Power Balance in MAJOR legal trouble

[kennadog]

No, it's not supporting evidence at all.

I toss it out because there's no scientific evidence for its efficacy. I don't give a rat's *** whether something is Western, or Chinese, or from the Congo, it's hokum until it's supported by scientific evidence. Acupuncture is an expensive placebo.

Well here is one valid western medical study that proves that statement is wrong as regards to back pain treatment.

And I guess Stanford School of Medicine offers fellowships for accupunture training in their anesthesiology program, because it's hokum. http://med.stanford.edu/anesthesia/education/clinical_fellowship.html#acupuncture Same as Columbia University Medical School. http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/anesthesiology/education/fellowship/pain.html

Here's an article on ongoing studies at Duke University on it's use during and after surgery for pain management. https://www.qualitydigest.com/insid...ces-need-painkillers-during-and-after-surgery

And on another topic in this thread, it's interesting that people dismiss "placebo" effects. Many of human beings' illnesses, aches/pains, etc. are related to a person's emotional and/or mental state. Mental stress causes all kinds of illnesses, primarily because it stimulates excess cortisol production. It also can be a partial cause of obesity, especially accumulation of fat around the torso, a major risk for heart attacks. Depression results in physical problems in the body.

If a person believes something is working, it may very well be helping with a physical problem, because the belief can change the mental emotional state of that person. The mind can heal or help many physical ailments.

Western medicine tends to think anything other than Western medicine is inferior. It's just not always true. Many of the drugs used these days are derived from herbal or plant sources that some cultures have used for thousands of years. Digitalis for angina? That's the foxglove that may be growing right in your own or a neighbor's yard (Keep it away from kids and pets, tho. It can be fatal in larger amounts.)

The same way our ancestors learned what foods were safe to eat or could be made safe to eat through some process, is the same trial and error method that allowed our ancestors to discover that certain plant materials seemed to help or resolve some physical ailments.

 

[uolj]

And on another topic in this thread, it's interesting that people dismiss "placebo" effects. Many of human beings' illnesses, aches/pains, etc. are related to a person's emotional and/or mental state. Mental stress causes all kinds of illnesses, primarily because it stimulates excess cortisol production. It also can be a partial cause of obesity, especially accumulation of fat around the torso, a major risk for heart attacks. Depression results in physical problems in the body.

This may all be true, but I don't think people here are dismissing the placebo effects as much as lamenting the fact that companies like power balance charge $60 for a bracelet that could have the same effect if it was 60 cents. The same is true for many of these other alternative treatments that don't have reliable evidence of their efficacy but rely on placebo effect and slick marketing to charge consumers lots of money.

Rather than allowing these treatments to continue simply because it seems like they work, we should be trying to identify how to integrate those aspects that really do help into modern medicine. For example, if fake acupuncture with toothpicks provides the same level of relief as the normal kind, then maybe it is just the relaxing atmosphere and calm interaction with the practitioner that is helping. And if so, why not work to make that type of interaction available to consumers without the gimmicks and the inflated costs?

If a person believes something is working, it may very well be helping with a physical problem, because the belief can change the mental emotional state of that person. The mind can heal or help many physical ailments.

That may be partially true, but from what I've read and heard recently it seems that most of the placebo effect is simply artifacts of the study. And while patients might feel better, they don't actually have different physical outcomes. There was a recent study (article, study) on asthma patients recently that showed this. Basically, the placebo treatments made patients feel as good as the real treatment, but the real treatment had a significantly larger effect on lung function. This is important because even if a patient feels better thanks to a treatment that really only provides a placebo effect, if they have an actual physical issue then it won't be helped and they might avoid a treatment that works on both.

Perhaps for some things like chronic pain this would be ok, but for other ailments with distinct physical components it would be a bad thing.

Western medicine tends to think anything other than Western medicine is inferior. It's just not always true. Many of the drugs used these days are derived from herbal or plant sources that some cultures have used for thousands of years. Digitalis for angina? That's the foxglove that may be growing right in your own or a neighbor's yard (Keep it away from kids and pets, tho. It can be fatal in larger amounts.)

The same way our ancestors learned what foods were safe to eat or could be made safe to eat through some process, is the same trial and error method that allowed our ancestors to discover that certain plant materials seemed to help or resolve some physical ailments.

I think the real important thing is to be aware of how easily it is for us humans to be fooled by placebo effects, confirmation bias, and the like, and focus on proper research and evidence when determining what works and what doesn't. If there is a bias against non-Western medicine, then it should be avoided insofar as giving plausible remedies from other cultures proper study. But I think that a lot of this "bias" is simply a reaction to the widespread use of treatments that lack evidence to support their efficacy and in many cases have quite a bit of evidence to refute it.

 

[uolj]

Well here is one valid western medical study that proves that statement is wrong as regards to back pain treatment.

Here's an article on ongoing studies at Duke University on it's use during and after surgery for pain management. https://www.qualitydigest.com/insid...ces-need-painkillers-during-and-after-surgery

By the way, did you forget to link the back pain article? The study from Duke doesn't look like it tests acupuncture's efficacy versus a placebo. The placebo effect could just as easily be the reason for the difference they noticed. This is important information, but by tying it to acupuncture rather than what likely is really helping they are doing a disservice to the patient and to the study of medicine.

In other words, it's not about a crusade against acupuncture, holographic bracelets, eastern medicine or anything else, it's about finding the tools that actually do work so people can be helped rather than swindled.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I can't speak for him, but I'm not sure Vlade was dismissing its effects for pain treatment. It stands to reason that poking needles into pressure points could alleviate the perception of pain in the body. But when they start claiming that it will clear your sinuses and cure your asthma, those are some pretty big claims that are much harder to validate. And there are people who go even further than that saying it will release toxins that would cause cancer or other illnesses that a person may never have been at risk for.

 

[kennadog]

I can't speak for him, but I'm not sure Vlade was dismissing its effects for pain treatment. It stands to reason that poking needles into pressure points could alleviate the perception of pain in the body. But when they start claiming that it will clear your sinuses and cure your asthma, those are some pretty big claims that are much harder to validate. And there are people who go even further than that saying it will release toxins that would cause cancer or other illnesses that a person may never have been at risk for.

Well I would agree with that. There are claims for acupuncture and many other treatments that have not been subjected to rigorous scientific testing.

If you read some medication inserts, I've been shocked by how little testing has actually been done. Some have a tiny number of participants and some are tested for a very short period of time, with no study on long term effects on health. So you can hardly just accept everything touted and used in Western medicine either, "approved" or not.

I had a cousin who suffered constant urinary tract infections. She went and had acupunture treatments for it and went two years without an infection. Placebo or a result of the treatments? Or just a problem of correlation/causation issu?

She is an extremely intelligent person with her PhD in psychology. But she is also open-minded about non-Western medical treatments. However, that doesn't mean she ignores Western medical treatments.

 

[Bricklayer]

I had a cousin who suffered constant urinary tract infections. She went and had acupunture treatments for it and went two years without an infection. Placebo or a result of the treatments? Or just a problem of correlation/causation issu?

Almost certianly the latter. There is no magic in the real world.

And as an aside, just to throw another wrench into things, in 2001 a famous study challenged the effectiveness of placebos at all, in fact going back to the 1955 study and using its own data. But its become such a universal part of pop culture that its kind of like the Loch Ness monster photographer admitting he faked the photo on his deathbed, or the guys who admitted they made crop circles by strapping boards to their feet back in the 90s. It has a life of its own and mere studies and confessions aren't enough to debunk things at that point.

 

[Telemachus]

I can't speak for him, but I'm not sure Vlade was dismissing its effects for pain treatment. It stands to reason that poking needles into pressure points could alleviate the perception of pain in the body. But when they start claiming that it will clear your sinuses and cure your asthma, those are some pretty big claims that are much harder to validate. And there are people who go even further than that saying it will release toxins that would cause cancer or other illnesses that a person may never have been at risk for.

When you refer to something as "hokum", most would conclude that you don't think it has ANY value whatsoever. That may not be what Vlade meant, but if not, then he should be clearer in his statements.

 

[Vlade4GM]

When you refer to something as "hokum", most would conclude that you don't think it has ANY value whatsoever. That may not be what Vlade meant, but if not, then he should be clearer in his statements.

No, it's what I meant, beyond the value of a placebo of course.

 

[Livinthedream]

The only issue I have with it all is that if someone doesn't believe in something, like accupuncture, then why does it bother them so much that there are those that do? The effectiveness of your FDA approved drug may very well work so much better if you believe in it, just as "hokum" medicine will work better for those that deeply believe in it. The mind is a powerful thing. Attitude towards treatment plays a huge role in how well you respond to the treatment. I don't see the placebo effect as anything negative at all, rather affirmation of the power of the mind.

 

[uolj]

The only issue I have with it all is that if someone doesn't believe in something, like accupuncture, then why does it bother them so much that there are those that do? The effectiveness of your FDA approved drug may very well work so much better if you believe in it, just as "hokum" medicine will work better for those that deeply believe in it. The mind is a powerful thing. Attitude towards treatment plays a huge role in how well you respond to the treatment. I don't see the placebo effect as anything negative at all, rather affirmation of the power of the mind.

First, I would point out that it doesn't bother me that much. Heck, my wife got acupuncture not too long ago and I didn't divorce her over it. But I there are two main reasons why it's worth bringing up:

The first problem is that it's a ripoff. People are spending large amounts of money for treatments that are no more effective than a placebo treatment. Now, if people knowingly want to "waste" their money, that's fine, but I think it's important that they know that what they're paying for isn't actually any better than another cheaper treatment might be (and I'm not necessarily referring to pills or western medicine or whatever either). I think many people don't know that. Nobody wants to be ripped off, and exposing the reality of many of these alternative treatments is a way to help prevent that.

The second problem is that it diverts energy, money, attention and whatever other resources away from things that do actually work. Instead of spending research dollars trying to show that acupuncture helps, why not spend that money trying to figure out why fake acupuncture works just as well and incorporate the things that are really making the difference into standard medical practice?