Shareef (MERGED)

#31
VF21 said:
It doesn't matter what you - or I - or even the Sacramento Bee calls the team.

;)

If Reef is going to step up as the leader, I'm hoping to hear THE TEAM say it.

:D
I couldnt agree more with what you just said right there VF...we had that with Vlade and Chris as the recognized leaders in recent years...now we have a few guys coming up saying they want to lead the team...Bibby being the latest...if its his team, I sure havent heard any comraderie amongst the rest of the team. I just dont see any sort of identity yet in this bunch...much as I expected from this first month of the season with so many new faces. This team has too many great players for the gel to stay away for too much longer. Identity is osmosis from where I see it, especially in this league. 1998 didnt happen overnight from a Kings history prespective, it took about 20 games for that group of guys to get acclimated, and the rest is the Kings recent history.
 
T

thesanityannex

Guest
#32
Circa_1985_Fan said:
I couldnt agree more with what you just said right there VF...we had that with Vlade and Chris as the recognized leaders in recent years...now we have a few guys coming up saying they want to lead the team...Bibby being the latest...if its his team, I sure havent heard any comraderie amongst the rest of the team. I just dont see any sort of identity yet in this bunch...much as I expected from this first month of the season with so many new faces. This team has too many great players for the gel to stay away for too much longer. Identity is osmosis from where I see it, especially in this league. 1998 didnt happen overnight from a Kings history prespective, it took about 20 games for that group of guys to get acclimated, and the rest is the Kings recent history.
You hit on something I think we all need to keep in perspective: These guys hardly know eachother and it will take plenty of time before they find their true chemistry. I can't wait for it to happen, they could be something special.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#33
Circa_1985_Fan said:
This team has too many great players for the gel to stay away for too much longer.
Unfortunately not necessarily so. In fact Bonzi must be wondering what the hell he did in life to be in this too many cooks in the kitchen situation AGAIN. Portland, Memphis, now us -- all have had a similar structure when he's been there. Lots of good players more or less on the same level. Its not a situation that lends itself to the easy emergence of a leader.

Most leaders around the league, personality or not, are usually overwhelmingly good/better at one aspect of the game or another and become a natural leader by virtue of their abilities. Not all -- smart guys with strong personalities can do it too, but players with exceptional abilities often mean that everyone has to respect their game, and follow the guy who is best at...whatever. Does not always happen, and that's where you see many franchises trying to convince their big stars to be more of a leader even if its not in their personality. But in a situation where everyone is more or less equal, and largely good on the same side of the ball to boot, it does not lend itself to a nice natural easily identificable person who SHOULD be the leader.

In our past we had one unique guy (Vlade, who by personality and in the early years, age/worldliness/experience, established himself a a leader), we had an overwhelming talent that was a natural for the position by game alone, and then we had a great defensive player who far outshone his teammates in that aspect. All had something to naturally separate them. Now we really don't. Everybody exists on the same plane talentwise. Nobody has an obvious personality for it. I am trusting to the same trait that means we have no natural leader -- lots of bland, low key personalities -- to hopefully prevent the messes that have occurred in Portland and Memphis in this situation. But its not one that has a real natural resolution. Amongst a bunch of equals without forceful personalities, where does leadership come from?

2 Subnotes:
1) Of course our coach does not have a forceful persoanlity either. He excels at getting out of the way of athletes who DO, and thus letting players be themselves and lead if its natural. Give him a team full of quiet bland types thogh, and he can't provide the missing spark.
2) Our GM has all the personality of cardboard. His favorite player, the persoanlity of a wet noodle. I have long been concerned that his own quiet demeanor makes him less likely to add players to the team who are not similarly low key flatliners. He's quiet and low-key, and so he likes quiet low-key players. But that's a problem in excess. SOMEBODY has to lead. And he's acquired a team without an obvious player to fill that role. (and that's before my growing concern that he was a shooting softie as a player, still sees the game that way, and is unable to see or appreciate ferocious tough competitiors).
 
#34
True^^^ in alot of ways. But I do think that this will end up being Bibby's team, but right now even HE is in the 'Hi, nice to meet you' stage, just like the rest of the team. The one thing I'm wondering is...where Peja fits into this equation?? The quiet Mr Stojakovic always makes for a trivial seasonal journey. Wasnt that long ago that he wanted the Kings to be HIS team...well, now it can be, but what is he going to do with his part of this opportunity?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#35
^^If you recall, Peja said he doesn't think a team needs a leader...

Peja might be a lot of things, but he will never be what I've frequently called the WARRIOR king. The "BRAVEHEART" who will lead the way and exort his men (team) to give their very best. And no, the face paint isn't mandatory - although it would totally crack me up. ;)
 
#36
VF21 said:
^^If you recall, Peja said he doesn't think a team needs a leader...

Peja might be a lot of things, but he will never be what I've frequently called the WARRIOR king. The "BRAVEHEART" who will lead the way and exort his men (team) to give their very best. And no, the face paint isn't mandatory - although it would totally crack me up. ;)
We lost those guys last year, and now this new group of 'Kings', with the exception of Peja and Bibby, have to get along and play in the sandbox together...hopefully they get along. Lord knows.
 
#37
Anyone skilled enough with a computer to produce a "Braveheart" Peja? Not that he would be worthy to lift William Wallace's kilt, much less his sword (coming from a Scotsman I'm a little biased).

You know, maybe Reef steps it up a bit (in the leadership sense) now that he's on a playoff calibur team and becomes a leader. Maybe not the vocal floor commander we need (c'mon Mike), but a leader none the less. It would certainly help and would make for a nice turn of events. I can see Shareef as an inspiring player, especialy if we incorporate him and use him to the best of his abilities. I'd love nothing more than for a character guy like Shareef to help lead this team on a drive to the promised land for a few years.
 
#38
deviflux said:
Give the ball to Reef and let him work.

We'll win the game.

This team has no one inside that can stop Reef consistantly. Let's get the ball down low and let them work. Let THEIR defense collapse and we can kick it for the open 3.
If only basketball was that easy

and to be honest Shareef is more of a face to the basket player he isn't going to dominate anybody in the post. Shawn Marion is also a very good defender so I doubt he will dominate him anyway.
 
#39
Ray Allen34 said:
and to be honest Shareef is more of a face to the basket player he isn't going to dominate anybody in the post.
Okay, you obviously don't know Shareef's game.

His whole schtick when he came in the league was that he is a post player. He only developed the face up as time went on to fit in with what the coaches wanted.

Shawn Marion is also a very good defender so I doubt he will dominate him anyway.
He's always had his way with "good" defenders. The only person that I've seen consistantly blanket Reef is Rasheed Wallace.

Reef, if put in the position, will pour it on Marion.

I'd be more afraid on a thin, quick Boris Diaw than Shawn Marion.
 
#41
Okay, you obviously don't know Shareef's game.

His whole schtick when he came in the league was that he is a post player. He only developed the face up as time went on to fit in with what the coaches wanted.
You got It the other way around. Shareef has always been a very good face to the basket player. Hense why his mid-range shot has always been very consistant. He has improved his post game as his career has gone on. He is a decent enough post player but It certainly isn't a big strength of his.

I got to watch SAR alot when he played for Portland so yes I do know his game very well
 
#42
Ray Allen34 said:
You got It the other way around. Shareef has always been a very good face to the basket player. Hense why his mid-range shot has always been very consistant. He has improved his post game as his career has gone on. He is a decent enough post player but It certainly isn't a big strength of his.

I got to watch SAR alot when he played for Portland so yes I do know his game very well
He also played out of position (at SF, which hasn't been his primary position for awhile) a lot, and mainly came off the bench there.

Not a strength of his? :p
 
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#43
Kings113 said:
He also played out of position (at SF, which hasn't been his primary position for awhile) a lot, and mainly came off the bench there.

Not a strength of his? :p
He played both positions, when Randolph went to the bench often replaced him at PF and when Zach was hurt started at PF...so he saw plenty of time at that position

He is more of a shooting big man than a post player. Although as I said he can post up, just facing the basket suits him more.
 
#44
Ray Allen34 said:
He played both positions, when Randolph went to the bench often replaced him at PF and when Zach was hurt started at PF...so he saw plenty of time at that position

He is more of a shooting big man than a post player. Although as I said he can post up, just facing the basket suits him more.
Yeah, I know he played both.

I still feel the same on the second part.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#45
Ok this is actualy an area that I ahve at least some expertise in (I teach courses in group communicationa and group dynamics). A couple of popular myths abound here. One is the idea that leaders are "natural or born" The truth is that ALL groups will produce a leader. Some leaders will be better than others and some groups will take longer than others but if you take 10 leaders from 10 teams and 10 compleet followers from 10 teams and creat a teams of leaders and followers the leaders will produce one leader and so will the followers. It is very likely that at this momnet Bibby is EXPECTED to be the leader and may not be real effecient at it... if so a new leader will emerge BECEAUSE he has the ablities the other palyers recognize. Might be Reef, might be Wells or any one else. Who would have immagined Vlae as a team leader when he was first drafted inot Magic's Lakers? The second great myth at work here is this idea that roles can be decided. Group mmembers have to negotiate and work into roles and no ammount of "practice" will get the job done, it ALWAYS takes real life high stress (eg game time) situations for thsi process to work out. Of course I don't mean player positions per say but even the idea of which set's work ONLY get born out during play and if the role players are not clear of their roles, or even who the leader is and what he wants/needs, this takes time.

I am not deneying the glaring fact that the team DOES seem to currently lack a number one option, a go to guy, a floor general a put the team on your back player. What I am suggesting is that these roles do not always have to come from the same guy and with a little more time/games those roles will be defined. The guyst that take them may or may not be highly successfull at their job but honestly I don't think any one can accuratly prredict the out comes. As much as I might agree taht Reef has never been the team leader on a good team or the go to guy in crowd of tallent he might pull it off nicely and that will not surprise me either. In fact the only thing I am sure of is that this disorganized leaderless high tallent team will not stay directionless someone will take hold as a leader and if Bibby can't/won't someoen else will.
 
#47
Well, not to start another What-Is-Shareef's-Natural-Position arguements, but Shareef always has been more of a post player than a face-to-basket type of player. He has been that way ever since he started as a rookie in Vancouver. He only started to play more outside in Portland because the Blazers wanted to roll their offense around Zack Randolph, whom they saw as their future(Boy, did that come back to bite them in the a**).

Randolph enjoyed playing post-up, so the team pulled everyone else back and out of Randolph's way, including Shareef and even Rasheed Wallace(Why do you think he was so glad to leave the team?). Naturally, Shareef had to contribute in ways other than post-up plays, which made him focus more on his face-to-basket abilities.

To be honest, Shareef is more of a verstile player than a pure post-up guy. But he shows his best when he plays it down low, which is why I think he should play PF more than SF. Besides, all his years wasted in Atlanta and Portland made him bulk up, but lose some of his agility and quickness(still he is faster than most of other PF's in the league). Since Peja can't play a PF anyway, why not use their talents to the fullest? So the question is not what Shareef's natural position is, but which position the Kings need him for. At the moment, and probably along the future, the answer is PF.
 
#48
kiparking said:
Well, not to start another What-Is-Shareef's-Natural-Position arguements, but Shareef always has been more of a post player than a face-to-basket type of player. He has been that way ever since he started as a rookie in Vancouver. He only started to play more outside in Portland because the Blazers wanted to roll their offense around Zack Randolph, whom they saw as their future(Boy, did that come back to bite them in the a**).

Randolph enjoyed playing post-up, so the team pulled everyone else back and out of Randolph's way, including Shareef and even Rasheed Wallace(Why do you think he was so glad to leave the team?). Naturally, Shareef had to contribute in ways other than post-up plays, which made him focus more on his face-to-basket abilities.

To be honest, Shareef is more of a verstile player than a pure post-up guy. But he shows his best when he plays it down low, which is why I think he should play PF more than SF. Besides, all his years wasted in Atlanta and Portland made him bulk up, but lose some of his agility and quickness(still he is faster than most of other PF's in the league). Since Peja can't play a PF anyway, why not use their talents to the fullest? So the question is not what Shareef's natural position is, but which position the Kings need him for. At the moment, and probably along the future, the answer is PF.
Well said.
 
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#49
Ray Allen34 said:
You got It the other way around.
I do, do I?

Shareef has always been a very good face to the basket player. Hense why his mid-range shot has always been very consistant.
Actually, his mid-range shot didn't really develop until he was being coached by Sid Lowe. Sid tried to take Shareef outside more, so he could clear the lane and let Dickerson do his thing.

He has improved his post game as his career has gone on. He is a decent enough post player but It certainly isn't a big strength of his.
Go read quotes from his sophomore season - all they talked about was how he was the best post player in the league and his spin move in the post was unstoppable. His hook shot was amazing.

You have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

I got to watch SAR alot when he played for Portland so yes I do know his game very well
Woohoo. You saw him in Portland. You're a regular Shareef afficianado.

I guess that definitely beats out watching him since his sophomore year of high school.
 
#50
Ray Allen34 said:
He is more of a shooting big man than a post player. Although as I said he can post up, just facing the basket suits him more.
He played hurt all season. The Blazer's wouldn't listen to him and he was playing hurt ... really hurt.

He also wasn't supposed to be there and the heads of the organizations lied to him ... his teammates were unwelcoming ... so, he played as best he could.

But, to say you think Reef has a stronger outside game than inside shows your lack of knowledge on the subject.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#51
Ray Allen34 said:
He played both positions, when Randolph went to the bench often replaced him at PF and when Zach was hurt started at PF...so he saw plenty of time at that position

He is more of a shooting big man than a post player. Although as I said he can post up, just facing the basket suits him more.
So, care to rephrase this statement. :D