Sasha or Lyles

[funkykingston]

Also, are we sure Barnes is a must-resign? Heading into his age 31 season?

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...rfrom=2023&player_id2=barneha02&p2yrfrom=2023

Lyles statistically has basically been the same player off the bench. Worse at drawing FT's, much better rebounder. I think we can pretty much bank that Lyles has really figured something out in a Kings uniform. And still just 27, this next contract basically will be inking his prime years, while Barnes is far more likely to see a decline over the duration of his next deal. The obvious caveat being the minutes discrepancy and if Lyles can sustain his level of play with a higher minutes role.

Still, Lyles stat profile this year would be a pop for me if he were on another team as an underrated asset that needed more playing time.

Not sure if the cap would play out this way but if it were Barnes+1 of Sasha or Lyles or Sasha+Lyles+Something else? Mostly just thinking out loud here.

As long as it isn't a drastic overpay to keep him, I could go either way on Barnes. Love his vet smarts and professionalism, but he's not a go to scorer or a guy who really excels in any one area. Ideally you'd find a big forward who can be a weakside rim protector/strong defender who can also hit outside shots to fill that last starting role along with Fox, Huerter, Murray and Sabonis.

But moving Lyles to the starting role and signing Vezenkov could work too. Even if it's a lateral move at best (and it's actually probably a slight downgrade) it gives a bit more financial flexibility. In some small part it will probably also depend on who the Kings draft, but more so on how Lyles and Kessler Edwards look to finish the season.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I think HB should he brought back because he gets to the foul line, is a leader and will likely age well. He shoots a high percentage from 3 and the line and is comfortable playing a role while still being capable of dropping 25 when needed.

 

[SacTownKid]

the difference is Lyles wins us games. His advanced stats are starter quality and he has been the most consistent bench player on the team.

I do think we have to choose the 4 most impactful pieces out of Monk, TD, Lyles, Sasha, Davion and potentially Kessler. we can’t sign all of them to long term deals. We have time on a couple of those guys but big decisions will need to be made

Yeah, when he plays. The playoffs will be the make or break as they should be for any role guy that deep in the rotation. The question with role guys, especially one that essentially plays the same spot mostly as your recent number 4 pick and doesn't play a ton of center is take your stars off and what's his impact then? There's value there for sure, but the question is how much value. You don't want to stick yourself into a spot like the Suns and Mavs did. Teams that made the western finals and then just didn't have that next star to lean on to maintain once teams figured them out. Bringing back Lyles should certainly be part of things but the playoffs will show Monte how far this team is away from anything if at all. The NBA has always been this way, and in recent years even moreso, where the gulf between being crap and a playoff team isn't nearly as big as being a playoff team and a contender. Then the other question is the contract year one. If you don't think Lyles is playing for his basketball life you're underestimating that part of it.

 

[SacTownKid]

The two biggest question marks going into the offseason are going to be Barnes and Keegan. I think everyone is pretty much in the agreement that if Barnes walks, we'll hold no ill-will towards him because he's been a loyal player who's at the end of his prime. However, what he brings to our team is extremely important. He's our starting SF who handles the opposing team's best wing each night. He's also only one of two players on the team who can consistently create their own shot. Those two things are really valuable. We're a better team with Barnes but if he decides to leave, it'll be 100% up to Keegan to fill in his shoes. Keegan would need to make a considerable jump in his game. I don't know that he can put it all together in his 2nd year. We've seen him "expanding" his game lately, but that mostly just consists of 1 new move each game that we didn't see before.

Scenario A) But in a perfect world where Keegan suddenly becomes an on-ball 18ppg scorer as our 3rd option in his 2nd year and Barnes leaves in FA, I would move Keegan to Barnes' spot and Sasha to Keegan's current spot as the starting F. I would only be giving Sasha around 20-25mpg and having Lyles come off the bench with around 25mpg. I'd also close out games with Lyles instead of Sasha. I think Lyles brings more to the table at the end of games. Sasha is mostly his 3pt shooting.

Scenario B) However, if we go into next year with Barnes, Lyles, AND Sasha, I'd probably have Sasha be part of our early bench sub and bring him in for Keegan. Maybe at the half-way mark of the 1st quarter, we'll get the lineup of: Mitchell, Huerter, Barnes, Sasha, and Sabonis. Then off the bench it'll be: Mitchell, Monk, Sasha, Metu, and Lyles. But I'd sub Sasha out early for Edwards. I see him getting around 15mpg if this scenario.

Glad I'm not the coach. Now I see why Brown constantly experiments with different lineups and players. Each player brings in something different, but you also have to consider the matchup on the other side too.

You mean by the end of his next contract? Barnes is probably just starting his true prime. He's only in that 30 year old range. I don't see the minutes to spread between all of Barnes, Lyles, Sasha, and Keegan. None are playing the 2, and even if Lyles becomes the full backup center you're platooning Lyles, Sasha, and Keegan. By draft night, someone like Beal might finally be ready to bail so I wonder if some combo of Keegan and picks could land someone like him? That's where the potential of bringing Sasha over and retaining Lyles gives Monte a huge opportunity to replace that shooting/positional need immediately while adding another star, not to mention one that apparently demanded the Wiz bring him Sabonis at one point. He got KP instead, haha.

 

[SacTownKid]

I think HB should he brought back because he gets to the foul line, is a leader and will likely age well. He shoots a high percentage from 3 and the line and is comfortable playing a role while still being capable of dropping 25 when needed.

Yeah if this team loses Barnes it could be a huge setback unless they find another player that can actually get the ball on the floor and produce.

 

[The_Jamal]

Yeah, when he plays. The playoffs will be the make or break as they should be for any role guy that deep in the rotation. The question with role guys, especially one that essentially plays the same spot mostly as your recent number 4 pick and doesn't play a ton of center is take your stars off and what's his impact then? There's value there for sure, but the question is how much value. You don't want to stick yourself into a spot like the Suns and Mavs did. Teams that made the western finals and then just didn't have that next star to lean on to maintain once teams figured them out. Bringing back Lyles should certainly be part of things but the playoffs will show Monte how far this team is away from anything if at all. The NBA has always been this way, and in recent years even moreso, where the gulf between being crap and a playoff team isn't nearly as big as being a playoff team and a contender. Then the other question is the contract year one. If you don't think Lyles is playing for his basketball life you're underestimating that part of it.

Keegan and Lyles don't play the same spot at all. Keegan has almost exclusively been at the 3 and actually shading up more for big-ball 2 than shading down to the 4. Barnes has been the guy Brown has been willing to move around at the 3/4. Lyles pretty much exclusively at the 4 and only down to the 5 out of necessity (ugh). This isn't like a Thomas Robinson/JT scenario where both guys basically can't do anything outside of play the 4. There's versatility.

In terms of contract year, I think where I'd push back is we saw Lyles play extremely well from when he was traded to us last year in those last 24 games. So it's not like he was bad last year and then all of a sudden has just started playing great this season. And even if you go look at the DET numbers, those are pretty close to in-line in what he's done in a Kings Uni.

 

[SacTownKid]

Keegan and Lyles don't play the same spot at all. Keegan has almost exclusively been at the 3 and actually shading up more for big-ball 2 than shading down to the 4. Barnes has been the guy Brown has been willing to move around at the 3/4. Lyles pretty much exclusively at the 4 and only down to the 5 out of necessity (ugh). This isn't like a Thomas Robinson/JT scenario where both guys basically can't do anything outside of play the 4. There's versatility.

In terms of contract year, I think where I'd push back is we saw Lyles play extremely well from when he was traded to us last year in those last 24 games. So it's not like he was bad last year and then all of a sudden has just started playing great this season. And even if you go look at the DET numbers, those are pretty close to in-line in what he's done in a Kings Uni.

Yes they do, and late in recent games it's been Lyles replacing Murray. Even though, yes, I do agree there's versatility. According to the 5 man stats, the highest minute totals that Lyles plays in any of the 5 man units is next to Barnes which is nearly double that of Lyles/Murray. Next is with TD at the 3. It's funny with Keegan. He's mostly playing with Barnes but his next highest minutes total is next to Fox, Monk, and TD. The next with the most actual games played is next to Monk, Huerter, and Mitchell.

Lyles did play well and has for sure, nobody is denying that, but must bring back was not a term used after last year either. Don't judge any player at the peak of their abilities unless you can be assured you'll be getting that every game partly you will allow them to.

 

[cwebb2002]

I think a lot of what happens at the forward spot will be in a few stages.

1. Does barnes resign.
2. How does Kessler develop the rest of the season
3. What can we offer TD and Lyles.

With respect to Sasha, he has zero leverage here. The guy doesn't really offer much in the way of defense, and the beauty of Sabonis is that everyone who can shoot fits with him. The Kings certainly arent short on offense, so Sasha is frosting not cake, no need for the Kings to break the bank for him or even offer a MLE. They own his rights and if he wants to play on NBA, the road is through Sactown.

Id rather retain both TD and Lyles for MLE type money than come away with Sasha, as good an offensive player as he is.

I think frankly the better look will be to move on from Metu and Holmes (who frankly, i think still would be better for this team than metu, the whole season of hisnhas been a strange mystery). I would love to bring in Naz Reid as Sabonis' backup but the kings desperately need to add rebounding and pain defense and Sasha just ain't that guy.

 

[SacTownKid]

I think a lot of what happens at the forward spot will be in a few stages.

1. Does barnes resign.
2. How does Kessler develop the rest of the season
3. What can we offer TD and Lyles.

With respect to Sasha, he has zero leverage here. The guy doesn't really offer much in the way of defense, and the beauty of Sabonis is that everyone who can shoot fits with him. The Kings certainly arent short on offense, so Sasha is frosting not cake, no need for the Kings to break the bank for him or even offer a MLE. They own his rights and if he wants to play on NBA, the road is through Sactown.

Id rather retain both TD and Lyles for MLE type money than come away with Sasha, as good an offensive player as he is.

I think frankly the better look will be to move on from Metu and Holmes (who frankly, i think still would be better for this team than metu, the whole season of hisnhas been a strange mystery). I would love to bring in Naz Reid as Sabonis' backup but the kings desperately need to add rebounding and pain defense and Sasha just ain't that guy.

Moving on from Holmes might not be an option. Not unless he's money filler in a trade for a star. When word comes out through the media that teams are waiting for him to be bought out when he still has a few years remaining on his deal that's their way of saying, "Hey Monte, QUIT CALLING ABOUT HOLMES". haha.

 

[ESP47]

Is Sasha gonna choke out Brook Lopez? Doubt it.

Lyles it is.

 

[midtowner]

I’m not into fighting in sports. But I am into sticking up for yourself and your team. I’m totally OK with what Lyles did.

This team is no pushover. But it’s time for the defense to step up, nightly.

 

[iowamcnabb]

It’s funny how the narratives are completely different depending on where you are. On the ESPN video on YouTube all the comments are admiring Lopez for sticking up for his guy and for pushing everyone into the scorers table.

I’m still very curious about this whole ordeal. At first glance it looked like Giannis is dribbling off to the side to run out the clock. Trey knocks the ball out thinking Giannis is being disrespectful by dribbling right past him. Initially it looked like Lopez was trying to defuse the situation but that can’t be the case given Lyles reaction. And the look on Giannis face after makes me think he knew he was being a bit of a jerk but didn’t expect it to blow up like this. We will probably never know.

I said Monte is assembling a silent assassin team after the Suns game, maybe Trey is one of those ultra competitive players wheee everything is just bubbling under the surface. His teammates looked shocked haha

 

[ESP47]

It’s funny how the narratives are completely different depending on where you are. On the ESPN video on YouTube all the comments are admiring Lopez for sticking up for his guy and for pushing everyone into the scorers table.

I’m still very curious about this whole ordeal. At first glance it looked like Giannis is dribbling off to the side to run out the clock. Trey knocks the ball out thinking Giannis is being disrespectful by dribbling right past him. Initially it looked like Lopez was trying to defuse the situation but that can’t be the case given Lyles reaction. And the look on Giannis face after makes me think he knew he was being a bit of a jerk but didn’t expect it to blow up like this. We will probably never know.

I said Monte is assembling a silent assassin team after the Suns game, maybe Trey is one of those ultra competitive players wheee everything is just bubbling under the surface. His teammates looked shocked haha

I think it was Lyles being a bit of a sore loser more than anything but who knows what went on during the course of the game to cause him to react like that. I'm guessing something happened other than just the Bucks winning and Giannis doing whatever Lyles to offense to on that last play.

All the guys involved seem like likeable guys so it was a strange situation for sure. Not gonna file it under the Christie vs. Fox matchup because Lopez actually seems like a good dude.

 

[iowamcnabb]

This is a really good shot of the altercation

https://twitter.com/statuses/1635497520498642944

 

[iowamcnabb]

I think it was Lyles being a bit of a sore loser more than anything but who knows what went on during the course of the game to cause him to react like that. I'm guessing something happened other than just the Bucks winning and Giannis doing whatever Lyles to offense to on that last play.

All the guys involved seem like likeable guys so it was a strange situation for sure. Not gonna file it under the Christie vs. Fox matchup because Lopez actually seems like a good dude.

It comes down to whether you believe Giannis intentionally cut off Lyles or not. In theory all he had to do was cross the line and hold the ball. It kinda looks like he hunted Trey out to bump into him but it’s also possible it was entirely accidental. In the moment, Trey was obviously convinced it was intentional. After that happened it looked like it would be over and done as Lyles didn’t seem all that hot but whatever Lopez said really set Trey off. As far I know Trey has zero history of altercations and seems like a chill dude so it’s definitely out of character

 

[mrlaze]

Straight to the choke out is pretty extreme.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Straight to the choke out is pretty extreme.

probably but it’s a heat of the moment thing and no one was hurt. He snapped and then had cooled himself off in less than a minute. It happens

 

[PurpleHaze]

probably but it’s a heat of the moment thing and no one was hurt. He snapped and then had cooled himself off in less than a minute. It happens

I agree. The way Trey walked straight to the locker room in silence seemed like he was embarrassed by it all. Hopefully no suspension and likely fine not a major one levied by the NBA.

 

[ESP47]

It comes down to whether you believe Giannis intentionally cut off Lyles or not. In theory all he had to do was cross the line and hold the ball. It kinda looks like he hunted Trey out to bump into him but it’s also possible it was entirely accidental. In the moment, Trey was obviously convinced it was intentional. After that happened it looked like it would be over and done as Lyles didn’t seem all that hot but whatever Lopez said really set Trey off. As far I know Trey has zero history of altercations and seems like a chill dude so it’s definitely out of character

Yeah whether it was intentional or not, still didn't warrant Lyles' reaction. Oh well, good to see some fire under our guys. Now if only Sabonis hadn't stepped in.

 

[macadocious]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I think Lyles was in the wrong. Still not upset it happened. That chippiness is needed.

 

[206Fan]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I think Lyles was in the wrong. Still not upset it happened. That chippiness is needed.

Yeah it's kinda weird that Kings fans and the Kings media is trying to paint Lyles as some sort of hero.

Giannis was dribbling out the clock and Trey tried to go for a swipe for no reason. When he didn't get it, he became a sore loser and pushed Giannis for no reason. I know damn well if the roles were reversed and someone did that to Fox or Sabonis, the entire fandom would be calling for their heads and saying that the NBA is rigged if they don't suspend the opposing player for the rest of the year.

Brook was just being a good teammate and defending his guy. Then Lyles is the one who starts choking Brook... Again, if roles were reversed, fans would be asking for a lengthy suspension.

Lyles was a punk for that. It was a physical game. However, I think Lyles acted completely out of character and it's the only time we've ever seen him have an outburst like that. It doesn't make me think he's dirty or anything, I think he lost his cool and responded inappropriately by pushing their star player, then choking another guy. I think he should get suspended for at least the next game, but I'm willing to move on from this after that.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I've never seen a player dribble out the clock right into another player. Normally they park in a corner at halfcourt. Giannis was not innocent.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I've never seen a player dribble out the clock right into another player. Normally they park in a corner at halfcourt. Giannis was not innocent.

the reality is we just don’t know his intentions. He might have just been heading for the sidelines but yeh if he just crossed the line and held the ball none of this happens.

Lopez was being a good teammate but I dont think all he said to Trey was “hey don’t do that man”. Maybe he threatened Lyles? Why would a guy who barely reacts to anything all of sudden freak out. That doesn’t add up.

 

[SacTownKid]

I've never seen a player dribble out the clock right into another player. Normally they park in a corner at halfcourt. Giannis was not innocent.

Yeah, however, Lyles by consensus certainly looks to be the dolt of the situation from the outsiders perspective.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Yeah, however, Lyles by consensus certainly looks to be the dolt of the situation from the outsiders perspective.

That is because Giannis generally has a good reputation around the league. As does Lyles I think.

There was one person who was a jerk all night, and he escalated. Who cares that Lyles went for the steal after Giannis cuts his path? Nobody unless Lopez escalates.

I think because he grabbed his throat the appropriate suspension is two for Lyles and one for Lopez. As long as Lopez can play the Suns tonight.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Shouldn’t we have heard on the suspension by now?

 

[ockingsfan]

Shouldn’t we have heard on the suspension by now?

I wouldn't get too comfortable if I were Lyles right now. The NBA is known to sometimes wait on deciding on a suspension until the day that particular player has a game. They just want to make an announcement on a suspension before the player plays another game.

Since the Kings don't have a game until tomorrow, Lyles is still on the hot seat until tomorrow afternoon. If we don't hear anything by tomorrow afternoon, he should be good to go.

 

[midtowner]

One game suspension

 

[TaxMan]

the reality is we just don’t know his intentions. He might have just been heading for the sidelines but yeh if he just crossed the line and held the ball none of this happens.

Lopez was being a good teammate but I dont think all he said to Trey was “hey don’t do that man”. Maybe he threatened Lyles? Why would a guy who barely reacts to anything all of sudden freak out. That doesn’t add up.

I suspect something may have been running throughout the game with Lopez. A lot of shoving back and forth on rebounds that weren't called. Lopez ends up with blood running down his face. Likely was a culmination of a lot of things that eventually set things off, including Giannis clearly trying to play some mind games when dribbling out the clock. I don't condone what Lyles did, and the suspension is justified.... however, at the same time this team needs to start pushing back at bullies. I think that's what Brown's post-game comment was all about. You come at us, we're pushing right back and not going to take any crap. He wants them to play with more of an edge.

 

[See_Hanks]

I say Sasha, but I like Lyles too. I would like to keep Lyles as a main contributor. He plays really well with this team. He fits in wonderfully, but Sasha is a better player so I say bring Sasha over.. I will probably regret it in terms of chemistry but I think he's a better overall player and has the chance to make us better, more so than Lyles.