[Poll] What should Kings do about Karl and Cousins?

[ockingsfan]

The NBA is a players league.

You win with the best players, coaches are expendable.

You don't trade a top 10 player, unless he won't resign and it is the final year of his contract.

I say fire Karl and give vlade his hand picked coach and players another year.

If it is still not working, then and only then, do you consider moving Cuz (in the final year of his contract).

 

[KingsFanSince85]

So far the results are far different.

That's because we have bright basketball minds around these parts.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

The NBA is a players league.

You win with the best players, coaches are expendable.

^^ Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you exhibit A. (regarding my bright basketball minds comment)

 

[kingsboi]

Karl is a goner. Whether the other minority owners have a say in this, who knows. The Cousins trade talks will arise again in the summer, you can bank on it. Keep Cousins for the season and continue to try to make it work, if we see false hope again by next year, time to move on. Vlade has some serious work cut out for him, he needs to establish a culture and that will start with the proper coach.

 

[VF21]

Their sample size is far larger, even with that. I doubt a whole swarm of people are voting multiple times in there. It's not an all star vote or anything. The bias in this poll is far greater. STR appeals to more of the fanbase than in here. I think it's far more representative of the overall fanbase.

You trying to compare the power of that poll with yours really shows the bias here. 2500 vs 50? And you think this one's better? Come on.

I never said I was comparing the power of polls. I said that our views are often quite different than StR and then I voiced my opinion that I think our site offers a better gauge of the fan populace. It's not based on numbers. Quite frankly, it's based on the quality of posts. Purely a personal opinion.

 

[Glenn]

^^ Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you exhibit A. (regarding my bright basketball minds comment)

I read a long time ago about the impact coaches have on a team. There is a small number who have a positive effect and a small number who have a detrimental effect on a team. There is a huge number in the middle that make no difference.

 

[Glenn]

Karl is a goner. Whether the other minority owners have a say in this, who knowsThe Cousins trade talks will arise again in the summer, you can bank on it. Keep Cousins for the season and continue to try to make it work, if we see false hope again by next year, time to move on. Vlade has some serious work cut out for him, he needs to establish a culture and that will start with the proper coach.

Does anyone know who the minority owners are? Richmond and Shaq are minority owners. My guess is that Shaq would be on Boogie's side just because they are both monsters. I also think Mitch would be on Boogie's side as Mitch would wonder what all the fuss was about; look at the numbers Boogie puts out and watch him play defense.

I wonder if the fact that Vlade thinks Boogie is a good kid is factored in. He said it, folks.

Just a thought on a lazy evening.



ps: none of these guesses are influenced by the fact I am on Boogie's side because he plays ball.

 

[kupman]

My write-in vote is "I have no idea idea." Who do we get in return for Cuz? What crazy fool is willing to coach here instead of Karl?

 

[funkykingston]

Does anyone know who the minority owners are? Richmond and Shaq are minority owners. My guess is that Shaq would be on Boogie's side just because they are both monsters. I also think Mitch would be on Boogie's side as Mitch would wonder what all the fuss was about; look at the numbers Boogie puts out and watch him play defense.

I wonder if the fact that Vlade thinks Boogie is a good kid is factored in. He said it, folks.

Just a thought on a lazy evening.



ps: none of these guesses are influenced by the fact I am on Boogie's side because he plays ball.

Shaq has a $1 million stake. I believe Richmond does as well. They are very, very minor minority owners. There are a number of local guys with $1 million stakes.

Mark Mastrov has either the 2nd or 3rd biggest share after Ranadive. I honestly couldn't name all the significant minority owners, let alone the guys with $1 million pieces of the team. Phil Oates comes to mind and I could probably think of others but I have no idea what percentage any of them own.

Burkle & Mastrov as the only two owners would have been much simpler. And very possibly could have meant a better team right now.

 

[Glenn]

Shaq has a $1 million stake. I believe Richmond does as well. They are very, very minor minority owners. There are a number of local guys with $1 million stakes.

Mark Mastrov has either the 2nd or 3rd biggest share after Ranadive. I honestly couldn't name all the significant minority owners, let alone the guys with $1 million pieces of the team. Phil Oates comes to mind and I could probably think of others but I have no idea what percentage any of them own.

Burkle & Mastrov as the only two owners would have been much simpler. And very possibly could have meant a better team right now.

I think you have the amounts correct. I'm just thinking that no matter how little money Mitch and Shaq have into the team, they ARE owners, and they may very well be the ones other owners might listen to. My goodness, if the other owners don't listen to these two, the Kings are worse than a looney bin.

 

[jcwkings]

Again, everything you said is subjective, or at minimum lacks evidence.

Here's a nifty graphic that show that both Russell Westbrook and Demarcus Cousins play BETTER after they get a technical.

Since as Demarcus goes, go the kings, it's quite possible the team sees a bump in productivity after a Cousin's technical. Or not. I don't know.

Objectively, one could find out the team effect. If one wanted.
View attachment 5632

What does this prove? That he scores more after techs? Do those stats take into account layups or open threes for the other team because Demarcus is snapping at the refs or trotting down the floor? Stupid analytics age we live in where every argument turns into numbers. Ive seen practically every Kings game in the Cousins era and NEVER do I remember a time where a Cousins mental breakdown led to good basketball by the Sacramento Kings.

 

[Glenn]

This is getting to me. WHO CARES? Do people honestly think this team will be better if we ship Cousins out? Nobody has made the team better in the 6 years Cousins has been here. Gay hasn't. Gay was supposed to be a stud and made the national team. McLemore hasn't. When was McLemore drafted? Close to the same rank as Cuz I think. What coach made us better?

Cousins is not the whole f***ing team as much as people think he is. The team does not live or die because of him. Must we bark when Grant blows his dog whistle? I am angrier at Karl. Wasn't he the darn near bonafied Hall of Fame coach coming here to turn this team around? I will try very hard to stay out of these discussions because they have gone on for years and I will bet money no one has changed their mind.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Even if I thought Karl COULD still coach in the NBA at this point he lost the team back before the All Star break when the loosing streak ended in every reporter in the biz reporting that he was through. I said at the time I did not necessarily agree with the decision to take him back home, make him comfortable and feed him steak every night until the end of the season when he will be taken to a nice farm upstate, but I get it. Make no mistake all the signs are there that next season there will be a new HC, so even if you are positive Boogie needs to go for the team to succeed you seriously have to wait until a new coach is on board to get their opinion and input. More to the point I am of the belief that the presence of Boogie on the roster is the bait Vlade will need to land a solid coach after all the bad press we have gotten for the past decade or so.

 

[KingMilz]

Losing can be a team effort but when you got players like Rondo and Gay who in the last 2-3 seasons have basically single handily tanked teams (Toronto/Dallas/Boston/Memphis never won a playoff series with Gay) combined with Cousins who is massively talented and has yet to learn the basic's of winning in the NBA which you can pretty much see in the final 5 minutes of nearly every game your not going to have success.

Fire Karl 100% but my concern is someone had to have had some foresight that this trio of players were not capable of winning, going all in on these 3 where only 1 of those 3 players has any chance to get better and at best you couldn't even get a 8th seed in a conference badly weakened and our main competitors all RAVAGED by injury that's embarrassing.

I would trade all of them but if they do keep Cousins you can't keep KK/Belli/Rondo/Gay. You have to try draft a superstar in the draft there's really no other way I don't see any good players coming here unless the Suns want to trade us Bledsoe who's a massive injury risk type player.

 

[King Baller]

Fire Karl and keep Cousins. Renew Vlade's contract. Hire Thibs if he will come to Sacto. If not explore Coaches like Van Gundy, Ettore Messina, Hornacek, Brooks, TR Dunn, Mario Elie and Terry Porter. I would talk to mark Jackson because I think he did a good job with the players in Oakland and had the support of the locker room even when the owners canned him.

On the player side you keep an eye on where Durant goes. If he ends up in GSW there will be some good players moved to make room in their salary cap. Be nice to pick up Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala. Otherwise you get the best 2 guard available and bring in someone who can guard Lebron. Why the focus on Lebron? Respect from the Officials. Anyone who has successfully defended Lebron is allowed to play defense.

What kind of deal Rondo requires will be a sticking point. Free Agents I like are Mike Conley, Kent Bazemore, Luol Deng, Demar Derozan, Pau Gasol, Al Horford, Hassan Whiteside, Nic Batum, Ryan Anderson, Jordan Clarkson, Evan Fournier, Courtney Lee, Matt Barnes, Matthew Dellavedova. Wow what a list! Some of those guys would require other roster moves. But having so many other players up for grabs puts the Rondo decision in an interesting spot.

The wild card is that Vivek has been awfully quiet

 

[Livinthedream]

Their sample size is far larger, even with that. I doubt a whole swarm of people are voting multiple times in there. It's not an all star vote or anything. The bias in this poll is far greater. STR appeals to more of the fanbase than in here. I think it's far more representative of the overall fanbase.

You trying to compare the power of that poll with yours really shows the bias here. 2500 vs 50? And you think this one's better? Come on.

Different kinds of sites. Hard to compare. More people doesn't mean better. And being allowed to vote multiple times does corrupt statistical data. It can't be argued.

As far as personalities dominating sites, it happens in both places. If you don't see it, it might be your own bias. 80/20 rule applies.

 

[Chubbs]

What does this prove? That he scores more after techs? Do those stats take into account layups or open threes for the other team because Demarcus is snapping at the refs or trotting down the floor? Stupid analytics age we live in where every argument turns into numbers. Ive seen practically every Kings game in the Cousins era and NEVER do I remember a time where a Cousins mental breakdown led to good basketball by the Sacramento Kings.

Simply trying to show you objective data. I can see that's not compelling to you.

Let's rely on your memory instead.

 

[mac]

FWIW (which isn't much) - I would fire Karl and trade Cousins and rebuild. Get rid of Rudy too. I'm just sick and tired of the constant drama surrounding this team and DeMarcus Cousins in particular. I find it increasingly difficult to root for a team with DeMarcus Cousins on it, which pretty much defeats the purpose of being a fan. For all his talk of whoever not having his back, he's often the one who doesn't have his teammates' back, or he'd get back on defense more, not complain and get himself out of games, not throw away seasons feuding with coaches etc. In my subjective opinion, Cousins is only too happy having it all be about him. Sure, he will give it all, provided it's done his way and his way only. He values trust and loyalty, but is never the one to give it first. He says winning is all he wants, but rarely acts like it. In other words, he's a big kid that needs coddling, not a mature leader. It's his way or the high way. In that regard I totally understand Karl's comment about the team being a "one man ego" team. Nobody else draws the same kind of attention, both good and bad, that Cousins does.

Still, you cannot deny that he's damn talented, and the question is only whether the talent is worth everything else. But if we keep him (which will likely happen) and get a new coach I'm willing to give it a shot and cheer for the team. I strongly believe though, that Cousins blowing up and throwing fits in the season or during a game is not a matter of "if", but "when". My preference is still to just move forward from this whole mess. There are those wanting to give it another year with a different coach, and I'm okay with that too.

 

[The_Jamal]

Simply trying to show you objective data. I can see that's not compelling to you.

Let's rely on your memory instead.

I mean, that's a fun graphic and all, but it's not really objective data. That "stat" falls under the "When Cousins eats a hamburger for dinner and when he doesn't" mold. Is that just this season or his career? How many games? How many minutes before and after? What defenses were we playing?

 

[Chubbs]

I mean, that's a fun graphic and all, but it's not really objective data. That "stat" falls under the "When Cousins eats a hamburger for dinner and when he doesn't" mold. Is that just this season or his career? How many games? How many minutes before and after? What defenses were we playing?

Per 36, from last season. Raw numbers after a technical. He had 14. Russel had 15. 14 games, 15 games I don't know the minutes. Don't know the teams. Minutes could be small. Depends at what point in games they tend to accumulate technicals.

But yeah, silly graphic. Of course. Just as silly as the claim Demarcus is an energy sucking x man who acquires the energy of his teammates, making them worse.

 

[rhythmless]

Different kinds of sites. Hard to compare. More people doesn't mean better. And being allowed to vote multiple times does corrupt statistical data. It can't be argued.

As far as personalities dominating sites, it happens in both places. If you don't see it, it might be your own bias. 80/20 rule applies.

Different sites, but compared to polls here the sheer numbers invalidate the loss of power due to validity of multiple votes. Sure, you lose a lot of credence with multiple voting, but no one's talking about the registration bias here, are we? 35x more votes there compared to here. Really, whatever you try and throw out is nullified by the sheer dwarfing of sample size, as well as the bias in these polls that no one talks about. Can we at least admit that?

You guys can argue "knowledgable fanbase" or whatever you want, but I don't see how anyone can argue that the other site doesn't represent more Kings "fans" than here. If you wanna disparage other fans that don't have the same viewpoints or dedication of you guys, sure. If you wanna talk about how most others are not knowledgable, sure. Have at it. But it's definitely a more valid poll than here. Don't forget, we can register multiple computers, emails, screen names here. I don't understand how this is even a sticking point.

Purely speculative/accusatory, but if anyone cares to vote multiple times to skew a poll that doesn't mean anything, it would be some of the diehards in here. So how about we stop pretending?

 

[VF21]

Different sites, but compared to polls here the sheer numbers invalidate the loss of power due to validity of multiple votes. Sure, you lose a lot of credence with multiple voting, but no one's talking about the registration bias here, are we? 35x more votes there compared to here. Really, whatever you try and throw out is nullified by the sheer dwarfing of sample size, as well as the bias in these polls that no one talks about. Can we at least admit that?

You guys can argue "knowledgable fanbase" or whatever you want, but I don't see how anyone can argue that the other site doesn't represent more Kings "fans" than here. If you wanna disparage other fans that don't have the same viewpoints or dedication of you guys, sure. If you wanna talk about how most others are not knowledgable, sure. Have at it. But it's definitely a more valid poll than here. Don't forget, we can register multiple computers, emails, screen names here. I don't understand how this is even a sticking point.

Purely speculative/accusatory, but if anyone cares to vote multiple times to skew a poll that doesn't mean anything, it would be some of the diehards in here. So how about we stop pretending?

What exactly are you arguing? My comment that I personally questioned the validity of the numbers in the StR poll? I stand by my opinion. While you are more than entitled to disagree with it, it's not the real point. The real point is that ONCE AGAIN it is apparent there is a divisiveness among Kings fans. At the end of the day, it would be so nice if that wasn't a problem. How nice would it be if we agreed about our team and just argued about opponents, game strategy, etc? I've been a fan long enough to actually remember a very short period of time when that was actually fact - well, except for the unending Peja v. Webber battles but that's an argument for another day.

StR has its loyal supporters and we have ours. They're a different type of board than we are, which is fine. I don't understand the need to continue to belabor the point.

 

[rhythmless]

What exactly are you arguing? My comment that I personally questioned the validity of the numbers in the StR poll? I stand by my opinion. While you are more than entitled to disagree with it, it's not the real point. The real point is that ONCE AGAIN it is apparent there is a divisiveness among Kings fans. At the end of the day, it would be so nice if that wasn't a problem. How nice would it be if we agreed about our team and just argued about opponents, game strategy, etc? I've been a fan long enough to actually remember a very short period of time when that was actually fact - well, except for the unending Peja v. Webber battles but that's an argument for another day.

StR has its loyal supporters and we have ours. They're a different type of board than we are, which is fine. I don't understand the need to continue to belabor the point.

There's a LOT of people that are done w/DMC. I'm against that faction, but I'm not going to pretend it's some blip on the radar. Nor am I, like some people on ehre, going to pretend that I'm better than those people.

I don't appreciate the attitude that this board has on other opinions. It's dismissive of the vote and dismissive of the people voting. These are real people with real feelings. They may watch just as many games as everyone here and may spend just the same amount of money. These people don't care if DMC is here or not. And whether people here want to stick their heads in the sand about it or not, they can affect Kings basketball just as much as the people here.

The poll is valid. That's my point. And since it's valid, it's a problem. I think you agree with that portion.

 

[Livinthedream]

Different sites, but compared to polls here the sheer numbers invalidate the loss of power due to validity of multiple votes. Sure, you lose a lot of credence with multiple voting, but no one's talking about the registration bias here, are we? 35x more votes there compared to here. Really, whatever you try and throw out is nullified by the sheer dwarfing of sample size, as well as the bias in these polls that no one talks about. Can we at least admit that?

You guys can argue "knowledgable fanbase" or whatever you want, but I don't see how anyone can argue that the other site doesn't represent more Kings "fans" than here. If you wanna disparage other fans that don't have the same viewpoints or dedication of you guys, sure. If you wanna talk about how most others are not knowledgable, sure. Have at it. But it's definitely a more valid poll than here. Don't forget, we can register multiple computers, emails, screen names here. I don't understand how this is even a sticking point.

Purely speculative/accusatory, but if anyone cares to vote multiple times to skew a poll that doesn't mean anything, it would be some of the diehards in here. So how about we stop pretending?

Not sure what you're upset about. I made no attempt to argue which site was better or who was more knowledgeable and have no desire to. If someone has an opinion that one site is better, then so what. You're not shy about telling us how you feel about the two, and that's your right.

As far as statistics go, you're missing market research 101 fundamentals. Yes, the sample size is bigger at STR, but the data is unreliable. Therefore any conclusions or analysis using the data would be invalid. It is not about who is more likely to vote more than once. It's the fact that the option is readily available. Registering multiple computers is far less likely to occur than having the ability to just click a button as many times as you want in one sitting.

 

[Livinthedream]

The poll is valid. That's my point. And since it's valid, it's a problem. I think you agree with that portion.

The poll is entertainment. Not scientific.

 

[VF21]

There's a LOT of people that are done w/DMC. I'm against that faction, but I'm not going to pretend it's some blip on the radar. Nor am I, like some people on ehre, going to pretend that I'm better than those people.

I don't appreciate the attitude that this board has on other opinions. It's dismissive of the vote and dismissive of the people voting. These are real people with real feelings. They may watch just as many games as everyone here and may spend just the same amount of money. These people don't care if DMC is here or not. And whether people here want to stick their heads in the sand about it or not, they can affect Kings basketball just as much as the people here.

The poll is valid. That's my point. And since it's valid, it's a problem. I think you agree with that portion.

I have no idea what you're trying to say, but apparently I ruffled your feathers big time and for that I apologize.