Potential, potential, potential!
- Thread starter treewoman
- Start date
kingsfan101
Starter
Certainly. However, giving MLE to middling vets year after year is a sure shot guarantee for continued suckiness.
+1. At the time, I didn't appreciate Duane, and when Officer Polynice arrived in town, I rushed to get his autograph and let him know how much we fans appreciated his arrival. But, in retrospect, 55% shooting, with 8 points, 7 rebounds and 3 blocks in 28 minutes sounds more than acceptable ('91-'92 average), and can you imagine SAR, KT or Mikki ever making 9 blocks in a game? His franchise record of 215 blocks in a season has never been in danger. I'd love to see Justin break it, because our other bigs combined don't make that many in a season. In fact, the last time the entire franchise hit the 300-block mark, we had Ostertag on the roster. And that's a sad thing.
Yeah, Causwell wasn't so bad!
Should have clarified. Hopefully, multiple first round picks.
Even protected picks are fine. Our rebuilding is going to be a long term project, and patience is a virtue we shall all need to develop (if we haven't already).
Yeah, I understood that. I just don't dare hope for that, considering what we have to offer in trade. As starved as the franchise has been for draft picks over the last several years, I'm prepared to settle for one in each round.
kingsfan101
Starter
I too realize that. In dark times though, hope is the only thing we have.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Did you actually read me say that I thought we should try to build our team using the MLE? Are you hallucinating? If so, I've got a pill for you.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
OK, OK, I stand corrected. He was very athletic yet had limited intelligence and hands smaller than mine.
bloom
Starter
Ra-Ra-Sis-Boom-Bah
I see the light at the end of the tunnel. The thing that excites me the most about this team is the young players. I don’t care if we win only 10 games this year, as long as I can see some basketball excitement and fun. I want the young guys to jell, I want them to learn the meaning of teamwork (passing the ball to one another and playing together), and I can see it happening. They can take this year and use it as a learning experience, I don’t care, as long as they learn and grow together and have some fun (even if they don’t win).
I want Justin Williams back on the court. I’m excited to see Spencer Hawes play. Maybe, Douby isn’t a point guard, but hey, I want him to shoot the lights out and realize that there are other players that can shoot (pass). And Hopefully Cisco can put together another game.
I loved Rick, and I wish he was here (didn’t get why they didn’t give him another contract)..but I can’t change what happened. We have a new coach and I like him. Hopefully the team doesn’t turn on him (especially if they keep losing).
I hope at the home opener, at the second half, the fans scream their hearts out (from the beginning till the end). Wishful thinking, I know.
I see the light at the end of the tunnel. The thing that excites me the most about this team is the young players. I don’t care if we win only 10 games this year, as long as I can see some basketball excitement and fun. I want the young guys to jell, I want them to learn the meaning of teamwork (passing the ball to one another and playing together), and I can see it happening. They can take this year and use it as a learning experience, I don’t care, as long as they learn and grow together and have some fun (even if they don’t win).
I want Justin Williams back on the court. I’m excited to see Spencer Hawes play. Maybe, Douby isn’t a point guard, but hey, I want him to shoot the lights out and realize that there are other players that can shoot (pass). And Hopefully Cisco can put together another game.
I loved Rick, and I wish he was here (didn’t get why they didn’t give him another contract)..but I can’t change what happened. We have a new coach and I like him. Hopefully the team doesn’t turn on him (especially if they keep losing).
I hope at the home opener, at the second half, the fans scream their hearts out (from the beginning till the end). Wishful thinking, I know.
And, you know, to take an optimistic look at Douby, he could be the next Cuttino Mobley. That happens to be something that our roster totally doesn't need, but some other teams might like him a lot. We can always develop him for trade value.
kingsfan101
Starter
Well, won't mind the pill. However, the comments about the MLE were not directed at you, but the general direction the management has been forcing the team in. While draft might not lead us to the promised land, it is the only hope.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Not true, IMO.
This team, when it actually got good, hit it lucky with a shy guy from Europe who took expert seducing to get him to come to the Kings. This pick was booed. Petrie flew to Europe a few times and chatted with Peja and his family. The turning point in the seduction may have occurred when Peja had an injury and the Kings brought him to Sacramento for rehab.
Then the guy developed and got REAL good. The negative people call that luck and the optimistic people think that Petrie made a great choice and knew what he was getting - a pure shooter just like him.
Then we took our star and traded him for damaged goods. The negative people call it luck that Richmond had his last great years with the Kings and although Webber was a pouter, he was great for the team and fit in real good with .....
Bingo!
a great free agent acquisition named Vlade Divac. Was that luck? Maybe a little but I suspect Vlade wanted to come back to California and this didn't look like the worst place in the world. His wife stayed in LA and Vlade didn't fit in with the Carolinians. Too much of a cultural difference and besides, maybe he wanted to be near his wife. Being with a fellow countryman had to look good also.
I think Vlade was the single most important move of this modern franchise. He made Sacramento a legitimate place to play ball. We owe him a lot.
Then finally, the draft pick of a pot smoking, trouble making, hostile and maybe bigoted hick named Jason Williams. REAL RISKY and if the trade were pulled off now, would have been greeted with derision by those who know all on this board.
I probably have gotten things out of order for those who want to criticize this but I am just trying to make a point that there are many ways to develop a team.
Suddenly, bam! we were on ESPN every night. From then on, Sacramento did not look like a hell hole to free agents. It looked like fun.
Oh, wait, one more thing. Petrie who once was a genius and now has evolved into an idiot had a good friend and he hired him as a coach.
Two draft picks were part of this transformation and both were, at the least, tremendously risky. Were the draft picks the primary key to the transformation - maybe a little but the acquisition of Vlade and Chris was key.
A few other changes occurred but basically all the parts were in place.
the NBA version of Camelot ended with a ruined knee. Petrie was in a horrible position - an injured power forward or a few warm bodies in trade? Unfortunately in an attempt to make the best of a bad situation, we ended up with three power forwards (was that it?), none half the man that a healthy C-Webb was but ...... was it better than keeping an injured C-Webb? In retrospect I'm not very sure but I think it looked OK at he time. It was an attempt to make the best of a very bad situation and we still are feeling after shocks of that trade.
Would we be whining and kvetching if C-Webb hadn't had that knee injury and was still here?
At about the time of C-Webb's injury, I think the Maloofs became less willing to spend money and made the biggest employee relationship blunder of the decade and got desperate. They openly pursued Phil Jackson while already having a great coach in their employ (not that most of us understood this except in retrospect). This created a divide never to be bridged.
Can Petrie do this again? Assuming he has not really lost all of his intelligence and is NOT an idiot, I say maybe but unlikely. It depends on one thing.
Now, we might look at the present situation and see if there are similarities. Not many although I think Theus will turn out to be a great find and be here much longer than the gloom and doomers think. Martin is the Peja. In a small way, Artest is the trade of one star for another but that is a weak comparison as he is no C-Webb unless he keeps his nose clean - no pun intended.
Now we need to clear cap space and get the big free agent. This is the one item where the paths between these two narratives part company. This will take a few years, patience, and a pile of cash. In the history of this franchise dating back to Luckenbill, IMpatience has been the Kings' downfall.
We need patience and need to wait for the right deal to come down the road. Panic moves end in disaster IMO.
If you have made it this far in this narrative, you have patience.
Last edited:
Or a time machine, and the ability to mess up Petrie's signing of SAR and Moore to $12M/yr worth of contracts that will run to 2010.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Doesn't KT's contract run out at the same time? Must be an accident, huh?
Almost everybody's contract runs out by then. We'll still have Martin and a year of Salmons left, and Hawes if we pick up the option. Now, barring some highly improbable trade miracle, we have to wait until 2011 for the team to be blown up. The only disagreement is about whether that was diabolically clever, or pointless and unnecessary.
kingsfan101
Starter
Thanks for the recap. That was the team that pulled in guys like myself, who had never followed Basketball or NBA before as fans.
Regarding the plan, I personally am not a fan of huge cap space to sign a franchise level player.
As I have stated a few times before, franchise level players rarely become free agents. Even if they do, they, and their teams, shall always want S&T. Bad teams with cap space usually end up overpaying for a middling FA, often on the downhill.
There are of course exceptions. The wiz offer to Arenas felt rich at that time, but he elevated his level of play to make it look like a bargain. Ditto for Nash. Usually however, it is extremely unlikely to get a franchise level player via free agency.
Some amount of cap space shall be good. It can allow a team to add decent vets (like Vlade) above the MLE to guide the kids, and encourage elite players looking for a trade to come to Sac. It can also be used to absorb salary allowing a straight up trade for a player.
I personally hope that we don't let all our contracts run their course over three years, and wait for cap space to sign some FAs. Not only will that increase the time for rebuild, it shall probably not be as good as using the expirings to get some good players.
That's a concern of mine, too. The superstars of the 2010 FA market include Ben Wallace, Ray Allen, Shaq, TMac, Steve Nash, Larry Hughes, ZI, Hedo Turkoglu, Raja Bell, Tim Duncan, Marcus Camby... a booming market for anyone who wants to make jumbo-sized walkers. Only a few good players will not yet be far into their 30s: Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Amare Stoudemire, Dwayne Wade and Andrew Bynum. But any or all of those who go uninjured over the next few years are likely to sign extensions. One or two may be left, but other teams may be able to offer max too, so to beat out the competition we need to be able to point to what a great place Sac is to play. And that's not such an easy sell anymore.
Pretty sure Bosh is a FA in 2010, not like the Raps have done a great job building around him. He, Amare, and Wade all have extensions until then anyway so they might not sign another one. Especially if Nash declines and the Suns fall off, the Heat become the all old man team, and the Raps continue to fail to build around Bosh. Heck Okafor could be a FA next year I think. I'd take him.
Kingzrool
Starter
Sounds good in print but two years is a long time in the NBA. There is a whole list of players that could be on that level then that are not now. It is limiting to only consider the major players of last season when considering three seasons down the line.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You do not sign superstars via free agency if you are the Sacramento Kings. Just not going to happen.
You can sign a star ala a Peja or Rashard Lewis, but you can see how much you have to overpay to even do that. But we aren't going to get somebody else's superstar via free agency. The only remote possibility of that is a freak (and so far as I can recall virtually unprecedented) event like the Nash signing, where a guy who has always just been good suddenly takes another step. That happens almost never, and the chances of a) it happening again; and b) happening for your team; c) even if you could win a bidding war are small enoguh that its a very foolish thing to count on.
That leaves trades, where we have few assets that anybody wants.
And THE DRAFT. Which is the same place the Spurs got Duncan, the Mavs got Dirk, the Rockets got Yao, the Cavs got LeBron, Portland was just rebuilt etc. etc. (also essentially how the Celts got Ray Allen, and how we got Mitch Richmond -- a high pick is a very versatile extraordinarily valuable thing). The draft may not be 100%, but its track record is 100x better than any other route, and best of all, it doesn't depend on anybody else. You don't need the FA to choose you, or the other team to want your garbage in trade. The pick is yours within no more than 3 spots of where you ended up recordwise.
You can sign a star ala a Peja or Rashard Lewis, but you can see how much you have to overpay to even do that. But we aren't going to get somebody else's superstar via free agency. The only remote possibility of that is a freak (and so far as I can recall virtually unprecedented) event like the Nash signing, where a guy who has always just been good suddenly takes another step. That happens almost never, and the chances of a) it happening again; and b) happening for your team; c) even if you could win a bidding war are small enoguh that its a very foolish thing to count on.
That leaves trades, where we have few assets that anybody wants.
And THE DRAFT. Which is the same place the Spurs got Duncan, the Mavs got Dirk, the Rockets got Yao, the Cavs got LeBron, Portland was just rebuilt etc. etc. (also essentially how the Celts got Ray Allen, and how we got Mitch Richmond -- a high pick is a very versatile extraordinarily valuable thing). The draft may not be 100%, but its track record is 100x better than any other route, and best of all, it doesn't depend on anybody else. You don't need the FA to choose you, or the other team to want your garbage in trade. The pick is yours within no more than 3 spots of where you ended up recordwise.
Bosh and Amare both have player options in 2010, and are both currently expected to opt out of them. But considering how disappointing the FA markets have turned out to be for the last few years, I'm not holding my breath.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Too bad we all wasted so much on having opinions when all we had to do is wait for the facts.
If we follow everything Brick opines as fact, we don't have a chance, We have Martin, Artest, Bibby, Miller, Hawes, Salmons, Watkins, Cisco, and Williams - a team that will never be bad enough to get a low enough draft pick to improve us.
We don't suck enough to get good.
If we follow everything Brick opines as fact, we don't have a chance, We have Martin, Artest, Bibby, Miller, Hawes, Salmons, Watkins, Cisco, and Williams - a team that will never be bad enough to get a low enough draft pick to improve us.
We don't suck enough to get good.
GoGoGadget
All-Star
If your sole contribution to the board is going to be to follow Bricklayer around and jump on everything he says and/or his philosophy regarding the team, could you please just start limiting the body of your posts to: "Ya know, the usual"?
That way, I don't have to waste my time reading more than four words to get the gist of your posts.
Danke.
kingsfan101
Starter
Unless things change quickly (to a certain extent they shall, with Ron's return. Given how bad things have been, it shall take much more than that), we might suck enough this year itself. Of course, we have to be lucky not only with the ping pong balls, but also with the pick.
Moreover, that's the point Brick has been making for a while now. If we don't suck enough, we should trade some players who have value for future assets. This has the potential to increase chances in draft, get younger players with potential and shall also give more time for the kids; all of which shall be useful for the future.
As for turning the franchise around, a franchise level player can help turn things around very quickly. If we end up with a potential superstar in the draft, other vets and even senior coaches (in case Reggie falls short of expectations) shall suddenly start seeing Sac as an attractive destination (McGrady choosing Houston after Yao, Shaq liking Miami with Wade, Kobe liking Chicago with Deng, KG accepting to go to Boston after they also picked RA, there are tons of such examples). If we do end up with a potential superstar next year, our bunch of expirings in 2010, one of the young guys, and draft pick(s) shall be adequate to land us another excellent player, potentially, even a superstar.
Of course, luck shall be a factor at every step.
i believe that contention goes way back, before you were a member. it is always a good idea to let the people involved solve their problems on their own.
GoGoGadget
All-Star
I agree.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Nobody forces anyone to read anything. It's your option. In this case, Brick followed me and essentially tried to negate much of what I wrote. This bothers me as I put a lot of thought into that note. I felt like I was chopped off at the knees without an acknowledgment of my offerings.
I doubt highly that Brick cares if I write in support of him or in disagreement. He has never said anything one way or the other. If he does pay attention to what I write, he, unlike you, has undoubtedly noticed that I support him when I agree and I don't support him when I disagree - my own power of independent thought. This has been the way it has been long before you appeared on the scene.
I value Brick's comments very much because I think he has the most basketball knowledge on this board. I just do not agree with his "philosophy" as you call it. I have a "philosophy" of my own and unless someone tells me otherwise, I have the right to express it.
I am sorry I wrote such a long note previously. It must have been energy sapping to try to read and understand. Sometimes a point can only be made by showing how the past can show how the future might play out.
Concerning the Kings, I have never seen them do well with a high draft pick except for the draft of McCray which became Richmond. McCray himself didn't exactly become a superstar. I have seen the Kings' drafts fail miserably with #1 pick Pervis. I HAVE definitely seen free agency work just fine with the signing of Vlade and it appears that Petrie is preparing for a few years down the road. It only takes one superstar to want to come here and we are back in contention. If this superstar is in his mid to late 20's, we are in business for many years. Believe me, and I think Brick will agree with me, one superstar with a decent supporting cast is far more likely to create a successful team than 8 reasonably great players. The superstar is usually a necessity.
I disagree that people don't want to come here. Many ex-Kings have retired here and besides, most will simply follow the money anyway.
These are just opinions of mine of course and I will try as hard as I can to differentiate what I consider opinions and what are facts.
Last edited:
GoGoGadget
All-Star
My intent was never to suggest that you (or anyone else) shouldn't be encouraged to express their opinion.
It was merely a response to the somewhat petty tone in several of your recent posts. It can be tiresome to read, and it can distract not only from the conversation in the rest of the thread but also from your original intent/opinion. Perhaps no one else shares this feeling, perhaps no one else has even noticed, but that was my response and it would have been the same for a similar disagreement between any other posters.
I do apologize for the somewhat bitchy tone in my post, however. I didn't mean it to be quite so harsh.
Oh, come on. I know that you don't think Petrie's as bad a picker as the old front office was. If Petrie has the skill to not blow it, it could only be blown by bad luck. And a very specialized version of "old Indian burial grounds" (which only affects top 10 lottery picks) doesn't seem like the strongest possible basis for decision making.
I've done my share of criticizing Petrie, but I don't think he does a terrible job with draft picks. He has little experience with high ones, but what's the worst thing he could do, pick Mayo over Rose? I'm sure we'd be fine with the #1 pick. More than fine. Ecstatic.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I don't follow college basketball but I presume they are coming out this year, is that right?
I have a lot of faith in Petrie and always have. The Pervis year was a hideous year for the draft as Pervis was probably one of the top two or three guys available. The draft went Pervis, Danny Ferry, Sean Elliot, Glen Rice, JR Reid, etc. Not one guy adequate to build a franchise around.
Not even Petrie could have picked a great player out of that disaster. My main point is that the draft can be a bit of a crap shoot as there just might not be a great player available.
I'd say that was more of a function of us having the bad luck to be crappy during a particularly crappy draft year; I don't think that anybody who had a top-ten draft pick in 1995, 1996, 1998, or 2003-05 would regard those as a "crap shoot." Obviously just having high draft picks isn't enough, but if you can somehow finagle having them in a good draft, that's a goal worth shooting for.
I mean, I more or less get where you're coming from, but I think it's overly simplistic to say that we shouldn't set a goal of stockpiling draft picks because it didn't work out the last time. Last time we had four first rounders, the pickings were mighty slim... Imagine if we had #'s 7, 14, 18 and 23 in 2003? And, from what I've heard, some people are projecting this draft to be one of the most talented of this decade... We're not talking about wishful thinking, here; we're talking about a lot of prospects that a lot of high-paid so-called experts think are going to turn out great... I don't recall anybody saying that about anybody in the '90 draft, outside of Coleman, Payton and Jackson.
I mean, I more or less get where you're coming from, but I think it's overly simplistic to say that we shouldn't set a goal of stockpiling draft picks because it didn't work out the last time. Last time we had four first rounders, the pickings were mighty slim... Imagine if we had #'s 7, 14, 18 and 23 in 2003? And, from what I've heard, some people are projecting this draft to be one of the most talented of this decade... We're not talking about wishful thinking, here; we're talking about a lot of prospects that a lot of high-paid so-called experts think are going to turn out great... I don't recall anybody saying that about anybody in the '90 draft, outside of Coleman, Payton and Jackson.
Similar threads
- Sacramento Kings On SI
- Personnel moves
