ParniValjak
All-Star
Have you seen Rudy Gay at the same age that Parker is at the moment? Obviously not!
Rebuild Strategy (or WE WANT LINS!)
- Thread starter dude12
- Start date
I have he never had the end to end speed or explosiveness Parker has (had)
allrightythen
Starter
I cited usage rates not minutes.
macadocious
Starter
Totally didn’t realize this game was IN Toronto. Lineup makes a ton more sense.
sactowndog
All-Star
I would like to see the minutes ramp up for Buddy. Granted he can put too much pressure on himself but even with his horrible start he is shooting at a high percentage. 46% from 3. He needs to improve his handle on get to the rim but shooting alone he deserves more time.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Napier said in his usual cryptic fashion that as the season progresses there will be fewer veterans played and more youngins played. Reynolds agreed. They used the old "is what it is" as a euphemism for "tank." They aren't making guesses on this stuff. They undoubtedly talk to Vlade and Peja and Joerger. I think the concern about the youngins not getting enough minutes is overblown and will dissipate by mid-February. There's always going to be a tension with Joerger of playing the youngins minutes to get experience on the one hand, but not playing them if they don't deserve it on the other. That said, if Joerger is playing four vets and WCS lineups in February I'll be glad to eat crow.
If you did want to market your vets to the highest bidders, would you sit them and play the rookies, or play them before the trade deadline? That's another consideration that may be at play.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And time is wasted up to that point. Honestly, it would be better for Joerger to just stash the young guys and bloat up those minutes for Temple, Hill, and Zbo as high as they can go because then there would be some consistency. So I'm OK with that. It's the half and half stuff that will break this team. I mean it already looks like they are just going through the motions at times . The odd thing is the pressure is off for them when they do that and they seem to score more easily until the other team wakes up.
And this isn't about who "deserves" what, that's a coaches self preserving byline to find a way out so they don't have to completely tarnish their own record. They are in a rebuild situation, the TEAM deserves to see what the draft picks have yielded because that's the ONLY future they have. Temporary stop gaps, regardless of how good they may be, are just that, stop gaps. It's very hard to see how someone like Hield climbed back down in minutes just after going near star mode for the previous couple of weeks, while still not even in a true starters minutes role most nights while doing it.
Grizz fans pointed out very specific things to look out for with Joerger and while I do think he's a good coach and seemingly a good person, and potentially in an unfair circumstance considering the amount of young players Vlade gave him to work with, they hit that nail dead center for the most part.
whozit
Starter
I think one thing that may be overlooked is the competing interests of the investors of the team. If you don't think Vlade and Coach have a tough balancing act, consider the investors. These were powerful business partners and when the deal to keep the team in town went down there were several parcels of land that went with it.
There is money to be made on the development around the arena more so than what happens inside the arena. Provided that what happens inside the arena doesn't kill what happens outside the arena. (And yes I know there are more "shows" than games)
How much this detail comes into play I don't know but I would be surprised if it isn't a factor.
There is money to be made on the development around the arena more so than what happens inside the arena. Provided that what happens inside the arena doesn't kill what happens outside the arena. (And yes I know there are more "shows" than games)
How much this detail comes into play I don't know but I would be surprised if it isn't a factor.
sactowndog
All-Star
The tanking this year is going to be early and hard.... a clear top 5-6 players and then a big drop off.... the draft model changes significantly next year
There is no nets team this year... 12 teams are within striking distance of the top picks:
7: Atlanta
8: Dallas
9: Sac, Chicago, Memphis
10: Lakers (assuming Warriors win)
11: Phoenix, LAC, Orlando, Charlotte, Brooklyn
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Yes, and that will increase as the season progresses.
I'm confused about what you want. So now you want Joerger to play all the vets for the sake of consistency?
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I've said it from day 1, pick a side. Although now months later I do think the time to go all in with the vets came and went about the time all the negative vibes started bubbling up the way they always do in a platoon scenario. Even so, picking either side is better than what they are doing now. Trying to play the middle of the road and splitting minutes doesn't do anyone any good. For instance if the idea is to build value with the vets you won't do it the way they were playing Hill previously. Now he's starting to be more aggressive and take a larger share of the offense and surprise he can still play. The downside is it's bad for development, the upside is there is higher value potential with the idea that he could eventually turn into an asset that helps you in your rebuild in some tangible way. Trying to appease both sides does nothing but reduce your top shelf value across the board.
As I mentioned above I would personally rather see them just tank the value of the vets and play the young guys because I think the fact that they way overpaid the veterans this summer is going to make a trade for anything let alone anything of value quite difficult. Financially there are like 1 or 2 teams out there that could even make a deal work without the Kings just making it worse salary wise on themselves. The fact that the Kings are still losing regardless of who or what they play makes going full on into the youth movement the most obvious decision at the moment.
Larry David
Starter
The narrative in June was: Fox, top 5 2018 pick and probably Skal are the core.
Fox is a talented mess. Skal is back to total project. And meaningless wins on the backs of vets may materially impact the pick.
Fox is a talented mess. Skal is back to total project. And meaningless wins on the backs of vets may materially impact the pick.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Kangz.
But people are getting super excited about Z-bo leading us to the promised land of 27 wins and the 9th pick in the draft, so let's not poop on the parade.
jcassio
Starter
I'm not excited, nor happy. Anything less than a top five pick this year and I will be bitterly disappointed. It's hard to feel good about players who are wildly inconsistent. For rookies, you try to give them some slack. But you still expect to see signs of progress. I see progress with Mason, Hield and Bogie. But otherwise I see disappointment and even regression. No potential superstar. Not even a likely all-star. So we need that top five pick and we need to nail it. We need an all-star free agent to sign with us. And we need at least one of our youngsters to emerge as a star.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
well look at it this way, Dennis Smith & Donovan Mitchell type of players were drafted outside of the top 5 and they are core players for their respective teams moving forward so we better hope 2018 has some players slip to us
Larry David
Starter
Folks lock in regarding draft position and how likely a team can find a gem outside the top 5 without looking at actual player development.
The Kings have been trash at development for a decade. Clearly in the bottom 1/3 of the league as to an essential aspect of any franchise getting up off the floor.
Moreover, developing the young players into a couple of all stars is the game plan for getting this team out of the gutter.
If they are still below average on development, they are screwed and the “hey Fox is super young” response isn’t addressing the elephant in the room.
The Kings have been trash at development for a decade. Clearly in the bottom 1/3 of the league as to an essential aspect of any franchise getting up off the floor.
Moreover, developing the young players into a couple of all stars is the game plan for getting this team out of the gutter.
If they are still below average on development, they are screwed and the “hey Fox is super young” response isn’t addressing the elephant in the room.
kingjatt
Starter
Probably the worst in the league at both player development and drafting since 2005-2006, and Vlade has only added to the list of busts and letting talented guys slip past us. When we go conservative we draft a bust in WCS, When we go out on a limb for once we draft Papa. Its like we are snake-bitten. Any team that has actually developed guys did so with tons of court time. When the new warriors ownership came in they made it crystal clear right away that it was Stephs team regardless of his past results. Was Monta a better player at the time like ZBO is right now? OF COURSE but the Warriors and many other teams did it the right way because you always go all the way in on your young guys if your a non playoff team. We seem to be doing the opposite.
It all starts with competent management and ownership and we have neither at the moment. Before competent ownership warriors ownership Keith Smart was freaking starting ACIE LAW over Steph Curry
.....Alot like what we are doing right now. For everyone who is happy with the way Joerger is platooning guys right now to keep everyone happy How upset would you truely be if Vivek issued a press release tomorrow stating that ZBO/G. Hill have been released(no one is trading for those contracts) and we will hand things over to Fox/Mason/Buddy/Papa/Skal etc from here on out, let them sink or swim. We would all be glued to our TVs to see how it unfolds. Watching ZBO run a 1991 offense is not getting many eyes on the Kings ATM.
If the young guys swim and show real promise/flashes great we finally have a young core, if not thats great too because we can get more young guys in here with a higher draft pick, its really a win win for a talent deprived team like the Kings.
Literally any plan involving more shots and time for the young guys is logical. But of course the #Kangzz are implementing the one plan that makes zero sense.
Tired of this whole "vets" thing, let the 24 year olds be the vets.
gunks
Hall of Famer
well look at it this way, Dennis Smith & Donovan Mitchell type of players were drafted outside of the top 5 and they are core players for their respective teams moving forward so we better hope 2018 has some players slip to us
I tell myself this after every win...
Then I remember that our FO is one of those that passes on these gems year after year. And it doesn't seem to matter who the GM is, either.
Sac.1989
Starter
We have stability for once. Mindless, mediocre stability. Either trade for a star and win now (we have decent pieces to do this and still let the kids develop) or let the kids play and add more young talent. These wins dont help anyone right now. Z-bo might have some trade value and we should explore that.
Coach J is a vets coach. Im down with him and i dont want to hold our rookies to the fire but we need more developmental time. Really we need a high pick this draft. That is big.
Somewhere Vlade is thinking. This whole roaming through the wilderness isnt what we need. Fail, Fail quickly and stockpile talent to develop or flick the switch and go for the wins
Coach J is a vets coach. Im down with him and i dont want to hold our rookies to the fire but we need more developmental time. Really we need a high pick this draft. That is big.
Somewhere Vlade is thinking. This whole roaming through the wilderness isnt what we need. Fail, Fail quickly and stockpile talent to develop or flick the switch and go for the wins
Larry David
Starter
The development issue really colors both the refrain of "just be patient" and don't worry "Fox is really young" responses.
Yes, there are prospects here and the one blue chipper is super young. If the team is still below average at developing young players, there simply isn't even a path forward. Not at all.
Frankly, that's why I want a top 3-5 pick. I want someone that's so good that the Kings essentially can't derail his development. And that perhaps enough competency and structure coalesces around that player that other development and good things happen.
The "Just you watch, we'll grab a franchise player at pick 6-8, develop Fox into an All-Star, and take Skal and/or Gilies from project to above average starter" sounds fun ....but this iteration of the team has show absolutely no ability to do any of that. Let alone all of that at once. And those things are hard to do.
Yes, there are prospects here and the one blue chipper is super young. If the team is still below average at developing young players, there simply isn't even a path forward. Not at all.
Frankly, that's why I want a top 3-5 pick. I want someone that's so good that the Kings essentially can't derail his development. And that perhaps enough competency and structure coalesces around that player that other development and good things happen.
The "Just you watch, we'll grab a franchise player at pick 6-8, develop Fox into an All-Star, and take Skal and/or Gilies from project to above average starter" sounds fun ....but this iteration of the team has show absolutely no ability to do any of that. Let alone all of that at once. And those things are hard to do.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
I couldn't watch, but I see that Z-Bo was -5 last night. Did he lead the Kings to the win?
Parker and Gay aren't the same players. The Kings are also in a rebuild and need as much talent as they can get.
Gliesian
Bench
I asked my friend- a Warriors fan of 20 years with a lot of NBA knowledge- how to successfully develop a rebuilding team. His answer was "win games".
Perhaps Joerger and Vlade think we have enough potential talent on this roster and we just need to develop them.
For the playoffs? Sure.
Do we have a Curry, Durant, or LeBron? The idea we have someone on the roster that can reach them is unrealistic.
I hardly care about how awesome the playoff atmosphere will be in the new arena if we never become champions.
IMO The team isn't made without the parade.
On the other hand, perhaps Joerger and Vlade understand this and are just instilling the winning values as a first impression. Maybe the tanking will come in the second half of the season. If I were in charge, I would be doing exactly what we're doing now. Only problem is I don't know what their future plans are. Keeping fingers crossed.
Perhaps Joerger and Vlade think we have enough potential talent on this roster and we just need to develop them.
For the playoffs? Sure.
Do we have a Curry, Durant, or LeBron? The idea we have someone on the roster that can reach them is unrealistic.
I hardly care about how awesome the playoff atmosphere will be in the new arena if we never become champions.
IMO The team isn't made without the parade.
On the other hand, perhaps Joerger and Vlade understand this and are just instilling the winning values as a first impression. Maybe the tanking will come in the second half of the season. If I were in charge, I would be doing exactly what we're doing now. Only problem is I don't know what their future plans are. Keeping fingers crossed.
We're a middling 30-35 win team without enough talent to make the playoffs and without the commitment to being bad to ever improve without a lucky ping pong ball bounce that we'll never realistically get. We're making the same mistakes this year we have the last 10 years and it's going to cost us a top pick this year... no pick in 19, and by 20 we'll still be bad and have all our young guys closer to the end of their rookie contracts where they can and will leave for a bigger and better market. You have to stack young guys and win with those young guys if you intend on keeping them and sometimes even that doesn't work in a small market (see KD). Winning these games against Brooklyn etc. may lead to more short term feel good moments over the course of a season.. but ultimately the same dull hangover at the end we've all become accustomed to since 2004 or so when we miss the playoffs and don't have a shot at a superstar in the draft.
fansinceday1
Starter
You guys just have to accept that we have a front office that does not think long term. A helluva lot of kings fans want to see wins now, long term future be damned, and by god, that's what this FO has givin them.
It's easier to just accept who we are instead of constantly banging your head against the wall wondering why this franchise does what it does.
My saving grace is watching the 49ers do a rebuild correctly. They were losing and losing a lot and the fans were fine with it because we could see the direction the franchise was moving. Then their new forward thinking GM pulls a rabbit out of his hat and produces a franchise QB. Now the future could not be brighter.
It's easier to just accept who we are instead of constantly banging your head against the wall wondering why this franchise does what it does.
My saving grace is watching the 49ers do a rebuild correctly. They were losing and losing a lot and the fans were fine with it because we could see the direction the franchise was moving. Then their new forward thinking GM pulls a rabbit out of his hat and produces a franchise QB. Now the future could not be brighter.
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No I agree, it's what you get when you have amateurs running the show. I've accepted we're back to the 80's and are in some bizarro reiteration of Bill (Vlade) Russell will save us because he was good at basketball. I'm just waiting for the next Ralph Sampson trade (Unless Buddy secretly has terrible knees and it already happened)!
I've accepted it, it's just every now and then I have to vent.
kingjatt
Starter
I do not get Buddy/JJ/Frank/Skal playing sub 20 minutes against a scrubby nets team. I want the young guys to always play more but against a team like this all of the 'overwhelmed" "slowly build confidence" excuses go out of the window. These games against other losing teams are games we should use to let these guys run, Fox when hes healthy as well. We already know ZBO/G.Hill can beat these Nets.
The Lakers today played Ingram/Ball/kuzma 35+ mins today and what a shocker, those guys seem to be geling with more playing time. In fact they routinely see 30-35 MPG while there "vets" ride the pine and game by game they are actually looking much better.
Not sure if any of the young guys will see a single 38-40 minute game all year, let alone a 35+ min game for an entire group of young guys at the same time.
Joerger is Keith Smart 2.0 with his rotations.
The Lakers today played Ingram/Ball/kuzma 35+ mins today and what a shocker, those guys seem to be geling with more playing time. In fact they routinely see 30-35 MPG while there "vets" ride the pine and game by game they are actually looking much better.
Not sure if any of the young guys will see a single 38-40 minute game all year, let alone a 35+ min game for an entire group of young guys at the same time.
Joerger is Keith Smart 2.0 with his rotations.
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