Shareef should be the first!

[bozzwell]

As we all know, 83.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

In any case, as I recall, the best that we can say about SAR with any degree of certainty is that he was a pretty good player on some terrible teams. Additionally, we got him on the cheap because his 1st choice offer fell through because of concerns about his health. Does that scream No. 1 option? No 1 option on a team that was once elevated to the elite NBA status by a system that mandated that No 1 (and No 2) option initated offense as opposed to create offense for themselves?

I agree that early in the games we would want to dump the ball to SAR as soon as Mike crosses the timeline in order to go inside and soften the middle against certain teams, but I don't see us ever utilizing him as a clear No 1 option where he would carry the offense and hence this team. KG or TD yes, but SAR?

Solution to our current woes lays elsewhere, primarily in the hands of Mike and Pedja. I cannot believe that anyone would think that SAR could somehow make up for the slump that Mike and Pedja are in right now. Statistically or otherwise.

 

[Bricklayer]

Rebounding is overrated

Perhaps, but it does make for good, if pointless debates.

But the taking the comment too seriously related comment would be that:

SAR is such a talented offensive player that team after team has decided to make him a major minute starter DESPITE his rebounding deficiencies. And thus to a certain degree they have all decided that rebounding is overrated, or at least could be done without in order to get such a post scorer. And indeed, while SAR was not the player I would have pursued like a Kings exec with a little chubby because a player can score!!, the fact is that as long as he is here, I too think that he has to start and play major minutes to take advantage of that offense, rebounding or not. It is not too far from the Peja situation, except that SAR is currently playing a position that you normally depend more upon for rebounds, and of course pairing the two of them together leaves a LOT of rebounds for Bonzi o chase down.

 

[Nikos]

Bricklayer, I'd appreciate being spoken to with a little more respect. I don't think you set a very good tone for the forum, and just because someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean you need to resort to insults and pettiness.

In my opinion you put too much stock in per 48 minute stats. Context is extremely important. Otherwise Torraye Braggs, with his 12 rebounds in 7 games, would be the best per 48 minute rebounder in the league. You have to keep in mind that any time you're using per-48 minute stats you're speaking in hypotheticals. Any time you say "if player X were on team Y then Z would happen" you're getting into hypothetical territory.

But whatever, in the interest of moving beyond a neener neener discussion, I'll let you have the last word, I've said enough on this subject.

If you want context, apply the per 48 minute numbers to those who are actually playing rotational minutes. Sometimes per 48 minute numbers can spot good players who simply don't get the minutes -- but try to at least consider that per 48 minute player comparisons are pretty relevant when that player is playing signficant minutes on an NBA team.

 

[ParniValjak]

Again, Brick, it's obvious that you have a bias ... and that's cool. But, 8.5 rebounds is NOT a bad or weak number. It's average or just above.

Its actually pee weak for a PF. Shareef has averaged 8.1 rebounds per game through out his entire NBA career. No matter how much of a spin you like to put on it, its a pee poor return from a PF with a career average of 37 minutes per game.

Any good rebounfer at that position will get you 10 boards or better in 37 minutes. Its admirable that you are SAR fan and see him as a good player. We all think he is a very good player that has weaknesses in his game. His bread and butter is his low post socring. Thats what he excels at and thats fine with us.

You are sounding like one of those Pedja hommies that keep making excuses for Pedja's pee poor rebounding or Bibby hommies that keep making excuses about his stinky defence.

SAR is an average rebounder and no matter how many "excuses" you some up with, his career stats tell the story. 8.1 rebounds per game in 37 minutes per game for his entire NBA career is a poor return for a PF.

 

[SacTownKid]

I am NOT making this stuff up. Nor do I have ANY interest in Reef continuing his wussy ways on the boards. Be a wonderful thing for the Kings if all of a sudden he morphed into a 10reb/gm PF. But he has NOT gotten it done over his career there, and he's been in the league for 10 years now. There is a REASON we could sign him for the midlevel, a reason he has never led his teams anywhere, a reason Portland thought maybe they would get him and put him at SF, and a reason he is universally decried as soft despite having a very pretty post game. And the reason isn't me.

Yeah, because he turned down the Bucks 48 million dollar offer, the Nets still better offer averaging about 8 milllion a year, the Clippers, Heat, etc. You act as if he was not persued when he was clearly the top FA of this offseason.

 

[SacTownKid]

You remain vastly confused on this issue, perhaps intentionally -- let's just say for instance that I had Reggie Evans and Dan Gadzuric as my two PFs in a game (chosen simply because they are two excellent per 48 rebounders who's total minutes last year roughly equal 48 (actually 46). Furthermore let's assume that on the other team you had SAR. I will even let SAR play the full 48, while my twin rebounders will play only 46 min.

End result:

SAR -- 11.1rebs for the GAME
Evans (9.3) + Gadzuric (8.3) -- 17.6rebs for the GAME.

You've just lost the reboudning battle at that position for that game by 6.5rebs, and you would like to argue its irrelevant because neither guy got as many minutes as SAR. Its EXTREMELY relevant. In fact its not just relevant, its determinative. All important NBA stats are per 48, because that's the length of the game. If I employ more efficient rebounders than you do, no matter their individual minutes, I WILL outrebound you for the game.

And end result is the team with Evans and Gadzuric lose! Thats all I care about.

I think Brick has a point, while I don't agree he is a "weak" rebounder, I do agree that Shareef isn't the "best" rebounder. At least in his past he wasn't all that dominant on the boards. His numbers are very respectable though.

 

[thesanityannex]

You remain vastly confused on this issue, perhaps intentionally -- let's just say for instance that I had Reggie Evans and Dan Gadzuric as my two PFs in a game (chosen simply because they are two excellent per 48 rebounders who's total minutes last year roughly equal 48 (actually 46). Furthermore let's assume that on the other team you had SAR. I will even let SAR play the full 48, while my twin rebounders will play only 46 min.

End result:

SAR -- 11.1rebs for the GAME
Evans (9.3) + Gadzuric (8.3) -- 17.6rebs for the GAME.

You've just lost the reboudning battle at that position for that game by 6.5rebs, and you would like to argue its irrelevant because neither guy got as many minutes as SAR. Its EXTREMELY relevant. In fact its not just relevant, its determinative. All important NBA stats are per 48, because that's the length of the game. If I employ more efficient rebounders than you do, no matter their individual minutes, I WILL outrebound you for the game.

May have lost the rebounding battle, but SAR would still outscore those two. I don't feel like doing all the math, Brick, you up to it, I'm just curious to see how close it would be.

On a sidenote, SAR is second in the league in offensive rebounds right now. (i know, only two games in, but hey, its a start)

 

[Bricklayer]

You act as if he was not persued when he was clearly the top FA of this offseason.

??

Michael Redd?
Larry Hughes?
Joe Johnson?
Ray Allen?
etc.

SARs star had really fallen. He was clearly a second tier guy competing against the likes of Bobby Simmons and Antoine Walker. He's vastly overrated by some on this board, but even I think it had gone so far he was actually undervalued this summer. Bucks were the only team offering him more than the midlevel, and half his suitors wanted him to come off the bench.

P.S. Reef's deal with NJ was reported at between $5-$6mil a year, 5yrs $27-$30mil.

 

[deviflux]

SAR is an average rebounder and no matter how many "excuses" you some up with, his career stats tell the story. 8.1 rebounds per game in 37 minutes per game for his entire NBA career is a poor return for a PF.

Have you even paid attention to the discussion?

Reef wasn't always a PF. For half his career he played SF.

The only years he played fulltime PF was Atlanta, and he had a back back that required surgery (which will affect rebounding numbers immensely), he averaged almost 9 RPG.