Rebuild Strategy (or WE WANT LINS!)

How would you like the rebuild handled?

  • Wouldn't change a thing. Joeger and Vlade doing it right.

    Votes: 22 52.4%
  • Only youth plays no vets

    Votes: 10 23.8%
  • Somewhere in the middle

    Votes: 10 23.8%

  • Total voters
    42
  • Poll closed .
I do not get Buddy/JJ/Frank/Skal playing sub 20 minutes against a scrubby nets team. I want the young guys to always play more but against a team like this all of the 'overwhelmed" "slowly build confidence" excuses go out of the window. These games against other losing teams are games we should use to let these guys run, Fox when hes healthy as well. We already know ZBO/G.Hill can beat these Nets.

The Lakers today played Ingram/Ball/kuzma 35+ mins today and what a shocker, those guys seem to be geling with more playing time. In fact they routinely see 30-35 MPG while there "vets" ride the pine and game by game they are actually looking much better.

Not sure if any of the young guys will see a single 38-40 minute game all year, let alone a 35+ min game for an entire group of young guys at the same time.

Joerger is Keith Smart 2.0 with his rotations.
Yeah, I am going to have to see a little more of the lakers' rebuild before I hold it up as the model to follow.
 
I do not get Buddy/JJ/Frank/Skal playing sub 20 minutes against a scrubby nets team. I want the young guys to always play more but against a team like this all of the 'overwhelmed" "slowly build confidence" excuses go out of the window. These games against other losing teams are games we should use to let these guys run, Fox when hes healthy as well. We already know ZBO/G.Hill can beat these Nets.

The Lakers today played Ingram/Ball/kuzma 35+ mins today and what a shocker, those guys seem to be geling with more playing time. In fact they routinely see 30-35 MPG while there "vets" ride the pine and game by game they are actually looking much better.

Not sure if any of the young guys will see a single 38-40 minute game all year, let alone a 35+ min game for an entire group of young guys at the same time.

Joerger is Keith Smart 2.0 with his rotations.
Ultimately Joerger tries to do, what every coach should do - he tries to win and to make games mean something.
When you look at the Lakers roster they only have about 3 serviceable veterans and two of these guys play center, which allows they to play all of their main prospects alongside their vets. We on the other hand drafted two pgs and signed Hill, we have plenty of young bigs, who need minutes and signed Zbo.
Its a roster construction issue and while Joerger played a part in our FA, he only did, because Vlade allowed it. Wether people like it or not- Vlade is the elephant in the room not Joerger.
 
Ultimately Joerger tries to do, what every coach should do - he tries to win and to make games mean something.
When you look at the Lakers roster they only have about 3 serviceable veterans and two of these guys play center, which allows they to play all of their main prospects alongside their vets. We on the other hand drafted two pgs and signed Hill, we have plenty of young bigs, who need minutes and signed Zbo.
Its a roster construction issue and while Joerger played a part in our FA, he only did, because Vlade allowed it. Wether people like it or not- Vlade is the elephant in the room not Joerger.
you are absolutely right, this is all vlade, not joeger. Vlade knows his coach and his preferences. If joeger has a veteran preference and if the kings really wanted a true blue 100% rebuild, then it's on vlade to deal the vets joeger favors out from under him. Force him to do what the FO wants.

Now maybe joeger IS doing what the FO wants. If that's the case then we are all in for an extended period of mediocrity. More of what we've seen this past decade.
 
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We're Kings Fans, We're not allowed to have anything nice. Kings are Now in the 8th Spot. Same at last year.
I don’t understand playing Hill 35 Minutes? Unless, it’s to raise his trade value. I am not saying to tank intentionally, But the young players should be getting a lot more burn. But, Of course the Kings FO didn’t unload 30 plus million on 2 vets who are going to help the Kings fight and claw to a possible 8 seed. Tell me it’s not true?

Kings have some winnable games coming up by New Years: Clips, Grizz, and Suns> Lets just assume Cleve and Spurs will take care of business. I would say 14-22

Actually, Jan is not very daunting at all: Pels, Spurs, and Nuggets are the only teams with winning records.

Jan: Nuggets,Spurs, Lakers, Clips 2wice, Thunder, Jazz, Grizz,Hornets twice, Magic, Heat, Spurs, and Pels
7-7 is a very real possibility

Feb: Dubs, Mavs 2wice, Blazers twice,Bulls, Wolves twice, Rockets, Thunder, and Lakers. Probably 4-7

March: Nets, Jazz, Knicks, Pels, Magic, Nuggets, Thunder, Heat, Dubs 2twice,Jazz, Pistons, Hawks, Celtics, and Mavs. I am guesing 7-8

April: Lakers, Suns, Grizz, Spurs,and Rockets, 2-3

I have them about 33 wins. If they keep both Randolph and Hill pass the trade deadline. That will put them in about the same draft position as least year.

Unless the 2 main vets are moved, that’s a very real win total.
 
you are absolutely right, this is all vlade, not joeger. Vlade knows his coach and his preferences. If joeger has a veteran preference and if the kings really wanted a true blue 100% rebuild, then it's on vlade to deal the vets joeger favors out from under him. Force him to do what the FO wants.

Now maybe joeger is doing what the FO wants. If that's the case then we are all in for an extended period of mediocrity. More of what we've seen this past decade.

It's called Kings Purgatory. It will continue until someone competent is running the FO. Kings are never smart of bad enough to get a Top 3 pick. In addition, gravitating between 25-25 wins every year won't get you a playoff spot either.
 
For this Nets game, I would've preferred to let Mason and Hield work through their shooting struggles. That's what proper rebuilding teams do. I hate pointing out Donovan Mitchell over and over again, but Snyder has let him work out his rough starting patches. We might have a special talent on this team and not even knowing it because they get short leashes.
 
At this point, I tend to believe that the plan has never changed. The Kings want to win as many games as possible while gathering the best prospects they can after falling well short of the playoffs. When the offseason starts, they'd like to sign a young player that helps now and can develop. As soon as they realize that's not going to happen, they sign vets to win now. They try to win as many games as possible shooting for the playoffs. When the player quit based upon dysfunction or the playoffs get too far away, they start to tank. They end up with a middling first round pick. Wash and repeat.

The Kings have sucked for a loooooonnnnng while. In February 2017, the primed the pump for one rough tank season. The local media prepped the fans for a long slog. They got off to a horrible start and die hards were flat out saying "Just suck it up it's 82 games" And it was clearly just one year because they don't have the 2019 pick. So, one proper tank job out of 13 seasons of bad. Ok, makes sense and fine. Follow through on the February promise.

Nope.

They never changed anything. It's the exact same plan for every King season. Stay on the treadmill of mediocrity and hope some of our draft picks hit. (Sadly being the 7th worst team in the league because you tired to max out bad is actually a fairly fine plan for 2019 because the lottery odds shift, it's just that we don't have a 2019 pick.) They told George Hill we'd gun for the playoffs. And they are chasing wins in Brooklyn with heavy vet minutes as the win total flirts with moving from pretty bad to really mediocre.

They either:

(1) planned to rebuild and tank this season in February but abrupty changed course yet again a few months later (totally possible with the owner)
(2) never planned to materially shift their model, lied and spun BS when they made the Cousins trade to cover for Vivek, and choose to keep trying a really dumb long shot plan (again very possible because of the owner and managment)

Either way the plan is dumb and dysfunctional.

What a mess
 
I am a very positive person who really respects the opinions of others. That said, To all you people who complain and second guess when we lose that is to be expected. when you second guess when we win, well maybe you need to take a long look at yourselves. No one here is a expert and there is no right way to rebuild. The plan has been expressed over and over. Draft good young players and surround them with quality vets. Then try to win the games. That is what we have been told and that is what we are doing. so if your miserable about it, get over it. this damn team is winning and are fun to watch again. I watch every game and come on here daily and mostly shake my head at some of you. I am a Kings fan and like ten's of thousands of other Kings fans we want the team to win, Next year will take care of itself. The only people bitching and moaning when the Kings win are the select few of you who think that you know more and want to express it over and over again. To those who enjoy the Kings games won or lose I salute you
 
Bad news: another win on the backs of Z-bo and Hill!

Baddish good (goodish bad?) news: back to back road wins is good for the team culture. Joerger does seem to have the team trending in the right direction. Defense is coming along.

Good news: a few of our lotto rivals won tonight as well! So we're still in the mix for that coveted top 5 pick!
 
For this Nets game, I would've preferred to let Mason and Hield work through their shooting struggles. That's what proper rebuilding teams do. I hate pointing out Donovan Mitchell over and over again, but Snyder has let him work out his rough starting patches. We might have a special talent on this team and not even knowing it because they get short leashes.
Lonzo too. He's coming around his last 10 games and is starting to show his immense potential... Gee, what a concept eh?
 
Bad news: another win on the backs of Z-bo and Hill!

Baddish good (goodish bad?) news: back to back road wins is good for the team culture. Joerger does seem to have the team trending in the right direction. Defense is coming along.

Good news: a few of our lotto rivals won tonight as well! So we're still in the mix for that coveted top 5 pick!
I consider that horrific news we should be taking advantage of Dallas and Chicago winning.

Yeah were not following any model at the moment. We are too scared to commit to a full rebuild/youth movement and too talent deprived to compete for anything.
I’m not the brightest but this should answer the question of what to do.
 
I'm at the point where I'm just over the whole expecting the GM to do something that's going to help the team long run via way of player development/trade/draft position. The trade to the 76ers was the first and should have been the final nail in the coffin now all that's left to do is sit back and enjoy whatever we currently have, honestly I prefer watching this team than any of the teams in the previous 7 seasons. At least we got a bunch of somewhat likeable players (imo anyway) for once which is step up over what we had before, despite other than Giles/Fox me not expecting much out of any of them.

Sucks we are in the position we are in but that's what occurs when you make stupid choices in order to appease certain players/owners. Reality will eventually take care of problems you refuse to acknowledge or see.
 
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I am a very positive person who really respects the opinions of others. That said, To all you people who complain and second guess when we lose that is to be expected. when you second guess when we win, well maybe you need to take a long look at yourselves. No one here is a expert and there is no right way to rebuild. The plan has been expressed over and over. Draft good young players and surround them with quality vets. Then try to win the games. That is what we have been told and that is what we are doing. so if your miserable about it, get over it. this damn team is winning and are fun to watch again. I watch every game and come on here daily and mostly shake my head at some of you. I am a Kings fan and like ten's of thousands of other Kings fans we want the team to win, Next year will take care of itself. The only people bitching and moaning when the Kings win are the select few of you who think that you know more and want to express it over and over again. To those who enjoy the Kings games won or lose I salute you
Heh, I had a long post explaining my views to you. Just erased it because it won't change your views. I don't care to change your views. Just don't come here and demean us fans who don't agree with you. Is that how a "positive" person who "respects the opinions of others" acts? If you don't like us miserable complainers then don't read or post here at the rebuild strategy thread. No ones forcing you to.
 
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you guys wanna go real dark?
Chew on this.

A post from sac town royalty.
Poster, LaBradford:

Hopefully the FO doesn't trade some youth for more veteran mentors in the hopes of making a playoff push.


 
Once again I hate to be the one to bring reality to the draft. The Kings seldom get a top 3 pick. Look at the history of the last 30 years:

Click to see Kings draft history---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_Kings_draft_history

This is the reason I see the logic in Vlade's strategy of trading for multiple picks. Trades like swapping #8 pick Marquese Chriss for Bogdan, Papa and Skal gives the Kings more chances of finding a good player IMO.

Now all that said I want the highest pick possible. But logic dictates using history as an indicator of future events.
 
you guys wanna go real dark?
Chew on this.

A post from sac town royalty.
Poster, LaBradford:

Hopefully the FO doesn't trade some youth for more veteran mentors in the hopes of making a playoff push.
Is he an insider?

I mean if NO and OKC fold and trade there FA guys I wouldn’t be opposed to PG13 and Boogie
 
Is he an insider?

I mean if NO and OKC fold and trade there FA guys I wouldn’t be opposed to PG13 and Boogie
No insider.
With Viveks past of switching directions Willy nilly, one would hope he doesn't get too overenthused with our current winning and go all in this year thinking "gee, we have a serious chance to make the playoffs this year."
 
Hand wringing about draft picks and whether to tank or not is a waste of time. Plenty of teams have done fine without any high draft picks. The Kings have managed to be a losing team by squandering their high draft picks. They are masters at it. Frank Mason and IT are examples of great talent available to any team. I believe that winning is how you build the culture, its how you get free agents and trades to come to Sacramento. Coach is doing a good job. In case no one noticed the Kings just won two in a row on the road. Besides Zbo, the players that lead the team in scoring change practically every night. Everyone is a getting a chance. Sacto defense continues to improve. The Kings outrebounded the Nets last night which is a great sign. The confidence level has improved greatly allowing the Kings to close out some games. Winning matters and I see no problem with using some veterans to teach the youngins how to do it.
 
For this Nets game, I would've preferred to let Mason and Hield work through their shooting struggles. That's what proper rebuilding teams do. I hate pointing out Donovan Mitchell over and over again, but Snyder has let him work out his rough starting patches. We might have a special talent on this team and not even knowing it because they get short leashes.
Snyder has placed him in a prominent role for sure. He’s making a case for ROY but I can’t look back questioning that pick, though I appreciate those who thought of him as skilled coming in, as he’s a SG and we were perceivably strong there in the summer
 
I understand the idea that getting higher draft spot is better than the lower spot, doh.

How much it is important is another thing.

I think that poster child of the tank at all cost approach is Philly.

Philly has 4+ years of intentional tanking, year after year multiple high draft picks.
Kings, do not know how to tank, suck for 4+ years in limbo of getting nowhere, in the first year of full rebuild.

Philly has 14 wins this year, Kings have 11.
14 wins now is 38 wins on the seasonal level.
Kings on the pace to 29.

That is after 4 YEARS of doing what some folks are advertising here as if it is the main solution to Kings woes.

If you would prefer team that makes their product unwatchable for years and call 4 years later 38 wins success Kings should emulate, that is your preference.

I am glad that Kings are not doing the same.
 
Kings fans defending the treadmill of mediocrity and then getting mad at the people pointing out the team remains trash because the plan was and remains bad. Rinse, repeat.
The team has been bad for many years or "trash" as you suggest. However, the idea that this year is a rinse and repeat ignores the fact that 4-5 1st to 3rd year players are getting significant minutes and playing important roles. This is not the same as the last decade.

People can argue whether they are getting enough minutes or whether the team is constructed properly or whether the result is going to be different (we don't know yet) , but it's clearly not the same load of laundry.
 
About the Kings and their rebuilding effort and this forum’s periodic meltdowns over that process. After every win there are multiple complaints basically about winning, not getting the coveted “lin”. It usually centers around Joerger playing the vets just to get a win and not playing they young guys as many minutes as the complainant would like so that the “lin” could be achieved.

It appears that the people in the “lin” community have the opinion that Joerger should just throw the young guys out there helter-skelter with no on-the-floor guidance and they will learn and develop and learn the right way to play, they will play with the right amount of effort and preparation even though they know they are being given playing time anyway, bad habits will magically go away and their performance will improve regardless of how poorly they play (poor performance is to be hoped for and rewarded with more playing time so as to get that “lin).

They do not believe for a minute that Joerger is trying to develop young players by having a mixture of vets and young guns on the floor so that the young guys can learn his system, the team can run some semblance of offensive sets and defensive rotations, learn how to win close games, that poor performing or out of control young players can be pulled, settled down, impressed with the need to break those bad habits if they want playing time, etc. No, it’s all about how Joerger is only interested in playing his “pet player” Zach and getting a few meaningless wins and knocking the Kings out of a top 3 draft-pick. I am not buying that. I think it is all about the “lins”. I think anytime the Kings win, the “lin” people will find a reason to complain. If he played all young guys and they began performing just well enough that they won enough games to push the team’s lottery a number a little higher, they would complain that he should play the vets more so that their trade value would increase or maybe the guys on the end of the bench “to see what they got” more (hoping that maybe that would lower team performance and the Kings would get those coveted “lins”). They are rooting for their team to lose, I just don’t get that.
 
As for the rebuild, my opinion is that the Kings, Joerger, Vlad, the FO, made the decision to rebuild by using the vets as mentors, they said as much. Now, maybe people thought that meant that the vets would just sit on the bench and cheer the young guys on. It does not appear to be what they have in mind and I doubt that is the way the sold it to the vets when they signed them with the understanding that they would be mentors. I think the plan was to use the vets mixed in with the young guys exactly as they have been used, having a mixture of vets and young guns on the floor so that the young guys can learn his system, the team can run some semblance of offensive sets and defensive rotations, learn how to win close games, that poor performing or out of control young players can be pulled, settled down, impressed with the need to break those bad habits if they want playing time, etc. I think that was the plan from day one and I think they have stuck with it. I think as the young guys improve, they will gradually be rewarded with more playing time and the vets time will decrease. There will be bumps in the road. Guys will show a lot of improvement and then regress, it’s part of the learning curve.

Is this the best possible plan for a rebuild? I don’t know, but neither does anybody else on here. You may think you know, but you really don’t. The truth is, there are probably multiple rebuild paths that would work. The Kings have chosen this one. Joerger has pretty much said from day one that it is going to take a while, I believe he has mentioned a minimum of 18 months before seeing any real improvement. However, I think we are already seeing some slight improvement. This team was just awful the first two weeks of the season. Vets and youth alike looked totally lost and out of synch (as was to be expected) with the low point being the 46-point loss to the Hawks. But here lately, we are seeing long stretches of games where players on the floor together, vets and youth, almost look like they know what they are doing, playing with a purpose (and we also see stretches where the young guys have that “deer in the headlights” look or have young guys losing their composure and playing out of control after they have played a pretty good stretch of smart, controlled basketball). I’m all for giving the Kings rebuild time to work, after all, it’s the only rebuild choice I got.
 
About tanking, I hated the tanking by several teams at the end of last season. The fact that tanking is even in the discussion 21 games into the season is even worse. I have problems with the concept of a full -blown tank. I believe the NBA powers that be do also, hence the upcoming lottery rules change discussions for future drafts. They did not intend for the lottery process to be taken advantage of, in effect cheated. The NBA Draft Lottery is the league’s attempt to keep bad teams competing and to provide a deterrent for tanking that gives every non-playoff team a chance at the No. 1-overall pick.

Normally, a game is a competition between two teams where the object is to win the game. So, you play your best available players and try to follow a strategy that will give you the best chance to win. May the best team win. If they don’t, it’s considered an upset. Fans become attached to a team and they root for the team’s success and this generally means rooting for them to win.

Now, I am ok with a long-term strategy where you are in a “developmental mode”. The object becomes less about winning than about developing/growing youthful or inexperienced players. Some potential wins may be sacrificed now to the player development process in order to, hopefully reap greater rewards in the form of a greater number of wins in the future, but you don’t deliberately aspire to lose. Your most talented young players play, but their playing time might be based on performance and growth. This evaluation process is actually what the lottery was supposed to be about. Your win/loss record should reflect the actual assessment of your talent in comparison to the other teams and this determines where you fit in the lottery. You haven’t artificially lowered your winning percentage (cheated) just to try and take advantage of the lottery process.

Now a full-blown tank would appear to be me to be when you go about game lineups and strategy to deliberately lose so as to gain draft position. Everything else is secondary. You “rest” players so as to not have some of your best players available, you play poor performing players more so as increase the odds of a loss, player development be damned.

To me this is extremely distasteful. It’s borderline immoral or at least unethical. Tanking is no great big secret, only known to a few select teams. Everybody knows about it. Any team can choose to tank. Now if all 14 lottery teams are willing to tank, I guess you have to ask yourself, how far are you willing to take the tank process? If you are fiddling around with your lineup and resting players, losing some games, but staying under the commissioner’s tanking radar, but other teams appear to be tanking more steadily and you find you have fallen out of that coveted worst 3 or worst 5 or whatever you are shooting for, what do you do? How far do you push the tank? Push it too far, I guess forfeiting games would be the ultimate limit, and the commissioner’s office will step in.

I would guess that it would be harder to lose a game when both teams are actively trying to lose, than it is to win a game. It would be a comedy of errors. Now I doubt any player that steps on the floor is looking at the “big picture” and playing to lose. I doubt the majority of the coaches are. I think they are all too competitive and want to win anytime they step on the court, I sure hope so. The front office can probably impact the tanking process quite a bit. I think the tanking we have seen is more about the front office determining player availability and possibly pressuring coaches on who and how much they play.
 
I understand the idea that getting higher draft spot is better than the lower spot, doh.

How much it is important is another thing.

I think that poster child of the tank at all cost approach is Philly.

Philly has 4+ years of intentional tanking, year after year multiple high draft picks.
Kings, do not know how to tank, suck for 4+ years in limbo of getting nowhere, in the first year of full rebuild.

Philly has 14 wins this year, Kings have 11.
14 wins now is 38 wins on the seasonal level.
Kings on the pace to 29.

That is after 4 YEARS of doing what some folks are advertising here as if it is the main solution to Kings woes.

If you would prefer team that makes their product unwatchable for years and call 4 years later 38 wins success Kings should emulate, that is your preference.

I am glad that Kings are not doing the same.
All of this is true, but you're ignoring the core foundational players they've acquired while tanking. Embiid and Ben Simmons look like perennial all-stars of the future. We haven't even had a chance to see what Fultz is capable of. There are of course no guarantees, but they look to be a team that's probably going to continue to get better, considering how young they are, and how good those young guys are already.

We have 11 wins on the back of Z-Bo, who's gonna be out of the league in a couple of years. What happens then?

For the record, I was against the sixers tanking, and have rooted against them for it. But at least when they decided to rebuild, they went all in. We have continually played both sides of the fence year after year, patching holes to try and stay competitive, and where has it gotten us? Right now, nobody knows if we are actually rebuilding or not, and that's a problem.

If we can't commit to a full rebuild, and do it the right way, nothing is ever going to change.
 
We have 11 wins on the back of Z-Bo
Do we, though? I know I've raised this before, and I posted this on Sactown Royalty yesterday but no one was willing to take me up on it...

Would love to see someone do a thorough analysis of this. As of yesterday, Z-Bo's net rating on B-R was -13.8/100 possessions, second-worst on the team. He had the worst on/off, at -7.5. Maybe those numbers are slightly higher after yesterday's win, but still... the advanced stats aren't pretty.

But by watching games, you notice Z-Bo has made crucial plays down the stretch that has helped the team in some of the wins.

The team is also over-performing in terms of wins expected versus its point differential. Are a few bad runs/losses skewing the stats? Or are a few clutch plays inflating the win total?