Sacramento-era Kings Draft picks: is Fox the best ever? (split from the [Game] thread)

[Bosnian Diehard]

I love Fox and loved Boogie while he was here. I still feel like Peja is being underrated in this thread. I don’t remember much from watching when he was here because I was too young but I mean he was a 3x All-Star and 1x All-NBA with a top 5 MVP finish. Was the second best player on a team that should have won the title. I’d have to go:

1. Peja
2. Cousins
3. Fox

Fox passes Boogie when we make the Playoffs this year and he can pass Peja if we keep sustained Playoff success in the years to come.

 

[hrdboild]

My read on Cauley-Stein was similar to how I felt about Marvin Bagley pre-draft -- both guys were so enormously gifted physically that they never had to learn how to play team basketball until they got into the NBA. I at least understood the Bagley hype though, I never understood why anyone was hyped on Cauley-Stein. I love defensive role-players and I still couldn't get behind that pick.

I didn't start watching the Kings until the early 90s so I don't remember any of the picks before Duane Causwell. The guys who stand out the most are Peja, JWill, Gerald Wallace, KMart, Tyreke, Isaiah Thomas, DeMarcus Cousins, and DeAaron Fox. It's hard to compare stats since everything is super inflated now -- can you imagine how many points Peja would have scored if he was encouraged to let it fly like players are today? Unfortunately DeMarcus and IT had their careers cut short by injuries -- both guys had MVP level talent at their peak but were out of the league by age 32. JWill and Gerald Wallace had solid careers in the league but relatively short tenures in Sacramento. Tyreke's career floundered when he was moved off the ball. KMart was a really good #2 but never a lead guy. So that leaves two options...

Peja with 3 straight All Star appearances, 7 straight trips to the playoffs, and an All NBA selection gets the nod over Fox so far. The incredible run that Fox is having right now though (he's averaging 32ppg in the month of February with the team going 7-2) certainly makes it seem like he's destined for that top spot, unless Keegan beats him to it.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Criteria is ambiguous, best player Kings have drafted? Or best outcome for the Kings? Best use of pick relative to draft position?

Fox is the only successful franchise centerpiece the Kings have acquired (for themselves) via draft.

 

[Tetsujin]

Speaking of WCS

https://twitter.com/x/status/1630227698084618244

 

[sactowndog]

The tendency is to overweight offense. Peja was a great player but if Fox continues to play the level of defense he has recently it would be Fox hands down.

 

[DesertFox]

Peja, Fox, then Cousins. Although it wasn't entirely his fault, the joy of Cousins' personal achievements has never approached what Fox is doing. For all his critics, at one (very short) time Peja vs Dirk was debatable, and he was a part of a great run. If this team's success continues like it should next year, Fox will pass Peja in my eyes.

 

[gunks]

I voted yes, because I'm optimistic about Fox sustaining this level of impact for the franchise for years to come, which would definitely put him above Peja and Boogie.

I'm definitely suffering from some recency bias though. Fox has been a straight up superstar this month.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Results matter. Sure DMC got handed a raw deal in terms of coaching and talent around him and then an injury when he finally got what he needed but at the end of the day he takes himself out of the running by simply not ever doing anything better once he was traded. So I place him at 3. I loved Pedja, he was an underrated defender the best shot on the court at his time and moved without the ball as well as anybody I've ever seen. Most importantly he was a huge part of what got the Kings within striking of winning the Western conference in a year that the West was almost guaranteed to beat the east so given the team success with Pedja I have to rank him at first. The thing with Fox of course is that the jury is literally still out. He is having an incredible season on what might be the best team the Kings have ever put on the court. I have to placement number two but with huge hopes to upgrade over time.

 

[funkykingston]

Top Ten Sacramento-era draft picks, according to Mr. Slim Citrus:

1. Peja Stojakovic (If you joined this message board after 2006, you don't even understand how much it pains me to have to concede this)
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. De'Aaron Fox (If When the Kings make the playoffs, I will be forced to rank Fox ahead of Cousins. Until then, he stays where he is)
4. Hedo Turkoglu
5. Isaiah Thomas
6. Gerald Wallace
7. Kevin Martin
8. Tyreke Evans (And if you joined after 2014, you don't understand how much this pains me)
9. Tyrese Haliburton (Will probably finish much higher, but I can't call it right now)
10. Lionel Simmons

Outside Looking In: Keegan Murray (See Tyrese Haliburton), Jason Williams, Hassan Whiteside, Jason Thompson (because the bar is in hell)

I joined in 2005 and I still don't know why it pains you so much to concede that point. In terms of stats, Boogie and Fox are probably 1&2. But in terms of impact, it's hard not to have Peja #1. His first two and last three seasons depress his career numbers a bit but at his peak he was an ideal #2 scorer and a fringe MVP candidate in 2004. He'd be a stretch 4 in today's game and probably even better suited for where the game is now.

But I pretty much agree with your list. If we're taking into account where they were picked, IT is probably above Brother Hedo just because of the level of productivity for the last pick of the 2nd round. Tyrese likely ends up in the top 3 or 4 if he has a reasonably long career. I'd also jump De'Aaron to #2 if/when the Kings make the playoffs.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I joined in 2005 and I still don't know why it pains you so much to concede that point.

The super-short version is, I don't like Peja Stojakovic, and I never have. The slightly longer version, without having to exhume the corpse and indulge in a conversation I've made up my mind not to re-engage with is, when this message board split "down the middle" into team-Webber versus team-Stojakovic camps, I was team-Webber. My personal nickname for Stojakovic was inspired by a character on The Sopranos.

And that's as close to re-hashing the debate as I feel like participating in. If that's not enough information for you... sorry.

 

[captain bill]

"Best pick" is clearly Peja. Midfirst international pick at a time when international players weren't getting much attention. Key part of our best teams and one-time MVP candidate

Keegan could eventually reach that level given the pure hysteria when we picked him. Ballsy move that no one in the NBA world believed in. Obviously too early but easily can be up there

Cuz and Fox were top of the board picks so unless the question is best player drafted by Sac it's hardest to put them there

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I really like Peja the thing is he always felt at best to be the third best player on the team. Even when counting all-star nods, I rank Bibby higher, I just think the bigger market got their players in. When going over my top 5 Kings all time on twitter the other day I went Rock, Webber, Fox, Boogie, Bibby.

Boogie and Fox are the focal points of their teams. I know Domas has had a huge role in Fox's ascendancy but at the end of the day (or should we say game, as in 4th quarter and OT) Fox takes over. So I think that is why I have those 4 first. And Bibby is just kind of a personal preference being an Arizona guy and having lead them to their one title, and then I also view him as the final piece of the puzzle that took the Kings to a 1 seed and what should have been a title.

So when we go back to draft picks, I only really considered Fox and Boogie and then Peja is a very clear 3 to me.

 

[206Fan]

Peja, Cousins, Fox, Halliburton, and IT for me.

I don’t even think it’s arguable that Fox > Cousins at the moment. In his 7 years, Cousins was a 3x All-Star. In Fox’s 6 years, he’s only been a 1x All-Star.

Cousins improved every single year with the Kings. His development was pretty much an upward trending slope. I also don’t really remember him going on many slumps. He was consistently good game to game, but there were a couple games each month where he looked like the best player in the entire league.

Fox has had a very up and down career in terms of stardom. His rookie year was solid. His 2nd year was very good… but he regressed his 3rd year. His 4th year was very good… but he regressed his 5th year. Now we’re onto his 6th year, and he’s back to being very good (amazingly great).

In my eyes, Fox needs more All-Star years and he also needs to show that he can consistently play at this high elite level past this year.

Im surprised by the amount of Fox answers… recency bias? Or did everyone literally forget how good Boogie was? Peja and Cousins are really close, but Peja just edges him out.

 

[206Fan]

The super-short version is, I don't like Peja Stojakovic, and I never have. The slightly longer version, without having to exhume the corpse and indulge in a conversation I've made up my mind not to re-engage with is, when this message board split "down the middle" into team-Webber versus team-Stojakovic camps, I was team-Webber. My personal nickname for Stojakovic was inspired by a character on The Sopranos.

And that's as close to re-hashing the debate as I feel like participating in. If that's not enough information for you... sorry.

I think you’ve got to tell us the long-story one day because Peja is probably one of the most beloved Kings of all time. Maybe 2nd to Webber?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

"Best pick" is clearly Peja. Midfirst international pick at a time when international players weren't getting much attention. Key part of our best teams and one-time MVP candidate

Keegan could eventually reach that level given the pure hysteria when we picked him. Ballsy move that no one in the NBA world believed in. Obviously too early but easily can be up there

Cuz and Fox were top of the board picks so unless the question is best player drafted by Sac it's hardest to put them there

I was thinking about things from this frame (best "pick" as opposed to best player) as well.

When Peja was picked, if I have it correct, there had been exactly two international players selected in the first round of the NBA draft who had not also played basketball in the NCAA: Arvydas Sabonis (who waited like 10 years to come to the U.S.) and Vlade Divac. Taking true international players in the first round was basically not a thing yet. Obviously, Peja worked out pretty well.

Other players who were left-field picks for us that worked out:
Hedo (possibly the best player in his entire draft, in the late teens)
Isaiah Thomas (#60!)
Kevin Martin (small school, big game)
Gerald Wallace (maybe not completely left-field, didn't really work out for us, but still)
Brian Grant (if I understand correctly, was seen as having second-round value, Petrie took him at #8 and he turned out to be the second best player on the board behind Eddie Jones)

 

[captain bill]

Peja, Cousins, Fox, Halliburton, and IT for me.

I don’t even think it’s arguable that Fox > Cousins at the moment. In his 7 years, Cousins was a 3x All-Star. In Fox’s 6 years, he’s only been a 1x All-Star.

Cousins improved every single year with the Kings. His development was pretty much an upward trending slope. I also don’t really remember him going on many slumps. He was consistently good game to game, but there were a couple games each month where he looked like the best player in the entire league.

Fox has had a very up and down career in terms of stardom. His rookie year was solid. His 2nd year was very good… but he regressed his 3rd year. His 4th year was very good… but he regressed his 5th year. Now we’re onto his 6th year, and he’s back to being very good (amazingly great).

In my eyes, Fox needs more All-Star years and he also needs to show that he can consistently play at this high elite level past this year.

Im surprised by the amount of Fox answers… recency bias? Or did everyone literally forget how good Boogie was? Peja and Cousins are really close, but Peja just edges him out.

Absent last year's team-wide trainwreck, his scoring and efficiency has improved every year, his defense took a step up this year, and hes improved massively as a closer. And we're just seeing the start of second-half Fox

Talent wise it's really not a question but with the benefit of hindsight I think we can recognize Cuz as a horrible teammate to a lot of players and an unnecessary source of drama. That's a negative. And Fox leading a better team than Cuz ever did is also in his favor

 

[Chupacabra]

He is way up there and may end up being the best, but right now I'd have to say Cousins holds that title. He was an unstoppable force on one of the worst ran, if not the worst ran, teams in all of sports. I don't fault him for that.

 

[funkykingston]

The super-short version is, I don't like Peja Stojakovic, and I never have. The slightly longer version, without having to exhume the corpse and indulge in a conversation I've made up my mind not to re-engage with is, when this message board split "down the middle" into team-Webber versus team-Stojakovic camps, I was team-Webber. My personal nickname for Stojakovic was inspired by a character on The Sopranos.

And that's as close to re-hashing the debate as I feel like participating in. If that's not enough information for you... sorry.

Ah. I wasn't ever into the Webb vs Peja thing. To me it just meant the end of the best Sacramento Kings team, one way or another.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

when this message board split "down the middle" into team-Webber versus team-Stojakovic camps, I was team-Webber.

I wasn't here for that (I was a member of a different forum back then), but had I been -- I'd have been team Webber too. That is, if I had been lured into even pitting them against each other.

I liked everyone on that team, so it would have been hard to take sides. But, I can easily recognize now and even back then which was the superior and more impactful player.

C-Webb certainly had some issues being a closer, but make no mistake -- he was the engine of that team. Vlade was the leader and rallied everyone together. But Webb was the best and most dominate player on the team.

When Mike Bibby was acquired, that fixed the clutch issue at the end of games. Which is why the KINGS advanced as far as they did in 2002 (and really should have won the championship).

Once #4 went down in Dallas, the championship window closed.

IMO #4 is the only jersey from that team that should have ended up in the rafters. For the same reasons #2 is up there.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I think you’ve got to tell us the long-story one day because Peja is probably one of the most beloved Kings of all time. Maybe 2nd to Webber?

Maybe. But, as my grandma used to say, today ain't gonna be that day. Tomorrow ain't looking good, either.

 

[Geoff]

Top Ten Sacramento-era draft picks, according to Mr. Slim Citrus:

1. Peja Stojakovic (If you joined this message board after 2006, you don't even understand how much it pains me to have to concede this)
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. De'Aaron Fox (If When the Kings make the playoffs, I will be forced to rank Fox ahead of Cousins. Until then, he stays where he is)
4. Hedo Turkoglu
5. Isaiah Thomas
6. Gerald Wallace
7. Kevin Martin
8. Tyreke Evans (And if you joined after 2014, you don't understand how much this pains me)
9. Tyrese Haliburton (Will probably finish much higher, but I can't call it right now)
10. Lionel Simmons

Outside Looking In: Keegan Murray (See Tyrese Haliburton), Jason Williams, Hassan Whiteside, Jason Thompson (because the bar is in hell)

While I put Fox on top, I have no strong disagreement with this ranking and comment about Boogie. I AM curious to hear why you put Peja at #1 though.

 

[hrdboild]

Peja, Cousins, Fox, Halliburton, and IT for me.

I don’t even think it’s arguable that Fox > Cousins at the moment. In his 7 years, Cousins was a 3x All-Star. In Fox’s 6 years, he’s only been a 1x All-Star.

Cousins improved every single year with the Kings. His development was pretty much an upward trending slope. I also don’t really remember him going on many slumps. He was consistently good game to game, but there were a couple games each month where he looked like the best player in the entire league.

Fox has had a very up and down career in terms of stardom. His rookie year was solid. His 2nd year was very good… but he regressed his 3rd year. His 4th year was very good… but he regressed his 5th year. Now we’re onto his 6th year, and he’s back to being very good (amazingly great).

In my eyes, Fox needs more All-Star years and he also needs to show that he can consistently play at this high elite level past this year.

Im surprised by the amount of Fox answers… recency bias? Or did everyone literally forget how good Boogie was? Peja and Cousins are really close, but Peja just edges him out.

Just replying to the bit about All-Star nods, it's much harder to crack the Western Conference All Star roster right now as a guard than it is as a center. Fox clearly deserved to be there 2 years ago and arguably should have made it last year too despite the slow start. It's hard to argue against any of the guards that did make it in his place though. Meanwhile I bet most of us could only name the starting centers for half the teams in the league this season and I don't think the situation was much better during Cousins' peak.

That's not to take anything away from Cousins who could certainly be ranked above Fox by other criteria as well -- I just don't really think the All-Star selections should be a defining criteria when the depth of the league is weighted so heavily toward guards.

 

[Tetsujin]

I think you’ve got to tell us the long-story one day because Peja is probably one of the most beloved Kings of all time. Maybe 2nd to Webber?

Given that Peja is just as culpable to the whole Vlade-father GM era, I'm not so sure he's that high on the beloved Kings list anymore.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

C-Webb certainly had some issues being a closer, but make no mistake -- he was the engine of that team. Vlade was the leader and rallied everyone together. But Webb was the best and most dominate player on the team.

When Mike Bibby was acquired, that fixed the clutch issue at the end of games. Which is why the KINGS advanced as far as they did in 2002 (and really should have won the championship).

As I had said a few posts earlier in my world at best Peja was probably the 3rd central player on those teams and in 2002 I have it just as you did here. That takes nothing away from him. I just see him more as an extremely high level complementary piece, the same way I see Keegan now, moreso than how I see Fox or Boogie as undisputed team engines.

 

[serbiangoat]

I think it's kind of hard to compare him to Peja since one played on a very good elite team/teams and Fox has never (including the current team which is overachieving insanely due to him and Sabonis). I think he proved he was better than Cousins just in his Joerger first season the fact he helped get a team to close to 41 wins (WCS/Bjellly/Shump/Bogi or Buddy as the main cogs prior to Barnes coming) something Cousins could never do and this years results speak for themselves. I have been a Fox hater forever but this season and the first Joerger season is amazing and comparable to IT/Peja did in their top 5-10 MVP (IT in Boston) seasons they had while having some of the best supporting casts which the Kings don't.

 

[nikefutbolero]

Fox
Peja
Cousins

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

Given that Peja is just as culpable to the whole Vlade-father GM era, I'm not so sure he's that high on the beloved Kings list anymore.

I view that whole team - Peja, Vlade, Webber, etc., as essentially Championship Winners - and that the redemption arc of the franchise, the sacred task if you will - is to make that right by bringing home a League Recognized championship. We all know it was criminal what happened to them. They were champions. They will always be beloved as such in my mind.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

We all know it was criminal what happened to them. They were champions. They will always be beloved as such in my mind.

Yes sir.

It’s sad that team won’t ever be remembered by the masses as an elite team.

Even if one doesn’t subscribe to the notion that they were cheated out of a title — or the very least a trip to the Finals — they deserve ultimate respect for being the only team that took that LAL team with two of the most recognized stars in their primes down to the absolute wire.

Portland took them to 7 and held a big lead entering Q4 but that was the beginning of the LAL’s run and not quite the seasoned champ we faced that nobody else could hang with — until the relationship between Shaq and Kobe became problematic.

 

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

Yes sir.

It’s sad that team won’t ever be remembered by the masses as an elite team.

Even if one doesn’t subscribe to the notion that they were cheated out of a title — or the very least a trip to the Finals — they deserve ultimate respect for being the only team that took that LAL team with two of the most recognized stars in their primes down to the absolute wire.

Portland took them to 7 and held a big lead entering Q4 but that was the beginning of the LAL’s run and not quite the seasoned champ we faced that nobody else could hang with — until the relationship between Shaq and Kobe became problematic.

The 2003-2004 Detroit Pistons would like to say a few words to you regarding the part of your statement that is in bold text.

 

[kingsfan101]

yeah the more I thought on it I was thinking it was some kind of anemia. still imagine that it's mostly mental with him.

I didn't know he had this issue, nor know anything about it. So, can't say how much it impacted him physically.

That said, if you are aware of some issue, it can impact you mentally. Once it does, it's extremely difficult to get over it. I think, in light of this, we must cut him some slack.