Should Brad Miller be on Notice?

DocHolliday said:
If it were to everyone happen though I think it would have to be a 3 team deal. Someone who specifically wants brad for something, sends a guy to another team, that equals out what they will give up to us. Something like that. It won't be tomorrow, would be amazingly surprised if it happened before the trade deadline. It could take a year or two, and Brad's trade value will most likely lower. It doesn't have to neccessarily but it probably will as he ages and gets even slower. I hope he proves me wrong though.
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Let's start from there (in bold): Brad is difficult to move, we lose offense and a good and willing passer, and we keep all our tweener 4's. Meanwhile, SAR is probably best value-for-money veteran right now and KT has an albatros contract. Do you see what I am trying to get at? As long as we're talking about trades...

(BTW, I really, really apreciate what SAR is doing for this team, and to begin with I am sorry that the guy was screwed by Nets and had to take less money, but he is probably our best chance of getting a trade done in not so distant future, and trade could even help him, the way it seems it helped Pedja.)
 
Just to back up Foretaz a little. I watched Brad and Ron a lot when they were in Chicago, and I've mentioned this before, that Brad didn't look nearly as bad on D as he does now. Back then Brad played on the floor with Charles Oakley quite a bit, and it was a totally different Brad. I think the players on the team had a big effect on how Brad approached the game. He wasn't a great shotblocker, but he was a guy that had no problems hammering Shaq time and time again.

If Brad tried to block every shot with the team we used to have, he would be fouled out in 5 minutes. I bet you anything that the way Brad holds up his arms up as if he's being robbed in the post is mainly do to the fact that Adelman doesn't want him on the bench in foul trouble. Brad DOES however need to step it up on the defensive side of the ball for sure. I hope the Brad I saw in Chicago and Indiana comes back around.
 
SacTownKid said:
Just to back up Foretaz a little. I watched Brad and Ron a lot when they were in Chicago, and I've mentioned this before, that Brad didn't look nearly as bad on D as he does now. Back then Brad played on the floor with Charles Oakley quite a bit, and it was a totally different Brad. I think the players on the team had a big effect on how Brad approached the game. He wasn't a great shotblocker, but he was a guy that had no problems hammering Shaq time and time again.

If Brad tried to block every shot with the team we used to have, he would be fouled out in 5 minutes. I bet you anything that the way Brad holds up his arms up as if he's being robbed in the post is mainly do to the fact that Adelman doesn't want him on the bench in foul trouble. Brad DOES however need to step it up on the defensive side of the ball for sure. I hope the Brad I saw in Chicago and Indiana comes back around.
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He probably wasn't as slow then as he is now. I mean he wasn't this slow last year. I really think that leg break effected him quite a bit.
 
DocHolliday said:
He probably wasn't as slow then as he is now. I mean he wasn't this slow last year. I really think that leg break effected him quite a bit.
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No, I remember him being just as unathletic. He just didn't let anyone get freebie after freebie.

Sometimes slamming someone down on the court when they come in for layup drills has effect on their psyche. ;)
 
DocHolliday said:
You can't have that much money sitting on the bench unfortunately
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Sure you can.

Skinner + Williamson + Thomas = $18 mil sitting on the bench for most of the season. Even if you don't count Thomas, that is still $12 mil sitting on the bench.
 
sometimes its more effective to fix the actual problem than it is to just provide a bandaid....

u guys thirst for a shotblocker is because ur so used to all ur guys getting beat off the dribble....

eliminate that and its not nearly as big of a deal....uve been so conditioned to accepting the defensive weaknesses on ur perimeter because uve been so in love with ur perimeter guys....if u put skinner in the lineup, or someone like him, u now have a couple guys that are great at defending their man, a couple guys that are adequate, and bibby....

thats the makings of a very solid defensive team...
 
foretaz said:
sometimes its more effective to fix the actual problem than it is to just provide a bandaid....

u guys thirst for a shotblocker is because ur so used to all ur guys getting beat off the dribble....

eliminate that and its not nearly as big of a deal....uve been so conditioned to accepting the defensive weaknesses on ur perimeter because uve been so in love with ur perimeter guys....if u put skinner in the lineup, or someone like him, u now have a couple guys that are great at defending their man, a couple guys that are adequate, and bibby....

thats the makings of a very solid defensive team...
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No, we have been so thirsty for a shotblocker because as it stands today we are 30th out of 30 teams in the league in blocked shots. That's right, dead bleeping last. Below Toronto, Seattle, New York, New Jersey. The worst in the league.

Our lack of shotblocking is not some relative issue that only matters because of our perimeter people, its a huge gigantic ogre that quite literally no other team has to contend with. We cna never be a strong defensive team without SIGNIFCANT updgrades inside. And it makes it much harder on even good defensive perimeter people because they have to take a step back from their man rather than aggressively challenging him for fear that he will get around them and then have a red carpet right to the rim.
 
SacDoug said:
Sure you can.

Skinner + Williamson + Thomas = $18 mil sitting on the bench for most of the season. Even if you don't count Thomas, that is still $12 mil sitting on the bench.
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That's in multiple people, not one single person.
 
Bricklayer said:
No, we have been so thirsty for a shotblocker because as it stands today we are 30th out of 30 teams in the league in blocked shots. That's right, dead bleeping last. Below Toronto, Seattle, New York, New Jersey. The worst in the league.

Our lack of shotblocking is not some relative issue that only matters because of our perimeter people, its a huge gigantic ogre that quite literally no other team has to contend with. We cna never be a strong defensive team without SIGNIFCANT updgrades inside. And it makes it much harder on even good defensive perimeter people because they have to take a step back from their man rather than aggressively challenging him for fear that he will get around them and then have a red carpet right to the rim.
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A lot of what you said is true. There is a problem. And I think the idea of Skinner in the starting lineup supports this to a certain extent.
 
Some of you guys make it sound like brad is the worst center to ever play, IMO we would be royally screwed if he left or got traded, he is a great center, and would be missed more than some of u know if he left....ok i got my 2 cents in :)
 
kingsfan52miller said:
Some of you guys make it sound like brad is the worst center to ever play, IMO we would be royally screwed if he left or got traded, he is a great center, and would be missed more than some of u know if he left....ok i got my 2 cents in :)
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He has a good jump shot and he's a good passer. Never said he was the worst. He's just REALLY slow now. And that is what makes him not so useful on defense. I believe he's giving it all he's got out there. Never questioned his effort or desire.
 
I have the perfect remark to describe Brad's physical ability. A few weeks ago, I was playing vollyball on the beach at Mazatlan. A wiseguy Mexican kid on the other side of the net chided me with, "You jump like two pounds of tortillas". Ouch! True, but Ouch!! :o

Brad Miller jumps like two pounds of tortillas.
 
Sac.Kings said:
Artest and Bonzi are like those 2 guys from the Mighty Duck movies that kick everyones *** when someone starts messing with the team
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the bash brothers!

i used to love that movie!
 
You know guys, this isn't www.bradmillerisabadbasketballplayer.com. You can have a good defensive team with 1 or 2 guys that are bad on defense on it. When Brad played with a shotblocker he was good on D. He doesn't now and he's bad on it. If you put a shotblocker by him, he'll be atleast okay on D again. This team has enough post players. Not to mention our post players are a mismatch for every team in the league(pretty much). Brad and Mike give them someone to find that can hit the open shot. Trust me, if you trade Brad Miller you'd lose more than you'd gain. He's a top 5-7 Center(only Camby, Big Ben, Shaq, Yao, maybe 1 or 2 other guys are better than him). It makes more sense to trade SAR/KT+ to get a shotblocker by him than to trade him(not to mention SAR is bad on D too).
 
BMiller52 said:
You know guys, this isn't www.bradmillerisabadbasketballplayer.com. You can have a good defensive team with 1 or 2 guys that are bad on defense on it. When Brad played with a shotblocker he was good on D. He doesn't now and he's bad on it. If you put a shotblocker by him, he'll be atleast okay on D again. This team has enough post players. Not to mention our post players are a mismatch for every team in the league(pretty much). Brad and Mike give them someone to find that can hit the open shot. Trust me, if you trade Brad Miller you'd lose more than you'd gain. He's a top 5-7 Center(only Camby, Big Ben, Shaq, Yao, maybe 1 or 2 other guys are better than him). It makes more sense to trade SAR/KT+ to get a shotblocker by him than to trade him(not to mention SAR is bad on D too).
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The point is he's not a bad defender, because he doesn't have the talent or skills to defend. He can't defend because he's extremely slow an unathletic. Jason Ross and Coach T were saying it last night, if you're going to be on this team now you're going to have to run. Brad can't, and he can't get in position to close lanes off to people, or get to them in time if the perimeter defense gets blow. Like it or not. It's true.
 
DocHolliday said:
The point is he's not a bad defender, because he doesn't have the talent or skills to defend. He can't defend because he's extremely slow an unathletic. Jason Ross and Coach T were saying it last night, if you're going to be on this team now you're going to have to run. Brad can't, and he can't get in position to close lanes off to people, or get to them in time if the perimeter defense gets blow. Like it or not. It's true.
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A single one for one trade does not change a team that dramatically. We ran last night because Denver loves to run. Played to our stremgths that night. But aside from it not being how you win big in the NBA, its certainly not going to be there on other nights against grind it out teams.
 
Get a grip kids... Old school type cneters who can block shots defend the paint, post up and score on oponents, and pass are few and far between and worth their weight in gold... in short very, very hard to come by with out breaking the bank or seriously lucking out in the draft. Virtually EVERY center in the NBA has up side and down sides. Good coaching is about minmizing the impact of the down sides as best as possible, or mitigating the cost of that down side by exploiting one or more of the up sides. In his BEST days Brad was a slow footed earth bound banger with a nice jumper and great hands. He never had a low post game even facing the hoop and never put the fear of god into anyone while in the paint. BUT they guy has very, very unique tallents away from the hoop. He is the best passing center in the game now PERIOD, he has one of the best jump shots not jsut for centers but for ANY player in the NBA, he is CLEARLY developing some low post game all which makes him a HUGE problem for thos shot blocking big men most of you describe.

While these are all traits more ofthe seen in PF's than C's it does NOT detract from their value. ONE possible solutino is trade Brad and bing in a traditional C who will get a few more boards, block shots and defend the paint, now you have an good old school C palying with second and third tier PF's who really hant touch brads skill at the high post... not much gained. ANOTHER solution is to look for a forward who defends the paint and plays low post... asuming you are not concerned about scoring or at least an out side game these guys exist and can be had (one is named Brian Skinner) but up untill last week the Kings have needed production from all positiions beceause the lack of consistancy at each has made it tough. With the addition of Artest and the reintegration of Bonzi the Kings need for production at the 4 drops and perhaps the solution to gaurding the paint is not a new Center but a new Power forward.

In any event simply trading Brad away for a mythical replacemnt that will be a more traditional C is not that easy, and a long look at what he does WELL then working those advantages is MUCH more realistc practical and might even produce a more difficult match up for other teams. This is related to another observation that applies to Brad and to Bibby at some level. While there is never a good reason NOT to defend to the best of ones ablity, players who's offense works their oponents wear their man down, and creat foul problms that affect thier oponent's offense as well. In Brads case that means those big guys that do come out to gaurd him often get into foul trouble, run more than they are used to and become either timid or tired on the other end or better yet sit longer with 3, 4 or 5 fouls. Angain this is no substute for D but it IS part of the equation for TEAM D.

Now consider that Ron can take on the the best 1-4 on the court, Bonzi the second best this helps Bibby and even Brad when thier assinment is NOT the toughest assingment...

BOTOM LINE: Putting together and coaching a team is not as much about filling slots as it is finding your strenths and weakneses and making the necessary adjustments to maximize the strenths while mitigating damages from the weakenss. I suspect finding a better complement to Brad is easier and wiser than replacing him and leaving the PF position as is.:cool:
 
HndsmCelt said:
BOTOM LINE: Putting together and coaching a team is not as much about filling slots as it is finding your strenths and weakneses and making the necessary adjustments to maximize the strenths while mitigating damages from the weakenss. I suspect finding a better complement to Brad is easier and wiser than replacing him and leaving the PF position as is.:cool:
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I agree 100%, and have been saying this for a while. But never so eloquently.
 
I think Miller would be a good PF don't you think? Like Duncan and Nowitzki. We must get that perfect center! I SAY CAMBY!
 
foretaz said:
brad is not a poor defender, hes a poor help defender....theres a big difference....u now dont require nearly as much help as u went from peja to ron on the perimeter....since brad will be doing less helping on defense and more straight up defending, he will appear to be a much better defender, as hes now doing the things hes better at, while not having to attempt to do what hes weak at..
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No, he's a poor defender and a worse help defender.

He gets pushed around by the stronger centers and out-quicked by the weaker ones.

I wouldn't get rid of him because of it - unless we had a real viable, young option ... but he's a poor defender.
 
West_Gunslinger16 said:
I think Miller would be a good PF don't you think? Like Duncan and Nowitzki. We must get that perfect center! I SAY CAMBY!
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Everyone keeps saying Miller at PF ...

I just don't understand that. His offense would undoubtably suffer as a PF would actually defend Miller out at 12-18 feet. His defense, already terrible, would probably take a hit as he has the most dominating players in the league take him behind the woodshed.

Miller can't outmuscle 6'10" players that play the weakest talent spot in the league. What makes you think he'll be able to body up a PF, in the most talent-rife position in the league?

He'd be outmatched every night of the year.

It's like putting Mike Bibby on SFs or Bonzi on PFs or Reef on SGs. I think people are just asking for problems.
 
I'm completely torn on this one. On the one hand, as HndsmCelt very eloquently points out, good centers are really hard to come by, especially ones that fit the offense so perfectly, as Brad does. Brad is the perfect center for an offense where your smalls are posting up because he passes so well and has a deadly jump shot.

At the same time, so is Shareef. Shareef is a good passer and can hit the outside shot, with the added dimension that he can go down low and score as well. When Artest is posting up Shareef can spot up outside. Or Shareef can go to the post and feed Artest for outside shots. So from an offensive perspective Brad and Shareef are just about comporable, except perhaps Brad gets the nod because it's more rare for a center to have those skills than a power forward.

Neither of them are particularly good rebounders, maybe Brad is a tad better. Shareef is a better defender, but that's really not saying much. Shareef is good at one-on-one defense and helping on pick and rolls, but he's no lane clogger and no shot-blocker. Brad is not good at anything on defense except taking charges, which he actually does very well (http://www.82games.com/charge.htm).

So, if you want to get rid of one to improve the defense who do you choose to part with? At this point I think it depends on whom you can get in return. Ideally the Kings would get a defensive monster/rebounder/outside shooter like Brand, Garnett or Bosh, but that's probably not happening.

If the Kings can't get one of these players, at the very least the Kings should trade Kenny (who is atrocious on defense) or one of the Philly 3 for Gadzuric or Zaza Pachulia or some B-level role player who can play the 4/5 off the bench. The Kings will get the benefit of having a defensive player and the starters will (hopefully) be an offensive juggernaut once again. But unless the Kings get one of those monster offensive/defensive 4/5s I don't think they'll be contending any time soon.
 
There's an article in the Jan. 23, 2006 issue of Sports Illustrated titled "Class of the Glass." Within the article is a graphic that shows:

RIM RATS

One measure of a player's impact on the boards is what percentage of rebounds his team gets when he's on the court versus off it. According to 82games.com, these are the big men (who have played at least 60% of their team's minutes) with the BEST rebounding differentials this season, through last Friday.

DEFENSIVE
1. Boris Diaw, Suns +6.9%
2. Kevin Garnett, TWolves +6.2%
3. Brad Miller, Kings +5.4%
4. Lamar Odom, Lakers +3.6%
5. Dwight Howard, Magic +3.5%

OFFENSIVE
1. Zach Randolph, Blazers +8.4%
2. Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Cavs +5.7%
3. Brad Miller, Kings +3.4%
4. Udonis Haslem, Heat +1.9%
5. Ben Wallace, Pistons +1.6%
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I found it more than a little interesting that Brad Miller was the ONLY player to show up in both lists.
 
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It could also be a reflection of the fact that when Brad is off the floor the combination is usually KT and SAR, which this season has been about as bad a rebounding duo as you could ask for.

So yes, the Kings are better rebounders when Brad is on the floor than when he's off, but that just means he's better than what's coming off the bench not that he's better than other rebounders in the league.
 
VF21 said:
There's an article in the Jan. 23, 2006 issue of Sports Illustrated titled "Class of the Glass." Within the article is a graphic that shows:



I found it more than a little interesting that Brad Miller was the ONLY player to show up in both lists.
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Surprising stat right there...I would never have guess that.
 
VF21 said:
There's an article in the Jan. 23, 2006 issue of Sports Illustrated titled "Class of the Glass." Within the article is a graphic that shows:



I found it more than a little interesting that Brad Miller was the ONLY player to show up in both lists.
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That is true BECAUSE when he is out of the game they replace him at center with 6'4" Corliss frickin Williamson



(you know, if they put ME in instead, it would make brad look EVEN BETTER in comparison. I'd be the league's first 6'1" center with zero vertical leap, small hands and not much brawn--- but I'd play for the league min :))


(edited to replace "beef" with "brawn"--- didn't want anyone to get confused about what I was referring to ;)
 
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VF21 said:
There's an article in the Jan. 23, 2006 issue of Sports Illustrated titled "Class of the Glass." Within the article is a graphic that shows:



I found it more than a little interesting that Brad Miller was the ONLY player to show up in both lists.
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This stat is astounding on the level of "Call Adam and Jammie! I won't belive it untill the Mythbusters Proove it!" Not that I am questiong you ar the author's honesty... I am just that astounded :eek: !
 
nbrans said:
It could also be a reflection of the fact that when Brad is off the floor the combination is usually KT and SAR, which this season has been about as bad a rebounding duo as you could ask for.

So yes, the Kings are better rebounders when Brad is on the floor than when he's off, but that just means he's better than what's coming off the bench not that he's better than other rebounders in the league.
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Beat me to it ;)
 
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