Yeah, I'd be 100% in on Lonzo. Buy-low project, we know he's very good when he plays, excellent defender and distributor. And he doesn't block Carter or Keon since he can play either guard spot and even some SF at times
Potential Free Agent/Trade/Sign Tracker, '25-'26 Season
- Thread starter twslam07
- Start date
Yeah, I'd be 100% in on Lonzo. Buy-low project, we know he's very good when he plays, excellent defender and distributor. And he doesn't block Carter or Keon since he can play either guard spot and even some SF at times
Evident Keon just didn't play enough. Just mind-boggling how a bad defensive team never really find a way to not only get its best defender, but someone who is all defense caliber on the floor for 30+ minutes night in and night out
One interesting development is that pretty much any unit outside of the starters ended up playing good defense. That was just adding a LaRavia and Carter to the rotation and playing more Keon. But the key became not overloading the lineup with offensive only guys and building a proper offensive hierarchy
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
On the one hand, he was terrible on the Suns last year.
On the other hand, everybody was terrible on the Suns last year.
I’d say Keegan is a better rim protector than Gordon, but Gordon is much bigger and stronger. Keegan as a forward has elite rim protection, and if the Kings can get another forward to provide rim protection that will be sufficient with having Domas as the C.
We need length with Domas, or else we will get exposed again and again, no matter how good everyone else can defend.
We need someone who provides length, is agile, and can stretch the court, if you need Domas to work out.
I should have been more thorough, I’d equate Keon and Carter at least on par or better than Houston’s backcourt. I believe FVV is good on D…..I thought Green was also solid, not great, but solid. Could be wrong.
And Keegan is similar at the rim to Jabari. Or you can compare Keegan to Brooks which I think Keegan is better but both are very good. I personally think Amen is better than all of the players. Unique talent defensively.
We need a player who can replicate what he does or at least approaches that skill set.
notoriousBEN3
Bench
Domas is a hard player to build around, but he’s so good at being a facilitator and doing the little things that I absolutely believe we could be a legit team with him as one of the cornerstones.
Truly unselfish players that can be impactful without strictly being big scorers are always a good addition to a team. I’m not opposed to trading him, but I don’t think he’s some toxic player that’s impossible to build around.
It will be interesting to see how Perry executes the off season. There are a lot of different directions he can go in. If he can get a good haul for Domas then maybe he should be traded. But if he can somehow acquire the length and complimentary players we’ve all known the team has needed for years, maybe it’s not bad to hold on to Domas.
Let’s see what you got Perry.
Truly unselfish players that can be impactful without strictly being big scorers are always a good addition to a team. I’m not opposed to trading him, but I don’t think he’s some toxic player that’s impossible to build around.
It will be interesting to see how Perry executes the off season. There are a lot of different directions he can go in. If he can get a good haul for Domas then maybe he should be traded. But if he can somehow acquire the length and complimentary players we’ve all known the team has needed for years, maybe it’s not bad to hold on to Domas.
Let’s see what you got Perry.
I agree with you. Ideally a guy like Evan Mobley, Scottie Barnes or JJJ. I don’t think a guy like Myles Turner is the best fit because of lack of PnR defense and switchability.
Clock is already ticking on Scott Perry. He needs to deliver a roster of players who fit. More length as he’s already said as much. He’s done his homework. For once, I’d like to see a team on the floor, high performing defensive players with a couple of offensive hubs, and commit to playing defense first. The try to outscore you approach is getting this franchise nowhere.
I remember watching Keon and Carter and Keegan and LaRavia on the floor creating havoc in a few games. Was fun to watch.
I remember watching Keon and Carter and Keegan and LaRavia on the floor creating havoc in a few games. Was fun to watch.
QWERTYLICIOUS
Starter
The dude literally got to Sacramento less than 1.5 months ago...I think we owe him some time before throwing the "Clock is already ticking" gibberish at him.
Yes, because the owner is so patient.
Joshyjosh31
Starter
“Big 3”
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
They are both 6’8, Keegan with 6’11 wingspan and Gordon with 7 feet. Both in the 225-235 weight range.
Yes measurements are similar. I just meant in terms of rim protection specifically, Keegan is much better than Gordon.
twslam07
All-Star
I disagree that Turner is the perfect player next to him simply because Turner is a C and not best when defending PFs (Sabonis needs to defend the C spot). In fact, a lot of your list are Cs that would be out of place being asked to guard PFs every night. The list of players that would be good fits at PF next to Sabonis would be guys like Jaren Jackson Jr, Evan Mobley, Chet Holmgren, Victor Wembanyama, OG Anunoby, Aaron Gordon, Tari Eason, Jabari Smith Jr., Jalen Johnson, PJ Washington, Dorian Finney-Smith, Herb Jones, Trey Murphy, Jaden McDaniels, etc. All of those guys have (at least) good size & length, can defend the PF position at a good level, is a versatile defender, can help with rim protection, and can space the floor.
As for you rim protection point, I'm not saying rim protection is not important, but if you surround Sabonis with a couple of long, athletic forwards who can help protect the rim, the rim protection component can be passable and if you combine that with a defensive roster that is strong in other areas on that side of the ball (defections, turning the other team over, preventing transition defense, preventing penetration, closing out effectively, etc.), you can put together a solid defense. Putting Murray and Washington next to Sabonis allows that rim protection component to at least be passable IMO considering their size, length, athleticism, and the rim protection skills they have shown to date. For instance last year, Murray averaged 1.0 BLKs per 36 min last year and Washington averaged 1.2 BLKs per 36 min. That's really all you can ask for without lucking into drafting a unicorn (like Jaren Jackson Jr) or emptying the warchest to try and trade for one.
Let's also put it this way...of the top 10 defenses this year, 6 of those defenses were not top 10 in blocks per game. And to take that further, 2 of those 6 defenses were not in the top 15 and and another 2 of those 6 defenses were not even in the top 25. In fact, the team with the fewest blocks per game (Miami) was the 9th best defense this year.
Now blocks per game aren't the only form of rim protection. You can obviously deter shots without putting your hand physically on the ball. Looking across the past 2 years of data and filtering to only look at defended shots that came from closer than 6ft, below is their opponent's defensive field goal % and the delta from their opponent's typical field goal % for each of those 3 guys...
Opponents 0-6ft FG% when defended by Murray = 56.2% (6.5% lower than their opponent's typical FG% from 0-6ft)
Opponents 0-6ft FG% when defended by Washington = 57.6% (5.9% lower than their opponent's typical FG% from 0-6ft)
Opponents 0-6ft FG% when defended by Sabonis = 59.6% (4.3% lower than their opponent's typical FG% from 0-6ft)
So technically, all 3 of those guys hold their defenders to a lower 0-6ft FG% than they usually shoot, and Murray and Washington are better than Sabonis at doing that (hence they can help him with the rim protection component of the defense).
I think your recollection on the Indiana situation is a bit murky. Let's go through it...
2017-18
A 21 year old Sabonis (entering his sophomore season) and 25 year old Victor Oladipo were traded to Indiana.
Oladipo breaks out and averages 23/5/4 with a .577 TS% and leads his team to a 5th seed with a 48-34 record. He makes the all star team, 3rd team all nba, 1st team all defense, wins most improved player, and is 15th in MVP voting. Certainly an intriguing two way star on the rise.
Sabonis, on the other hand, is entering his sophomore season and averages 12/8/2 with a .567 TS% (averaging 24.5 mpg) coming off the bench. Hardly a core piece at this point in his career, but a solid contributor.
2018-19
A 26 year old Oladipo is just now entering his prime and coming off of his breakout season. His numbers fell off a fair amount as he averaged 19/5/6 with a .519 TS%. Definitely not the star in the making that some were hoping for, but if that wasn't depressing enough, Oladipo ruptured his quadriceps tendon in January of 2019 and would be out the rest of the season (and potentially the entire 2019-20 season).
Despite the Oladipo regression and injury, the progression from the 22 year old Turner (5th in DPOY voting that year) and the 22 year old Sabonis (runner up in 6MOY voting this year) allowed them to still grab the 5th seed with a 48-34 record (although, they did not have their lead cog/star for the playoffs to help them advance).
As I alluded to, 22 year old Sabonis was still a bench player (although now a very good bench player due to the 6MOY voting). He averaged 14/9/3 with a .590 TS% (averaging 24.8 MPG). He's still not the player he is today.
2019-20
A 27 year old Oladipo is out with his serious injury for almost the entire year (the guy that is supposed to be "the guy"), but 23 year old Turner and 23 year old Sabonis continue to progress (in fact, this is the year Sabonis makes his first all star team by averaging 18/12/5 with a .586 TS% logging 35 MPG). Not to mention, Malcolm Brogdon and TJ Warren are added to the roster which are solid players to fit around Sabonis, Turner, and Oladipo (if he can come back healthy and return to his 2017-18 form).
The team ends up finishing 4th in the standings with a 45-28 roster (which technically was a 50 win pace if it wasn't for the shortened season) despite not having a true #1 star next to Sabonis. Oladipo is able to come back from his serious injury towards the end of his season, but isn't the same caliber player he looked like during his 2017-18 season.
2020-21
The next season rolls around and it's becoming clearer and clearer that Oladipo won't be able to return to form. The Pacers move on from him and his large contract for LeVert and some low value picks.
The rest of the season doesn't go too well as guys like Turner, Brogdon, Warren, etc. miss a significant amount of time leading to them finishing 9th with a 34-38 record.
2021-22
Next season rolls around and it's clear the Pacers are looking to rebuild/reset now that they moved on from the guy they thought would be their #1 guy. They make the "famous" trade of moving Sabonis for Haliburton and end the season with the 13th seed and a 25-57 record.
So as you can see, your comments around Sabonis' time in Indiana are misleading at best. When Oladipo was at his best, Sabonis was a 21 year old sophomore coming off the bench. When Sabonis grew his game and made his first all star team, Oladipo was out for almost the entire year and no longer the same player when he came back.
I bet the conversation would be very different if a Brogdon, 2017-18 version of Oladipo, Warren, Sabonis, & Turner were able to play together during that 2019-20 season. Again, that team was a 4th seed that year despite not having a true star/#1 guy on the roster for basically the entire year.
twslam07
All-Star
Jalen Green is anything but solid defensively. His metrics on that end are pretty miserable and he doesn’t pass the eye test for me either.
So the point still stands, HOU may need a defender like Amen (1st team all defense) to make up for Green and Sengun, but if we have 4 good defenders around Sabonis, I think the defense can definitely be good enough to be a serious playoff team.
Hell…HOU was 5th in defense this year despite those two starting for them. You’re telling me 4 good defenders (even if none of them are Amen level) around Sabonis can’t be at least 10th? I don’t believe it.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
He's the opposite of toxic,... but also probably the most difficult high paid 5 to build around
Great post, thank you.
Any stats as far as how many attempts in the paint the Kings opposition puts up against them? I'd like to see where the Kings rank on offense and defense there.
I feel like opposing teams are constantly getting good looks at the rim or short mid range on us. While Murray and Sabonis might be holding their opponents to less than average shooting percentages in the paint, they're still making shots better than 56% of the time on them. If their opponents are getting a lot more of those looks than the Kings are getting, then the problem is less rim protection and more preventing paint penetration.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And also Keon and especially Devin are the exact archetypes you see on what will now be the last two championship teams. Versatile guards are the it thing now. Caruso, Dort, Wallace, Holiday, Nembhard, Pritchard, White, those are the new 3 and D wing. The Kings might have gotten ahead of the trend with Keon and Devin who would especially fit in on any of the top teams defensively. If the Kings come out of the draft with Alijah Martin they have already possibly built their Celtics style 3 guard rotation.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Bleh, if this is the get then it's not the worst thing but if the Kings offer a long term contract this is going off the rails, it's just a matter of time.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Yeah, but if Perry panic buys like Monte did this is going to be bad. He needs to understand you typically want to develop those needs, not sign/trade for them at a high. That's what floods a teams cap and diminishes assets. And for any team that isn't already knocking on the door it's what keeps you from moving on up.
twslam07
All-Star
Interesting…
He was a target of mine this offseason, but after discussing with CHI fans awhile back, they seemed like they didn’t want to move him/CHI wouldn’t move him.
If that’s not the case and CHI is actually looking to move him, then maybe my trade idea is finally attainable
…———————————
CHI Gets: Terry Rozier & Jaime Jaquez
CHI Gives: Zach Collins & Lonzo Ball
Why for CHI? The Bulls sell off Ball who will be 28 at the start of next season for the 24 year old Jaquez who still has 2 years left on his rookie deal and can be a part of their rebuild/retool.
PG - White / Rozier / Carter
SG - Dosonmu / Huerter / Hardy
SF - Giddey / Jaiquez / Terry
PF - Williams / Buzelis / Phillips
C - Vucevic / Smith
———————————
DAL Gets: Malik Monk
DAL Gives: PJ Washington & Jaden Hardy
Why for DAL? With the Mavs being able to start a frontcourt of Flagg, Davis, & Lively with Marshall & Gafford off the bench, Washington becomes expendable. With Irving rehabbing from his injury, Monk gives them another scorer, ball handler, & playmaker to help carry their offense. Even when Irving is back, Monk can share the floor with him (similar to what he did with Fox) knowing the Mavs still have an elite defensive frontcourt to cover for them.
PG - Irving / Monk / Williams
SG - Thompson / Christie
SF - Flagg / Martin
PF - Davis / Marshall / Prosper
C - Lively / Gafford / Powell
———————————
MIA Gets: DeMar DeRozan & Jaden Hardy
MIA Gives: Terry Rozier & Jaime Jaquez
Why for MIA? The Heat move someone who has fallen out of their rotation/fallen out of favor with Spoelstra and get another go-to scorer & playmaker to help take some pressure off of Herro & Adebayo.
PG - Mitchell
SG - Herro / DeRozan / Hardy / Larsson
SF - Wiggins / Highsmith / Robinson
PF - Ware / Jovic / Anderson / Johnson
C - Adebayo / Love
———————————
SAC Gets: Zach Collins, PJ Washington, & Lonzo Ball
SAC Gives: DeMar DeRozan & Malik Monk
Why for SAC? Washington is a terrific at PF next to Sabonis. He’s big, long, athletic, a good defender, pretty good rim protector, good floor spacer, and can help with a bit of scoring. He’ll also only be 27 at the start of next season so he could be a solid long term-ish player for us. Ball gives us a PG who can help run the offense while also spacing the floor and improving our defense. Collins is a really just a filler to match salaries, but it does open the door to moving Valanciunas for a bench wing/forward or 2nd(s) since I do think Collins could fill that backup C role (and I do think he’s a better defender than Valanciunas).
PG - Ball / Carter
SG - LaVine / Ellis / Davis
SF - Murray
PF - Washington / Jones
C - Sabonis / Valanciunas / Collins
———————————
Insomniacal Fan
Starter
My speculation is that Keon doesn't always follow the defensive scheme. And I'd guess that the defensive scheme makes our perimeter defenders look bad, in order to aggressively defend our soft fluffy middle.
That’s a good one. Get Jake to resign to complete the forward rotation.Interesting…
He was a target of mine this offseason, but after discussing with CHI fans awhile back, they seemed like they didn’t want to move him/CHI wouldn’t move him.
If that’s not the case and CHI is actually looking to move him, then maybe my trade idea is finally attainable
———————————
CHI Gets: Terry Rozier & Jaime Jaquez
CHI Gives: Zach Collins & Lonzo Ball
Why for CHI? The Bulls sell off Ball who will be 28 at the start of next season for the 24 year old Jaquez who still has 2 years left on his rookie deal and can be a part of their rebuild/retool.
PG - White / Rozier / Carter
SG - Dosonmu / Huerter / Hardy
SF - Giddey / Jaiquez / Terry
PF - Williams / Buzelis / Phillips
C - Vucevic / Smith
———————————
DAL Gets: Malik Monk
DAL Gives: PJ Washington & Jaden Hardy
Why for DAL? With the Mavs being able to start a frontcourt of Flagg, Davis, & Lively with Marshall & Gafford off the bench, Washington becomes expendable. With Irving rehabbing from his injury, Monk gives them another scorer, ball handler, & playmaker to help carry their offense. Even when Irving is back, Monk can share the floor with him (similar to what he did with Fox) knowing the Mavs still have an elite defensive frontcourt to cover for them.
PG - Irving / Monk / Williams
SG - Thompson / Christie
SF - Flagg / Martin
PF - Davis / Marshall / Prosper
C - Lively / Gafford / Powell
———————————
MIA Gets: DeMar DeRozan & Jaden Hardy
MIA Gives: Terry Rozier & Jaime Jaquez
Why for MIA? The Heat move someone who has fallen out of their rotation/fallen out of favor with Spoelstra and get another go-to scorer & playmaker to help take some pressure off of Herro & Adebayo.
PG - Mitchell
SG - Herro / DeRozan / Hardy / Larsson
SF - Wiggins / Highsmith / Robinson
PF - Ware / Jovic / Anderson / Johnson
C - Adebayo / Love
———————————
SAC Gets: Zach Collins, PJ Washington, & Lonzo Ball
SAC Gives: DeMar DeRozan & Malik Monk
Why for SAC? Washington is a terrific at PF next to Sabonis. He’s big, long, athletic, a good defender, pretty good rim protector, good floor spacer, and can help with a bit of scoring. He’ll also only be 27 at the start of next season so he could be a solid long term-ish player for us. Ball gives us a PG who can help run the offense while also spacing the floor and improving our defense. Collins is a really just a filler to match salaries, but it does open the door to moving Valanciunas for a bench wing/forward or 2nd(s) since I do think Collins could fill that backup C role (and I do think he’s a better defender than Valanciunas).
PG - Ball / Carter
SG - LaVine / Ellis / Davis
SF - Murray
PF - Washington / Jones
C - Sabonis / Valanciunas / Collins
———————————
twslam07
All-Star
We actually give up the 6th fewest FGAs between 0-6ft but we‘re 17th in terms of opppnent’s 0-6ft FG%. However, we’re 19th in opponent 3PAs and 30th in opponent 3P%.
I think the type of FGA your defense gives up can be a bit more correlated with your defensive scheme. I think we all saw that our team heavily helped when teams got in the paint against us which allowed a lot of good looks from 3 (which is probably why we were dead last in opponents 3P%).
I think the point is that our rim protection is never going to be elite with Sabonis at C, but it would be ideal to add a couple big, long forwards next to him who can help a bit in that department (Murray & Washington). The stats I brought up were a way to show that those two guys are decent at protecting the rim, but if we can’t prevent penetration on a semi regular basis, it’s going to be difficult to build a competent defense that at least gives us a shot at being competitive.
That team still went nowhere and they identified Domas as a reason for that, and traded for Hali. And the present shows that hey were right in their assessment.
Murray has always played next to Sabonis, and our rim protection was never good because we lack length.
This fact always killed us in our most important games. This was always exploited because it is easily exploitable.
Even in the RS we never did well against teams that are naturally long.
No forward is going to give us that length, thats just a fact.
And you are right, that a C who cannot get switched on fours is not a good partner for Sabonis, this only lowers the good partners to the likes of Wemby, Mobley and Chet.
Even if you are thinking that your proposal could work, we will not be a team that gets us deep into the playoffs with that. Not in this west.
This means that Domas, who openly said that he is monitoring what the kings are doing, will demand a trade at the end of the year. With that trade demand, and another team not being able to build a winner around him, he will lose value.
Right now there are enough people believing that you can build a winner around him more easily than i think you can.
At the end of the season the number of persons that think like you will be lower.
How to prevent penetration the easiest?
Having a rim protecting presence down there, and they wont even try as much.
Thats why boston lost, because their inside d presence, Porzingis, was sick and couldnt perform. The rest of the team was full of elite defenders, but thats not enough if you truly want a winner.
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