SI: Marty Burns -- Which NBA vets deserve enshrinement in Springfield?
- Thread starter coolhandluke
- Start date
If Webber hadn't done the stint in Philadelphia, if he hadn't collapsed in a heap in Dallas, if...
I'm thinking it would take a stellar performance in the finals for him to even get to the "bubble" status, which is a shame. Guys like Chris Webber don't come along that often. We were very lucky to have had him.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
That was always the book on Webb: needed a title to get back in the conversation. Not sure whether one now as a roleplayer would do it or not.
Note: Burns is not a Webb fan, so take it with a grain. But I do think Webb is probably on the outside looking in.
Still amazing to me that in 3 years Nash has gone froma guy that you would have just laughed at in this conversation, to a guy being listed (accroing to Burns) above Kidd and Payton. All of his guys int eh first two lists will make it BTW, I'm thinking TMac and Big Ben (title) would have the best shot of the rest. And then maybe Webb. Maybe.
Note: Burns is not a Webb fan, so take it with a grain. But I do think Webb is probably on the outside looking in.
Still amazing to me that in 3 years Nash has gone froma guy that you would have just laughed at in this conversation, to a guy being listed (accroing to Burns) above Kidd and Payton. All of his guys int eh first two lists will make it BTW, I'm thinking TMac and Big Ben (title) would have the best shot of the rest. And then maybe Webb. Maybe.
mcsluggo
Starter
I'm kinda curious what puts mutumbo above mourning, especially the way he phrased it: "Early Hall potential has since faded away"...
it seems like Mutumbo, who arguably outplayed Shaq in last year's playoff/title run for Miami, has been strengthening his position lately. While mutumbo is, well, still in the league (that is about all you can say about him lately).
it seems like Mutumbo, who arguably outplayed Shaq in last year's playoff/title run for Miami, has been strengthening his position lately. While mutumbo is, well, still in the league (that is about all you can say about him lately).
Come on, Doc; did you watch any Rockets games while Yao was out? Deke channelled 1994 for about twenty games; guy was averaging about 7-8 points, 12+ rebounds, and about two blocks a game... he's still got it, no question.
vladetomiller
Bench
I dont understand why Nash gets so much love from everyone.
I would rate Payton and Kidd about Nash, these guys just live in today and dont take the past into consideration. Nash was an average player throughout his career, who has had two great seasons and thats all. He cannot play defense and cant rebound. He is a good shooter and a great passer in the PHX team and thats about it.
Kidd should have won the MVP award a couple of time as well and then stern was in love with duncan and decided to go that way. Not a great shooter, but very good passer, defender and rebounder and has been consistent with that throughout his career and not just two seasons like nash.
Payton has also had a stellar career, excellent defender, good PG and average/streaky shooter. But dint have to shoot much as his game was back to the basket and was very good posting up PGs which was effective before the rule change.
Shows how the media has fallen in love with just fancy passing and have no regards for defense or rebounding. I dont care if Payton and Kidd are in the first list or not, they are better than Nash and should be above nash or atleast on par in that list.
That list is so awful after the first 5 that its not even worth talking about
I would rate Payton and Kidd about Nash, these guys just live in today and dont take the past into consideration. Nash was an average player throughout his career, who has had two great seasons and thats all. He cannot play defense and cant rebound. He is a good shooter and a great passer in the PHX team and thats about it.
Kidd should have won the MVP award a couple of time as well and then stern was in love with duncan and decided to go that way. Not a great shooter, but very good passer, defender and rebounder and has been consistent with that throughout his career and not just two seasons like nash.
Payton has also had a stellar career, excellent defender, good PG and average/streaky shooter. But dint have to shoot much as his game was back to the basket and was very good posting up PGs which was effective before the rule change.
Shows how the media has fallen in love with just fancy passing and have no regards for defense or rebounding. I dont care if Payton and Kidd are in the first list or not, they are better than Nash and should be above nash or atleast on par in that list.
That list is so awful after the first 5 that its not even worth talking about
acisking
Bench
I think Steve will get in by virtue of his MYP awards. As the author points out on the webpage, every player to win an MVP award has been inducted into the Hall of Fame. Winning two would - by that logic - garuntee Nash a spot regardless of how he performed prior to that point.
I do agree that both Peyton and Kidd are better all around players than Nash - especially on the defensive end.
However, I have noticed in many of your posts that you use Stern as the reason that some "injustice" has happened. Stern may be a bit overbearing at times, but overall he has helped the NBA and - more importantly - he is not responsible for half the things you are blaming him for. Whether Kidd deserved to win the MVP or not is up for debate (I personally think he should have), but it has nothing to do with the supposed fact that "Stern was in love with Duncan." The MVP is decided by a panel of voters...not just one man.
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4cwebb
Starter
How does Burns really separate Dirk and KG at this point, especially considering KG's complete inability to turn his stats into success for his team?
I agree with what has been posted about CWebb. He was on the cusp prior to his injury, but his Philly time has in my mind removed him from the discussion.
And with respect to Ben Wallace, I would hope he doesn't go into the Hall of Fame prior to Rodman.
I agree with what has been posted about CWebb. He was on the cusp prior to his injury, but his Philly time has in my mind removed him from the discussion.
And with respect to Ben Wallace, I would hope he doesn't go into the Hall of Fame prior to Rodman.
Widowmaker2k
Bench
Overall, KG is still the better player then Dirk is, though I agree that Dirk's playoff success should be weighed in.
Dirk Career Averages:
22.3 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 2.6 AST, 1 STL, 1 BLK
Best Season:
26.1 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 3.1 AST, 1.2 STL, 1.5 BLK
KG Career Averages:
20.6 PPG, 11.4 RPG, 4.5 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.7 BLK
Best Season:
24.2 PPG, 13.9 RPG, 5.0 AST, 1.5 STL, 2.2 BLK
Though Dirk is by far the better shooter, KG has the better post game and defense.
bigbadred00
Starter
According to basketball reference which has done a pretty good job in simulating HOF persons, Webber should likely be in.
http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leadershof.htm
Webber right now has a score of 138. There are only 2 persons with higher scores all time that are currently not in, they are Paul Westphal and Artis Gilmore. 85% of players higher than 135 are in the NBA HOF. If he had a score of 160, he'd be a 99% lock to be in the HOF. His score could drop with decreased efficiency but I think you guys are giving less credit then Webber deserves.
http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leadershof.htm
Webber right now has a score of 138. There are only 2 persons with higher scores all time that are currently not in, they are Paul Westphal and Artis Gilmore. 85% of players higher than 135 are in the NBA HOF. If he had a score of 160, he'd be a 99% lock to be in the HOF. His score could drop with decreased efficiency but I think you guys are giving less credit then Webber deserves.
bigbadred00
Starter
MVP vs Non-MVP. That should end this year though. I also don't think it's KG's fault that Avery Johnson is a great coach and Cuban has been a damn good owner. Dallas GM >>>>> Minnesota GM the last 6 or so years.
4cwebb
Starter
Wow, I had forgotten about KG's MVP. That's the separation (and I agree that it will probably end this year).
And while I agree that KG is a better defender, the gap is not nearly as wide as it used to be between he and Dirk, and Dirk's offense (in all aspects) is so superior to KG's that imho it's not even a valid comparison.
I'm still on the fence about Avery Johnson's great coaching ability --- after all, he was involved in one of the worst choke jobs by a team in NBA Finals history. Yes, he was in the Finals, and yes, he won 100 games as a coach faster than anyone, but he was basically handed a 55+ win team per season at the outset. He has improved on a very good product, but much like Phil Jackson, I'd be interested to see how he performed with a mediocre product.
bigbadred00
Starter
He took a team that didn't play any D and forced it upon it. I think he's done an amazing job. This team had a very similar roster a couple of years ago.
vladetomiller
Bench
To Some extent that is correct, but as you said the roster changed.
Nash is gone, the biggest weak link on defense where teams can exploit on every play is not there and they have two average to good defenders and harris can really be a pest on defense sometimes.
Bradley / lafrentz are gone and replaced with Dampier who was good anyways. But Avery did make him better than what he was in GS
Josh Howard is a better individual defender as well
Dirk still doesnt play defense and can be exploited, but the game plan changed where Dirk used to get on the fast break with nellie and now he stays home for rebounds.
Overall some good job by Avery and some personnel changes I would say.
4cwebb
Starter
I disagree with this statement. Dirk was a worthless defensive player when he first emerged as an offensive talent, but he's been a pretty solid rebounder for a few years now (even back when Nellie was coaching), and his defense is nowhere near as suspect as it used to be. He's not Tim Duncan, but he's not that team's weak link, either.
DaMan
Starter
I have a problem with T-mac, Payton, kidd, Dirk, and Mutombo, not being no brainers but you have Nash as one. God, Nash is a good player but he is not better then any of those players. I really don't care how many mvp titles the guy has he can't do what those players do for their teams. I would bet all the money in the world if you put Nash on that 2000 nets team led by kidd, that they would not go as far or might not even make the playoffs. I swear if he wins another MVP title i will go mad, shaq should have won Nash's first MVP, Kobe should have won Nash's seconed and Kobe, Dirk or even T-Mac should get this one.
jacobdrj
Bench
Kidd is a no brainier. Period. I don't like him, but he has been the best PG in the NBA, or a top 3 candidate since as long as I can remember. He has done amazing things on the floor.
You don't have to win a title to get in the HOF, and a title certainly doesn't guarantee you a spot either. The MVP award obviously doesn't mean anything, since nobody has properly defined it, so it isn't relevant to the discussion.
Other notable no brainiers:
KG
Timmay
Kobe
Shaq
T-Mac
You don't have to win a title to get in the HOF, and a title certainly doesn't guarantee you a spot either. The MVP award obviously doesn't mean anything, since nobody has properly defined it, so it isn't relevant to the discussion.
Other notable no brainiers:
KG
Timmay
Kobe
Shaq
T-Mac
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
It certainly is when everybody who ever wins one makes it to the Hall. Whether its cause or effect is not really relevant. If you are a betting man, and you see the MVP pop up next to somebody's name, put your money on him in the HOF.
Besides, its quite well defenied actually, and the only people who say its not are those who disagree with the definition. But for as long as its been around its been given to a "great player on an elite team", with the provisio that they are reluctant to give it to the same person too many times in a row and will mix it up to avoid that.
Its never given to even all time greats on mediocre teams. Its never given to merely good players who are part of an ensemble elite team. 50 wins is a bare minimum. 55 a better cutoff. And barely All-Satrs need not apply. Haas to be clear and away straws who stir the drink, So-and-so And the So And So are coming to town types.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Now you are just hatin'. What Nash has done these last couple of years is nothing short of miraculous. Or more specifically what he has done for the Suns is nothign short of miraculous. Without him, they just fold up like a cheap all flash no substance tent. With him all of a sudden they spring up as league stomping monsters. I'm trying to recall if I can ever remember a clearer before and after effect with one player.
And yes, there is no way in hell he was a HOFer before the Suns run began. Would have been laughed right out of the building even suggesting it. And yet here we are three years later, and now there's now way that he's not. The 2 time MVP unquestioned leader of one of the flagship franchises of its era (following a less prominent role on a very prominent Dallas team as well). A team half the league tries to emulate. And all the while putting up the numbers of a true megastar to boot. Not a holistic magical unseen roleplayer that somehwo makes them win, but suddenly the premier PG of the mid 00s, First team All NBAer, a guy putting up John Stockton numbers.
vladetomiller
Bench
What about Kidd taking the nets team to the finals twice. Atleast the suns have names like Amare, Barbosa and defensive specialist bell. For the nets it was just Kidd and Jefferson and Kidd was their best defender and took it on him to check the other teams best perimiter player.
What is the difference that Nash brought here that Kidd didnt to the nets team and took the team farther than the suns. Offcourse getting out the east is a lot easier than the west but then again the mvp should be able to get that spectacular team farther than where he has taken the team so far.
In yesterday's game smush parker of all people was abusing nash on the defensive end, posting him up whenever he felt like and scored at will. It was Barbosa who changed the game and not nash
I didn't see anywhere in his post that he was bashing Jason Kidd. Everyone knows Kidd has game and has done some great things himself. He was just saying it is hard not to overlook two MVP's and the way Phoenix has changed before Nash and after Nash. Those will make big differences in the minds of those that vote for spots in the HOF.
No one ever said Nash is a great defender, because he isn't. It is trade off the Suns make for his other talents, which have turned their team around. He is a perfect fit for their offensive system and they aren't the same dominant team without him in the lineup. He isn't the only important player on their team, but clearly the most crucial.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I'm not sure who you are trying to slip that one by, but...please.
Jason Kidd took his teams to the Finals...as 50 game winners! They weren't great teams. Wouldn't have had a prayer out West. And Nash's Suns would have cruised to both of those Eastern titles, and had a better shot in the Finals too (still would have lost IMHO). Kidd is a great PG and a a HOFer, but his teams' appearance in the NBA Finals was a historical anomaly to say the least. Two of the weakest entires in Finals history. There were half a dozen teams more deserving of that honor in those years, including us.
DaMan
Starter
Question now if Nash was put on that same Nets team with no stars what so ever, would they go as far? Because i really do think if put on this current suns team Kidd could really improve that team simply because he could play D and rebound. I do think Nash is a good player and you are right brick i may be hatin' a little, but I don't see him as a great player just a guy who played for a team that fits his style. I come to agreement with jacobdrj, and the hall of fame should included:
T-mac
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
KG
with
Kidd
Payton
Dirk
Iverson
4cwebb
Starter
I don't think Kidd would improve the Suns at all...no one on that team, other than Bell and may be Marion, has a true commitment to defense, and as we've witnessed first hand with the Kings, while effort may help to inspire, it doesn't change the fact that some guys are able to play good defense and others are not.
And, Kidd's addition would actually hurt the spacing of the Suns' pick and roll plays (imho) because he still cannot consistently knock down jumpers. The high pick and roll that the Suns run works so well because if Nash gets any space he will most likely knock down the open shot, so the defenders have to be mindful of that. Defending Kidd on the pick and roll is much easier because his primary defender doesn't have to try to fight through the pick to stay with Kidd, but can slide under it and dare him to shoot his set shot/jumper.
I'm not sure whether Nash would've turned that Nets team into a Finals participant, but I'm sure Kenyon Martin wouldn't have minded rumbling to the rim for a few more dunks with Nash running the pick and roll instead of Kidd.
acisking
Bench
Those may be valid arguments except for the fact that you're overlooking the fact that Nash won 2 MVPs. There has never been an MVP to not make it in the HOF. Considering Nash has 2 (potentially even 3), he is pretty much a lock.
As for T-Mac....I seriously don't see why you see him as a lock for the HOF. He is an incredible player but his lack of both individual awards and playoff/team success will seriously hurt his chances.
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DaMan
Starter
Even thou nash does have a better jumper then Kidd, i think that kidd could consistently knock down a jumper that is 15 to 18 feet out but not a three. His second year with the Nets he did set a career high in points with 18 points per game.
And even thou Defence is a team sport, man on man I don't think kidd would let avg players such as Parker score with such regualarlity.
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vladetomiller
Bench
And what did the suns accomplish. You are speculating about other teams in the west being better than the nets then, you may be right but it doesnt matter cos nets reached the finals twice and thats what matters.
MVP on the other hand couldnt even reach the finals, and similar 50 game winning team, this year Amare is back and hence they are getting more wins. So why would you credit nash for that.
Kenyon martin was a beast in that team and after he left the nets and Kidd he hasnt done anything, maybe Kidd was the reason kenyon was so very effective and was considered a super star
DaMan
Starter
The MVPs are beside the point because I know thoes are the main reasons why he will get into the hall of fame. But for him to be considered before players such as kidd and payton who are both better and deserve it more is what I have a problem with.
T-mac does have the individual awards in my opinion he won MIP, he is a 2 time scoring champ, 2 time first teamer, if i remember correct 3 time second team and is a 7 time all-star with his age he will surpass 10.
He lead a god awful Magic team to the playoffs 3 times and with yao and some decent role players he should get past the first round this year.
His career somewhat reminds me of the KG but with out the MVP trophy.
acisking
Bench
Comparison to KG is a very good one...although honestly, I think that Garnett's road to the HOF would be much murkier if he didn't have an MVP. His team/playoff success is iffy at best. Maybe he'd still get in due to the sheer impressiveness of his numbers and other all-nba type accomplishments. With T-Mac though, he doesn't really have the individual accomplishments of Garnett but has had the same (or even worse) team/playoff failures.
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