Rebounding Problem (Shareef is not the problem)

yanon said:
The last time I check SAR is not starting.

He's also making near the lowest salary on the team.

I'd be upset if we paid him the max and expected him to save the franchise, but he's making the MLE and playing some decent basketball, in my opinion.
 
SAR had trouble defending an over-the-hill, out-of-shape Brian Grant in this last loss vs. Phoenix. That definitely is not gonna get it done if the Kings happen to meet them in the playoffs, good rebounding or not.
 
all i hear is negative things about SAR in this forum. I don't see him getting the same respect as Miller or Bibby while both players have MAJOR weaknesses on defense.

Miller averages 7.8 REBOUNDS PER GAME. Im sorry but for a team that needs rebounding from their center that just wont cut it. Why should Reef get more of blame then Miller.

Is it because Miller can hit a few 3s and pass while letting every center in the nba have season nights?

Is it because he's been here a few years longer and that we should build our team around a unathletic poor rebounding overpaid center?

I'm not saying that Miller should leave but no one seems to pick on him as much as they pick on SAR.

And you know what? I don't remember rebounding being an this BIG of an issue during the first half of the season. If i recall correctly i think we actually rebounded better with SAR and Bonzi starting. Since KT started i've noticed our rebounding numbers drop.
 
BigSong said:
SAR had trouble defending an over-the-hill, out-of-shape Brian Grant in this last loss vs. Phoenix. That definitely is not gonna get it done if the Kings happen to meet them in the playoffs, good rebounding or not.

Ok im sure KTs 0 points and 3 rebounds will help us win playoff games.
 
Rome said:
all i hear is negative things about SAR in this forum. I don't see him getting the same respect as Miller or Bibby while both players have MAJOR weaknesses on defense.

Miller averages 7.8 REBOUNDS PER GAME. Im sorry but for a team that needs rebounding from their center that just wont cut it. Why should Reef get more of blame then Miller.

Is it because Miller can hit a few 3s and pass while letting every center in the nba have season nights?

Is it because he's been here a few years longer and that we should build our team around a unathletic poor rebounding overpaid center?

I'm not saying that Miller should leave but no one seems to pick on him as much as they pick on SAR.

And you know what? I don't remember rebounding being an this BIG of an issue during the first half of the season. If i recall correctly i think we actually rebounded better with SAR and Bonzi starting. Since KT started i've noticed our rebounding numbers drop.

What a crock.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people want to make broad generalizations about "this forum"... especially people who were banned previously but came back because this is the most active Kings message board on the Internet. :rolleyes:

If you have a point of disagreement, you're free to say so. But you do not need to act as though you and you alone have the right to judge the rest of us.

This is a richly diverse group of people and, for the most part, virtually every single side of an issue is represented. Feel free to add your comments to whichever side of the TOPIC at hand you're interested in but please - save the "this forum is..." stuff for somewhere else.
 
VF21 said:
What a crock.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people want to make broad generalizations about "this forum"... especially people who were banned previously but came back because this is the most active Kings message board on the Internet. :rolleyes:

If you have a point of disagreement, you're free to say so. But you do not need to act as though you and you alone have the right to judge the rest of us.

This is a richly diverse group of people and, for the most part, virtually every single side of an issue is represented. Feel free to add your comments to whichever side of the TOPIC at hand you're interested in but please - save the "this forum is..." stuff for somewhere else.

point me out one thread thats labeled "Brad Miller's defense and rebounding"
 
oh yea and i wanted to include that im not a Reef homer. I actually think we need a TOTALLY different type of PF then the one's we currently have.

But i do think it would be wise to keep Reef because of his energy/offense off the bench.
 
Well, to be honest, I'd probably say a lot more positive things about SAR, but there's so many SAR fans in here acting like the guy has no deficiencies in his game and complaining about his lack of playing time and how he's being used wrong. I don't need to add much. More, it makes me feel more like pointing out that he DOES have deficiencies to his game, just like any other player.

As to the respect Brad and Bibby get....you must be blind to the millions of blasting posts they get in here (all right....thousands;)). But to some extent, to the Kings faithful, they have earned some respect. Doesn't mean we don't complain about their deficiencies, too.

Finally, if you told me I'd have to go into the playoffs without either Brad or Bibby or SAR? For me, that's a no brainer. Forced to choose (god forbid and knock on wood), SAR would be out. I'd be curious to know what anyone else would vote.
 
Rome said:
And you know what? I don't remember rebounding being an this BIG of an issue during the first half of the season. If i recall correctly i think we actually rebounded better with SAR and Bonzi starting. Since KT started i've noticed our rebounding numbers drop.

Selective memory.

November: Kings 39.4
December: Kings 38.1
January: Kings 43.3
February: Kings 42.8
March: Kings 41.1
April: Kings 35.0
 
Rome said:
oh yea and i wanted to include that im not a Reef homer. I actually think we need a TOTALLY different type of PF then the one's we currently have.

But i do think it would be wise to keep Reef because of his energy/offense off the bench.
Now that I agree with. And at his salary, its reasonable to keep him for that purpose. Don't know how he'd like it.
 
Rome said:
point me out one thread thats labeled "Brad Miller's defense and rebounding"

Bahahahaha... If you don't think Brad has taken his share of critisism you are INSANE... He has been the object of scrutiny more than any other player not named Jason Hart...
 
Okay lets get over this SAR thing cause its starting to get annoying. to be quite honest I think everyone on this team should get their fair share in lack of rebounding.
 
Our rebounding problem isn't Shareef, it isn't Kenny Thomas, and it isn't our shooting guard bonzi wells. Quit making retarded combinations of the lineups that would possibly give us the most rebounds, the fact is Brad Miller can't jump, box out, or block to save his life. I just laughed to myself when I saw him trying to outrebound a 6'7 shawn marion, who jumped right over him for a board. Miller stands at the top of the key and waits 5 or 6 seconds until someone gets open, leans to the side and passes them the ball. Then you have the 8 it takes to get up the court, before you know it you're working with an 8 second shot clock. But you're saying to yourself, but he's been hitting 3 point shots lately! Your shooting guard should be filling that gap, not a 7 foot center who should be in the post boxing out, grabbing boards. We have a screwed up lineup because Bonzi can't hit an outside shot and that forces other people to make up for it. The rebounding problem starts with our Center, not Shareef who has been playing stellar.
 
beemerr23 said:
Our rebounding problem isn't Shareef, it isn't Kenny Thomas, and it isn't our shooting guard bonzi wells. Quit making retarded combinations of the lineups that would possibly give us the most rebounds, the fact is Brad Miller can't jump, box out, or block to save his life. I just laughed to myself when I saw him trying to outrebound a 6'7 shawn marion, who jumped right over him for a board. Miller stands at the top of the key and waits 5 or 6 seconds until someone gets open, leans to the side and passes them the ball. Then you have the 8 it takes to get up the court, before you know it you're working with an 8 second shot clock. But you're saying to yourself, but he's been hitting 3 point shots lately! Your shooting guard should be filling that gap, not a 7 foot center who should be in the post boxing out, grabbing boards. We have a screwed up lineup because Bonzi can't hit an outside shot and that forces other people to make up for it. The rebounding problem starts with our Center, not Shareef who has been playing stellar.

thats what i've been trying to say but apparently i can't anymore because people disagree + i might get banned so i just don't bring it up anymore.
 
Rome: nobody ever complains about Miller's weaknesses!

:: provides proof that people complain about Miller's weaknesses ::

Rome: Okay, let's get over this SAR cause it's starting to get annoying.

...

Whatever you say, chief... :rolleyes:


beemerr23 said:
don't worry, my post will probably get deleted.
Spare me. Your post isn't going to get deleted; quit trying to bait the mods.
 
Rome said:
thats what i've been trying to say but apparently i can't anymore because people disagree
If *that's* what you've been trying to say, you've done a horrible job of expressing yourself...


Rome said:
+ i might get banned so i just don't bring it up anymore.
And here we go with this again... :rolleyes:

You know, when someone makes these martyr-esque comments, it usually means that they're spoiling for a fight...
 
For the record, I wasn't trying to point a finger at Brad Miller or anyone else with this thread -- the numbers show that Brad's a decent rebounder and he's not really draging the team down, and to single him out for blame doesn't really make sense to me.

Of course, Brad, Shareef and Kenny being "decent" rebounders is part of the problem. The Kings have a bunch of "decent" rebounders, which means they're a middling rebounding team. Interestingly enough, when you look at the good rebounding teams (Clippers, Jazz, Miami, Knicks, Dallas) they're not the teams with one dominant rebounder, they're the teams with a bunch of good rebounders. It just goes to show how much team rebounding is team based.
 
Er...please refer to my earlier post putting forth numbers and ranks.

Neither Brad or Reef are decent rebounders. They are atrrocious rebounders. Mike has sucked this year as well, although he plays a position where it does not matter as much. Ron is below average.

We have ONE good rebounder -- KT. And ONE great rebounder -- Bonzi. The kids are ok for swingmen. Everyone else pretty much sucks.
 
As an aside -- the question arose why our rebounding has fallen off this month. Here are the numbers. They ain't pretty.

April Rebounding

Kings: 35.0 reb/gm
Opp: 43.7 reb/gm
Diff: -8.7 reb/gm

Bibby: 41.7min 3.3reb (weak even for a PG given the minutes)
Artest: 40.8min 4.3reb (very weak Pejaesque effort on the glass this month)
Miller: 38.5min 8.5reb (acceptable, one of only two reboudners this month)
Bonzi: 35.7min 8.0reb (remains simply amazing for a guard)
Kenny: 26.7min 4.8reb (has suddenly quit playing and rebounding)
Reef: 23.5min 2.8reb (speaking of guards, Reef is rebounding like one)
Kevin: 19.2min 1.8reb (weak)
 
Bricklayer said:
As an aside -- the question arose why our rebounding has fallen off this month. Here are the numbers. They ain't pretty.

April Rebounding

Kings: 35.0 reb/gm
Opp: 43.7 reb/gm
Diff: -8.7 reb/gm

Bibby: 41.7min 3.3reb (weak even for a PG given the minutes)
Artest: 40.8min 4.3reb (very weak Pejaesque effort on the glass this month)
Miller: 38.5min 8.5reb (acceptable, one of only two reboudners this month)
Bonzi: 35.7min 8.0reb (remains simply amazing for a guard)
Kenny: 26.7min 4.8reb (has suddenly quit playing and rebounding)
Reef: 23.5min 2.8reb (speaking of guards, Reef is rebounding like one)
Kevin: 19.2min 1.8reb (weak)

I think where we're differing is that from a team rebounding perspective it really doesn't matter who's doing the rebounding. If Bonzi wants to go and get 15 rebounds, great. He's especially helpful getting offensive rebounds. But if Bonzi is not in the game, the defensive rebounding rate doesn't down the tube. Sure, he's a good rebounder, but if he's not in the game Brad or KT or Shareef are going to get a lot of those rebounds, if not all of them. And the numbers bear this out.

The Kings aren't a terrible rebounding team -- worse than average, but not terrible. They need to be better to contend, but they need to be better at a lot of things to contend.
 
nbrans said:
I think where we're differing is that from a team rebounding perspective it really doesn't matter who's doing the rebounding. If Bonzi wants to go and get 15 rebounds, great. He's especially helpful getting offensive rebounds. But if Bonzi is not in the game, the defensive rebounding rate doesn't down the tube. Sure, he's a good rebounder, but if he's not in the game Brad or KT or Shareef are going to get a lot of those rebounds, if not all of them. And the numbers bear this out.

The Kings aren't a terrible rebounding team -- worse than average, but not terrible. They need to be better to contend, but they need to be better at a lot of things to contend.

a) we're ranked 25 of 30 teams in the NBA in rebounding %. We pretty much suck, although there are a handful worse. This month we've VERY much sucked.

b) It VERY much matters when people suck on the glass. There isn't a certain pool of rebounds that only your team can get. You grab the extra ones from the OTHER team.

c) the 82 games stat that you've apparently been looking at turns out to be bunk. The proof:
Kevin Garnett +1.4%
Tim Duncan +1.0%
Ben Wallace -1.6%

Meanwhile:
Brad Miller +2.1%
Shareef +0.7%
Ron Artest +2.2%
Mike Bibby +0.9%
Bonzi Wells +1.8%
Kenny Thomas +0.9%
Kevin Martin +0.1%

Yet another one of those 82games stats that somehow it means nothing. Gotta be careful of that site sometimes. According to that stat NOBODY means anything to his team on the glass, and I guess it just does not matter. And somehow the entire rotation of our sad rebounding squad is on the plus side of the margin. Whatever that stat was trying to say, it fails the very simple reality test.
 
Bricklayer said:
a) we're ranked 25 of 30 teams in the NBA in rebounding %. We pretty much suck, although there are a handful worse. This month we've VERY much sucked.

b) It VERY much matters when people suck on the glass. There isn't a certain pool of rebounds that only your team can get. You grab the extra ones from the OTHER team.

c) the 82 games stat that you've apparently been looking at turns out to be bunk. The proof:
Kevin Garnett +1.4%
Tim Duncan +1.0%
Ben Wallace -1.6%

Meanwhile:
Brad Miller +2.1%
Shareef +0.7%
Ron Artest +2.2%
Mike Bibby +0.9%
Bonzi Wells +1.8%
Kenny Thomas +0.9%
Kevin Martin +0.1%

Yet another one of those 82games stats that somehow it means nothing. Gotta be careful of that site sometimes. According to that stat NOBODY means anything to his team on the glass, and I guess it just does not matter. And somehow the entire rotation of our sad rebounding squad is on the plus side of the margin. Whatever that stat was trying to say, it fails the very simple reality test.

As you know, with any stat there's a right way and a wrong way to use the stats. I didn't use the stat you're citing (the on court/off court % difference) becuase it's influenced by the changeover that has happened throughout the season. Since the team didn't rebound very well when Peja was here (i.e. before KT was rebounding and before Artest arrived), and since Peja and Skinner are still "in the numbers" it skews the on-court/off-court numbers of the remaining personnel to look like they're all positive. But really they're just better than they were when Peja was here. So the on-court/off-court stat isn't very useful.

However, the numbers I'm using are different numbers. They're strictly on-court numbers. As in, how are the Kings rebounding when X player is in the game regardless of who else is on the floor. Those numbers are still very much valid.

As for the Pistons, since they haven't had much turnover those numbers are slightly more valid. But also, their bench tends to play more as a unit, and it happens to be a very good rebounding bench (one of the few things they're good at). As a group, they seem to be better rebounders than the starters. So the starter's on court/off court rebounding numbers are negative. This seems logical to me since they're a middling rebounding team even with Ben Wallace in the lineup.
 
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nbrans said:
As you know, with any stat there's a right way and a wrong way to use the stats. I didn't use the stat you're citing (the on court/off court % difference) becuase it's influenced by the changeover that has happened throughout the season. Since the team didn't rebound very well when Peja was here (i.e. before KT was rebounding and before Artest arrived), and since Peja and Skinner are still "in the numbers" it skews the on-court/off-court numbers of the remaining personnel to look like they're all positive. But really they're just better than they were when Peja was here. So the on-court/off-court stat isn't very useful.

However, the numbers I'm using are different numbers. They're strictly on-court numbers. As in, how are the Kings rebounding when X player is in the game regardless of who else is on the floor. Those numbers are still very much valid.

As for the Pistons, since they haven't had much turnover those numbers are slightly more valid. But also, their bench tends to play more as a unit, and it happens to be a very good rebounding bench (one of the few things they're good at). As a group, they seem to be better rebounders than the starters. So the starter's on court/off court rebounding numbers are negative. This seems logical to me since they're a middling rebounding team even with Ben Wallace in the lineup.

nice post:D, SAR is an okay rebounder.

so, what. It wont matter when hes being beat by opposing 4s. Also ive noticed his fouls are up from his career avg, while averaging less min per game. indicative of the fact that hes lost a step ,or maybe the jaw injury took more out of him then perceived.
 
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