raider fan). I know with frustration comes anger. I know that anger and patience don't coexist, and both contribute to people placing blame and creating scapegoats.

Last season it was Spencer. He was too soft. He didn't rebound enough. He didn't block enough shots. He wasn't the inside presence you wanted. He was everything wrong with the team, and if they only got a shotblocking, rebounding presence inside, they would be miles better defensively and take a major step forward.

Well...that isn't happening. They bulked up the team, and don't use their power. They got paint defenders and size down low, but they can't play well two games in a row. Their offense looks downright non-existent. Too many times the kings look totally lost on how to create a good shot and who to give the ball to.

So...I think Hawes and some other guys got too much blame and too much hate. For what he was, he at least helped the team in some areas. He helped spread the floor, opening things up for Evans on the drive. He knocked down some jumpers and forced teams to play him on the elbow, unlike Landry, Cousins, or Sammy D who aren't consistent enough to do that game to game yet.

But now, it seems Landry and Paul are the new scapegoats. They are the new targets of frustration for the fans. And that's something I dislike, because there are a lot more reasons why this team isn't more successful, and there is plenty of blame to go around. Firing Paul or trading Landry won't solve the problems the team is having, just like getting rid of Hawes and Noc didn't magically solve the team's problems, because they weren't the only problems. So, stop overreacting and taking all your frustration out on them, because not only does it do no good, but creating scapegoats often leads to further disappointment down the road.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I know how frustrating it can be to root for a team that is stuck in mediocrity with no end in sight (also a raider fan). I know with frustration comes anger. I know that anger and patience don't coexist, and both contribute to people placing blame and creating scapegoats.

Last season it was Spencer. He was too soft. He didn't rebound enough. He didn't block enough shots. He wasn't the inside presence you wanted. He was everything wrong with the team, and if they only got a shotblocking, rebounding presence inside, they would be miles better defensively and take a major step forward.

Well...that isn't happening. They bulked up the team, and don't use their power. They got paint defenders and size down low, but they can't play well two games in a row. Their offense looks downright non-existent. Too many times the kings look totally lost on how to create a good shot and who to give the ball to.

So...I think Hawes and some other guys got too much blame and too much hate. For what he was, he at least helped the team in some areas. He helped spread the floor, opening things up for Evans on the drive. He knocked down some jumpers and forced teams to play him on the elbow, unlike Landry, Cousins, or Sammy D who aren't consistent enough to do that game to game yet.

But now, it seems Landry and Paul are the new scapegoats. They are the new targets of frustration for the fans. And that's something I dislike, because there are a lot more reasons why this team isn't more successful, and there is plenty of blame to go around. Firing Paul or trading Landry won't solve the problems the team is having, just like getting rid of Hawes and Noc didn't magically solve the team's problems, because they weren't the only problems. So, stop overreacting and taking all your frustration out on them, because not only does it do no good, but creating scapegoats often leads to further disappointment down the road.

Exactly. One or two players or the coach is never the sole problem. Kings fans (and Kings ownership/management) should have learned that by now. You win and lose as a team. I'd still like to see Landry traded for a shooter but not because I think The Kings' woes are his fault. The truth is, this team is just under-talented to compete in the NBA. They're relying on second tier players like Landry, Garcia, and Udrih to be go to guys and that just won't get it done. They have no all star caliber players and you can't win in the NBA without a few all stars. Maybe Evans and Cousins will get to all star level eventually but they aren't there yet. I think a lot of fans, in their excitement, overestimated the talent level of this team. In hindsight, I know I did. The fact is, barring an addition of an all star caliber player or two, this team is still a few seasons away from being good.

 

[IfAt1st]

Good thread.

It is important for Kings fans (and KF's) to realize how much they have demonized certain people over the last couple years especially.

It was Beno 2 years ago, Hawes last year, and now it's Landry/PW (and they go back to Beno cause they're used to doing it).

Newsflash - the problems with the Kings aren't as simplistic as many Kings fans want to bother with.
It is easier for them to simply blame one or 2 people and think that's what's stopping their team from becoming what it should be.

When I was at the Mavs game, it was shocking to hear the level of simplistic and dunderheaded thinking being yelled out by supposed "Kings fans".

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

and now it's Landry/PW

The funny thing about that, is that before Landry, it was Martin. They got rid of Martin for Landry, which seemed like something the majority of fans were happy about at the time, now those same fans have already turned on Landry.

 

[Asaf]

The funny thing about that, is that before Landry, it was Martin. They got rid of Martin for Landry, which seemed like something the majority of fans were happy about at the time, now those same fans have already turned on Landry.

I don't think it's fans turning on Landry, or turning on Tyreke for that matter, as some posters suggested is happening. I think it is more frustration from how Westphal is using these two player (and the rest of the players of course, but in their case it just screams wrong). Landry was a beast in Houston as a 6th man, and was a serious candidate for 6th man of the year. It has been obvious for a while that he is not cut out to be a starter due to his lack of size, and limited defensive and rebounding skills. So why force the issue and make him a starter or a top scoring option when you can get so much more out of him in a 6th man role?

Same with Tyreke. One of Westphal's dumbest decisions, and the one that will eventually cost him his job, was handing the team over to Tyreke WAY before he was ready. Tyreke has great talent, but he is several seasons away from developing skills that he is currently missing, that will allow him to use his talent in a way that will help the team win. Contrary to the popular mantra around here, we did NOT win last season when Tyreke was beasting. Our record last season since January, which was about the time when Westphal gave Tyreke the keys to the team, was 11-41. And yet that play against Arenas and the buzzer beater at Milwaukee seems to have created the illusion that Tyreke was winning dozens of games for us, when in fact he was responsible for a lot more losses than wins. Again, I am not putting that on him, but it's the coach's fault for putting that superstardom chase ahead of Tyreke's development.

I think this roster is worth SO MUCH MORE than it is showing. We have enough talent right now for 30-40 wins, but the way our players are being used just makes absolutely no sense. If we had an unbalanced, untalented roster, I could try to understand Westphal's strange handling of the players. But the pieces are all there - true, not allstars or playoff pieces - but the pieces to play coherent and youthful basketball and achieve a respectable record. We have good enough players at EVERY POSITION, including in the second unit, to be able to get a lot more wins than we have been getting, especially with the schedule we've had so far. We are not winning because Westphal refuses to make the most obvious, easy-to-make decisions, and instead is intent on making the most backwards, unreasonable, mind-boggling dumbass decisions.

 

[beb0p]

The funny thing about that, is that before Landry, it was Martin. They got rid of Martin for Landry, which seemed like something the majority of fans were happy about at the time, now those same fans have already turned on Landry.

Not me, I was not happy; but I sort of lived with it thinking it was probably a cost-cutting move, but talent-wise, it was not an equal trade.

Hawes for Dalembert just left me shaking my head. Again I think it is another cost-cutting, but you don't give up on a skilled 7-footer in his early twenties for Dalembert! Particularly when you can just sign Daly outright in the offseason. I thought Hawes, for all his flaws, was developing nicely. A high post center you can run plays thru to compliment your non-PG PG. I also thought that Cousins and Hawes can play together, defense be damned. A combo of Reke, Martin, Hawes, and Cousins can be very entertaining in a I-can't-stop-you-but-I-can-outgun-you kind of way with two big men who can pass and two guards who can score.

The current team is exactly what most Kings fans deserved. It is exactly the tough, physical, rugged, bully team that many fans wanted. A team that can hold opponents to under 100 and lose.

As far as I'm concerned, every player on this team is the problem: from Tyreke Evans to Darnell Jackson. They have to play smarter, better, more team oriented, less selfish.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

The current team is exactly what most Kings fans deserved. It is exactly the tough, physical, rugged, bully team that many fans wanted. A team that can hold opponents to under 100 and lose.

I think the mistake many fans (and possibly ownership/management, as well) made, was thinking that just having a tough, physical team that can rebound and defend would translate to wins. It's almost as if people just thought, OK, let's do the exact opposite of what we've been doing for the last 5 years and that will result in a good team. But the problem with the Kings teams of the last 5 years wasn't only lack of defense and toughness anymore than the problem with this current team is only lack of shooting and scoring. It was an overall lack of talent. The whole "defense wins championships" cliché is a complete misnomer. Defense only gets you somewhere when you have adequate offense to go with it. It takes balance to build a winning team.

Look at any top tier team, none of them get by on defense and toughness alone. You'll actually get further with offense minus defense than you will with defense minus offense, the D'Antoni Suns are an example of this. Even a great defensive team like The Celtics still need great shooters like Allen and Pierce to win. That's why I was so in hopes that The Kings would acquire someone like J.J. Redick, Mike Miller, or Kyle Korver in free agency, because they would have rounded out the roster and given them some of the balance they so desperately need. Or......they could have just kept Martin, lol.

 

[pshn80]

Neither Hawes, Nocioni, nor Evans, Landry not Beno nor Westphal nor any one of the rest is THE PROBLEM. Losing and poor play is the problem. It's getting better and will continue in that direction. It does get tiresome to continually hear how absolutely dreadful each of the above is, day after day. But I will continue to read it to find the gems in between. Come on, Kings, win a few.

 

[swisshh]

Whats with all these spin control threads?

Anyways, ask Philly fans about Hawes. Dally for him was highway robbery. Hawes has been trash this year.

 

[nickmcclure]

So...Hawes wasn't the problem

No, but he wasn't the solution either. I applaud the trade for Dalembert

 

[Bricklayer]

Has was definitely A problem. That problem has been cured. Mostly. Landry's inability to rebound or defend is an unfortunate holdover and the jury is out if his scoring can justify it. But in general one of the most promising things this team has going forward is size and physicality on the frontline. But there are more holes in the dike.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I think the mistake many fans (and possibly ownership/management, as well) made, was thinking that just having a tough, physical team that can rebound and defend would translate to wins. It's almost as if people just thought, OK, let's do the exact opposite of what we've been doing for the last 5 years and that will result in a good team. But the problem with the Kings teams of the last 5 years wasn't only lack of defense and toughness anymore than the problem with this current team is only lack of shooting and scoring. It was an overall lack of talent. The whole "defense wins championships" cliché is a complete misnomer. Defense only gets you somewhere when you have adequate offense to go with it. It takes balance to build a winning team.

Look at any top tier team, none of them get by on defense and toughness alone. You'll actually get further with offense minus defense than you will with defense minus offense, the D'Antoni Suns are an example of this. Even a great defensive team like The Celtics still need great shooters like Allen and Pierce to win. That's why I was so in hopes that The Kings would acquire someone like J.J. Redick, Mike Miller, or Kyle Korver in free agency, because they would have rounded out the roster and given them some of the balance they so desperately need. Or......they could have just kept Martin, lol.

Detroit when they beat the Lakers for the championship comes to mind. Every San Antonio team that was not comprised of shooters but rather defense and clutch scoring also comes to mind.

 

[Kingsguy881]

No, but he wasn't the solution either. I applaud the trade for Dalembert

Cosigned.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Still do the Dalembert trade 10 times out of 10.

Every team has a scapegoat. Even in the glory days it was Hedo's inconsistency, Peja's softness, Vlade's stamina, or Christie's jump shot.

 

[Asaf]

Has was definitely A problem. That problem has been cured. Mostly. Landry's inability to rebound or defend is an unfortunate holdover and the jury is out if his scoring can justify it. But in general one of the most promising things this team has going forward is size and physicality on the frontline. But there are more holes in the dike.

Funny, I would never be able to tell that from the way we are playing...

 

[bajaden]

Whats with all these spin control threads?

Anyways, ask Philly fans about Hawes. Dally for him was highway robbery. Hawes has been trash this year.

As is my nature, I'm not going to call Hawes trash. However he is really sturggling in Philly, and his playing time has diminished. I liked Hawes when we drafted him. I liked his skill level. But clearly, he just wasn't a whole lot better in his third year than he was in his first year. So as much as I liked his potential, I thought trading him for Dalembert, one of the better defensive centers in the league was a steal. Surround Dalembert with the right offensive players and he would be fine. But on a team struggling to score at times, he sometimes becomes a liability.

Look, Westphal is the band leader of our merry little band. Its his job to make them all play together and make beautiful music. So far I've heard a couple of good tunes, but I've also heard a lot of bad notes. This isn't about picking on particular players. I have nothing against Landry. I like him as a player. So let me ask you a question. Is he playing as well as when we traded for him? Is he playing better? Or has he regressed? Does he at times look uncomfortable? Frustated or uncertain? Would Jerry Sloan have him guard Dirk Nowitzki?

Landry is best in a halfcourt offense. Its not that he can't play in a running offense, its just that his skills are best suited for the halfcourt. But then it comes down to matchups. In Houston he came off the bench, and was usually matched up against another bench player. And usually he had the advantage. As a bench player, he's clearly above average. As a starter, he's not. And it appears to me that Westphal is trying to make him a panacea for all that ails his position, and he's not doing Landry any favors by doing so.

Number one job of a coach. Put players in the best position to succeed. If you think Westphal has done that, then you have to find fault with all the players. If not, then he has to take a substantial amount of the blame. I could go on endlessly with examples of mistakes that I think he's made. But I won't bore you with them. I've already said that he has a tough job. But it is his job! So far, I'm not impressed. By the way he just tied the all time record for the worse start of a season by any other coach, except Dick Motta. If he adds one more loss he'll be the proud owner of the all time record. He's already moved ahead of Dick Motta as the coach with the worse record having coached at least 100 games.

 

[Kingsguy881]

As is my nature, I'm not going to call Hawes trash. However he is really sturggling in Philly, and his playing time has diminished. I liked Hawes when we drafted him. I liked his skill level. But clearly, he just wasn't a whole lot better in his third year than he was in his first year. So as much as I liked his potential, I thought trading him for Dalembert, one of the better defensive centers in the league was a steal. Surround Dalembert with the right offensive players and he would be fine. But on a team struggling to score at times, he sometimes becomes a liability.

Look, Westphal is the band leader of our merry little band. Its his job to make them all play together and make beautiful music. So far I've heard a couple of good tunes, but I've also heard a lot of bad notes. This isn't about picking on particular players. I have nothing against Landry. I like him as a player. So let me ask you a question. Is he playing as well as when we traded for him? Is he playing better? Or has he regressed? Does he at times look uncomfortable? Frustated or uncertain? Would Jerry Sloan have him guard Dirk Nowitzki?

Landry is best in a halfcourt offense. Its not that he can't play in a running offense, its just that his skills are best suited for the halfcourt. But then it comes down to matchups. In Houston he came off the bench, and was usually matched up against another bench player. And usually he had the advantage. As a bench player, he's clearly above average. As a starter, he's not. And it appears to me that Westphal is trying to make him a panacea for all that ails his position, and he's not doing Landry any favors by doing so.

Number one job of a coach. Put players in the best position to succeed. If you think Westphal has done that, then you have to find fault with all the players. If not, then he has to take a substantial amount of the blame. I could go on endlessly with examples of mistakes that I think he's made. But I won't bore you with them. I've already said that he has a tough job. But it is his job! So far, I'm not impressed. By the way he just tied the all time record for the worse start of a season by any other coach, except Dick Motta. If he adds one more loss he'll be the proud owner of the all time record. He's already moved ahead of Dick Motta as the coach with the worse record having coached at least 100 games.

Time to call in Garry St. Jean.

edit: Might as well get Tim Roye back too. Bring it WAY back.

 

[Bricklayer]

Funny, I would never be able to tell that from the way we are playing...

We're 5th in the league in shotblocking and rebounding (8th in rebounding differential). Its kind of what we do good. And we've begun to see Demarcus's post game possibilities. That's before we get to Whiteside sitting over there in reserve. And of of that is with Landry eating up major minutes contributing basically nothing to either cause. Those are kind of the things we do well. Everything else, not so much.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Detroit when they beat the Lakers for the championship comes to mind. Every San Antonio team that was not comprised of shooters but rather defense and clutch scoring also comes to mind.

The Pistons had an incredibly balanced starting 5 where no one was a superstar but everyone was a borderline all star and everyone but Ben Wallace could score in double figures every night. The Spurs have a hall of fame level player backed up by two all star caliber players. They've also had some pretty good shooters, like Bruce Bowen.

 

[nickmcclure]

Still do the Dalembert trade 10 times out of 10.

Every team has a scapegoat. Even in the glory days it was Hedo's inconsistency, Peja's softness, Vlade's stamina, or Christie's jump shot.

True dat, it also got NOOOOOOOOO!cioni off the books. BTW that's what I screamed at the TV every time he attempted to make a shot for himself.

 

[Bricklayer]

The Pistons had an incredibly balanced starting 5 where no one was a superstar but everyone was a borderline all star and everyone but Ben Wallace could score in double figures every night. The Spurs have a hall of fame level player backed up by two all star caliber players. They've also had some pretty good shooters, like Bruce Bowen.

Once you start claiming those sorts of teams won with "balance" then basically every team in the NBA has balance.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Once you start claiming those sorts of teams won with "balance" then basically every team in the NBA has balance.

OK let me rephrase that. It takes balance and a pretty high level of talent.

 

[pshn80]

Still do the Dalembert trade 10 times out of 10.

Every team has a scapegoat. Even in the glory days it was Hedo's inconsistency, Peja's softness, Vlade's stamina, or Christie's jump shot.

Yes. The trade. Did that solve our problem? No, but it helped. Scapegoats? Yes, at least one or two a day when we lose. We're getting better even with Landry, Beno, Tyreke, Greene, Omri, etc. plus scapegoat-of-the-day.

 

[swisshh]

OK let me rephrase that. It takes balance and a pretty high level of talent.

And a HOF coach

 

[beb0p]

I may be one of the few fans who don't have a problem with all the losing. I've always wanted the Kings to get one more top pick in the lottery, to get that third star that most great team needs. Harrison Barnes, here we come!

At any rate, one thing that did confused me about this team is that I am not sure if they are developing youth or trying to win now. Maybe they're trying to do both at the same time (and not working very well) . The team, as you recall, was on a nice streak at the beginning of last season, when Noc and KT were getting minutes and the Kings were overachieving. Noc, in particular, was playing like I've never seen him played. Then suddenly Noc was out of the starting lineup after a couple of bad games and KT was soon forgotten after getting some mins. Ok fine, maybe we were developing youth, sending Noc and KT to the doghouse in favor of Greene, Casspi, and Brockman. But the team was losing by then, and little surprise. You take away two vets who are playing well and insert young dudes who didn't know what the hell was going on, what did you think was gonna happen? But for the youth movement, it was worth it, I guess.

And then, in the middle of it, Petrie got Landry which essentially put a dent in the youth movement by sending JT to the bench. Which, I can only chalk it up to impatience. In fact, all the mercurial nature of the last two years should mostly be attributed to impatience and knee-jerk reaction. That to me, is the most disappointing part.

I don't care about the losing, but I do care that the team is losing with no purpose.

But this will turn out alright when we get one of the top three pick.

Btw, I don't think Hawes is doing too badly in Philly, they just have a system where they like to go small with Brand at the center and four quick little guys around him. It's not Hawes' fault, in fact, it seems Doug Collins has taken a liking to Hawes by making him the starter and actually kept him in there long enough.

 

[Entity]

We need Beno and Casspi to play defense like Head and Greene. or Vice versa. Oh we need JT to have the patience of Landry would help also. As far as Beno with the defense of head that Kyle Weaver fits the bill kinda. I would trade JT haveing patience as long as cousins keeps developing his post offense it looks good so far at 20 years old.