Peja: "The New Chris Webber"

VF21 · Jan 5, 2006

Bonzinator said:

Oh geez. Do you guys know any other refrains to that same old tune?

SAR blah, blah, blah...

He's a problem as much as the rest of the team. He has been part of the team that has amassed an impressive record of such monumental proportions that the Kings leasing the bottom of the NBA with an optiion to buy.

Sometimes pieces don't fit. Regardless of his consistency, the team he was being so consistent on, was LOSING. Losing...you know, as in not winning. As in failing to meet the primary objective.

Every single player on the team right now is part of the problem. It's not about whether someone can defend against Tim Duncan (we LOST that game) or Kevin Garnett (we've split with the Wolves and I defy you to prove SAR was the reason for the one win against them).

Every...

single...

player...

on...

the...

team...

is...

part...

of...

the...

problem.

Any questions?

NumberFour · Jan 5, 2006

VF21 said:

How do we fix it?

Kings241 · Jan 5, 2006

NumberFour said:

we can't

VF21 · Jan 5, 2006

NumberFour said:

We hope that Petrie has a plan. We have good players but that doesn't mean they fit together.

If you have two very expensive jigsaw puzzles and you accidentally mix them together, you will still have very expensive puzzles but they won't fit together properly. You have to sort the pieces, getting rid of the ones that don't fit the particular picture you're trying to make.

That, IMHO, is our problem. I think - as a fan - that our current problems start with Peja. He's simply not the right piece for the puzzle any longer. I also think SAR is problematic, as he puts up consistent numbers but we lose.

The Bibby, Martin, Garcia, KT, Miller lineup is far from perfect but I like it better than Bibby, Martin, Peja, KT and Miller because of the ability of guys like Garcia to hustle and energize the team.

If we can get healthy, I'd like to see Bibby, Martin, Bonzi, KT/SAR, Miller and see what happens. It's not like we'd be risking dropping in the standings.

I really think Petrie is going to move Peja. What he's able to get in return will most likely shape the identity of our Kings at least in the foreseeable future.

ParniValjak · Jan 5, 2006

Bricklayer said:

Given what a load of patooty I considered that whole simplistic Webber bashing bit, I would be a more than a bit of a hypocrite if I accepted this line of reasoning now, especially off of a five game sample size. We've already done the "let's get rid of the talented player for trash and go for addition by subtraction" thing once and we are in danger of falling off the basketball map as a result.

I do think Peja should be moved for a better and cheaper piece who's heart is in it. I do not believe after 7 years on very high scoring teams that he has suddenly uncloaked himself as some sort of poisonous plant destructive to a team's offense. In fact I suspect that our record might be better without just about ANY of our starting 5, simply because it frees up shots and roles for the others. Take away Reef and leave Peja, and we win more too. And outside of Bonzi, who might be special because of his hustle game, the same would apply to the other starters as well if we only had reasonable backups for them. Peja may be sucking his way right out of town finally, but its the structure of the team that is broken more than anythign Peja himself is doing.

Nail. Hammer. Head

outsider62 · Jan 5, 2006

Bonzinator said:

On the same night Bibby shot 4 out of 20 (or something like that)! THE POINT GUARD!

It's easy to yell, It's harder to think.

Btw, Brick, finally the post from you I completely agree with.

bibbinator · Jan 5, 2006

NumberFour said:

Peja should come off the bench for the occasional three like Brent Barry. Peja does not have the athleticism and seems to have lost the heart to be a starter. It's time for him to go to the bench for awhile until he figures things out. If that doesn't help he should be traded.

I'd trade Peja for Barry.

Warhawk · Jan 5, 2006

VF21 said:

We hope that Petrie has a plan. We have good players but that doesn't mean they fit together.

If you have two very expensive jigsaw puzzles and you accidentally mix them together, you will still have very expensive puzzles but they won't fit together properly. You have to sort the pieces, getting rid of the ones that don't fit the particular picture you're trying to make.

That, IMHO, is our problem. I think - as a fan - that our current problems start with Peja. He's simply not the right piece for the puzzle any longer. I also think SAR is problematic, as he puts up consistent numbers but we lose.

The Bibby, Martin, Garcia, KT, Miller lineup is far from perfect but I like it better than Bibby, Martin, Peja, KT and Miller because of the ability of guys like Garcia to hustle and energize the team.

If we can get healthy, I'd like to see Bibby, Martin, Bonzi, KT/SAR, Miller and see what happens. It's not like we'd be risking dropping in the standings.

I really think Petrie is going to move Peja. What he's able to get in return will most likely shape the identity of our Kings at least in the foreseeable future.

Someone who gets it. Except, I still have a hard time painting Bonzi or SAR as part of the problem right now. I really do.

I just wonder who is going to be bundled with Peja (if anyone) and what we get in return....

starks · Jan 5, 2006

I think that Kings' problems don't start with Peja. He is not bigger problem than Biby, Brad or Adelman....one also can say that our problems start with coach, point guard or bench and can be right....Peja's contract expiring and I believe he'll be traded before February. However it will not solve our problems....we have players that don't fit into the system and changing the system requires time, patient and new coach…..btw after Peja’s trade I expect Biby will be next target on this forum…. and probably will be more protected by administrators because after Webber and Divac he is their favorite King…we’ll see

Padrino · Jan 5, 2006

starks said:

it will solve at least one. the kings will rid themselves of an uber-softie who underperformed last season and has grossly underperformed through 30 games this season.

vj9999 · Jan 5, 2006

Padrino said:

24 games to be fair

He was über injured for six games.

Padrino · Jan 5, 2006

vj9999 said:

meh...it was mostly a bull**** pinky injury. counts as underperformance in my book.

DeAtHrOw · Jan 5, 2006

Padrino said:

I am sure Peja will be upset.

Bricklayer · Jan 5, 2006

Warhawk said:

Well given that we had the same "core" last year, only surrounded by a one-legged man and an old guard 6 months from retirement instead of Reef and Bonzi, and yet were 20-9 on this date instead of 12-18, I'd damn well say that those new guys must have SOMETHING to do with it. Not of course that they have ever lost before in their careers or anything.

love_them_kings · Jan 5, 2006

Bricklayer said:

I think a lot of our problem comes from what we're missing in that one legged man & retiring guard rather than what we added. Our pieces just don't fit together, and our remaining "core" isn't quite the same without their supporting cast. But, yes, Reef & Bonzi are part of the problem. When you go from what we had to what we have I think it's safe to say that everyone on the team is part of the problem.

rexb_kings · Jan 5, 2006

Common guys, the Kings have one of the best starting 5's in the NBA on paper at least. Kings have one of the best point guards that can run the pick-n-roll (read the offense very well, can pass and hit jumpers), we have a decent PF in Rahim who can score inside and outside, you have a very good passing Center that can hit the out-side jumper. Peja who's an outide threat especially when left open and Bonzi who can defend, rebound and provide offense and defensive spark. I bet if Sloan, PJax was coaching this team we won't be on the bottom of the Pacific division. I agree that the system (Princeton offense) no longer fits the current players but you have to play on the capability of the players and as a team as well.

My guess is, on the start of the season, when the Kings got the players they wanted that they thought they could duplicate the Kings of CWebb/Vlade time they'll run the same system. But now every body knows the hard way that it doesn't work anymore.

Padrino · Jan 5, 2006

rexb_kings said:

Common guys, the Kings have one of the best starting 5's in the NBA on paper at least. Kings have one of the best point guards that can run the pick-n-roll (read the offense very well, can pass and hit jumpers), we have a decent PF in Rahim who can score inside and outside, you have a very good passing Center that can hit the out-side jumper. Peja who's an outide threat especially when left open and Bonzi who can defend, rebound and provide offense and defensive spark. I bet if Sloan, PJax was coaching this team we won't be on the bottom of the Pacific division. I agree that the system (Princeton offense) no longer fits the current players but you have to play on the capability of the players and as a team as well.

My guess is, on the start of the season, when the Kings got the players they wanted that they thought they could duplicate the Kings of CWebb/Vlade time they'll run the same system. But now every body knows the hard way that it doesn't work anymore.

and this is the difference between on-paper basketball and on-court basketball. you can't just throw five guys on the court who look great on paper if they don't fit together.

Burrito06 · Jan 5, 2006

outsider62 said:

Yeah he shot terrible but on the same night he dropped 11 dimes. Still helped the team in a different way. Peja's 1 rebound doesnt help much if he rebounds tries to take it the length of the floor only to be stripped from behind. This happened at least 3 times that night.

nbrans · Jan 5, 2006

Burrito06 said:

I mean, 11 assists is great, and certainly better than 0, but not many teams win when one of their players shoots 4-20.

VF21 · Jan 5, 2006

starks said:

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Bibby has already taken a great deal of heat on this forum. The only times threads have been closed have been when things got too heated, members started making personal attacks, etc.

If people have legitimate criticisms to make about any player on this team, they are more than welcome to do so, provided they follow the rules of the forum. If, however, all they want to do is defend THEIR favorite player at the expense of another, then they can find somewhere else to do it.

Kingsfans.com has some of the most articulate posters I've ever encountered on message boards. We have members who love the game of basketball, love the Sacramento Kings (or in some cases, other teams), want to argue/debate everything they possibly can and are willing to do so with respect for each other AND without the need to resort to virtually throwing feces at each other.

I have been a fan of this team for 20+ years as have Bricklayer and Jeremy. It's not about the name on the back of the jersey for us. It's about the name on the front. We will continue to run this forum in a manner that allows as much debate as possible without allowing discussions to dissolve into nothing more than redundant attacks on players or other members.

outsider62 · Jan 6, 2006

Burrito06 said:

That's exactly the style of posting I emulated. I know he did pass well, I just applied the approach used towards Peja these days.

Geoff · Jan 6, 2006

piksi said:

So who would Webb have played second fiddle to on this team?

outsider62 · Jan 6, 2006

Geoff said:

It was not about being second fiddle. Before he came back nobody was second fiddle. The ball was moved quickly and shared. Quite different basketball than one played in philly. He had skills and ability to play Vlade/Miller role maybe even better then them at the time being.

Bricklayer · Jan 6, 2006

outsider62 said:

That is a great misnomer -- there was ALWAYS a clear #1 (Webber) and clear #2 (Peja) during all of our glory years. And even during the year when Webb was out, there once again was a clear #1 (Peja). At no point were we some bizarre Marxist variety of basktball where everyone got to share and take the same number of shots.

acisking · Jan 6, 2006

Purple Reign said:

One of the biggest complaints when Webber was a member of the Kings was how much better the team played when he was not there.

Since November 20th, the Kings are 4-11 when Peja Stojakovic is in the lineup. They are 4-1 when he is not in the lineup

They score 107.8 in that 4-1 record without peja
They score 97.8 in the 4-11 record with Peja

In his last 15 games, the Kings have shot an amazing .472 compared to shooting .466 without Peja. However in those 15 games Peja is only shooting .394

I could go on with a lot more statistics but you get the point. Is there any corelation or just a coincidence?

very good point,,,i couldn't agree more

acisking · Jan 6, 2006

Bricklayer said:

Well given that we had the same "core" last year, only surrounded by a one-legged man and an old guard 6 months from retirement instead of Reef and Bonzi, and yet were 20-9 on this date instead of 12-18, I'd damn well say that those new guys must have SOMETHING to do with it. Not of course that they have ever lost before in their careers or anything.

that's so true its depressing

Circa_1985_Fan · Jan 6, 2006

Padrino said:

I gave THAT amen a long time ago! HA!

outsider62 · Jan 7, 2006

Bricklayer said:

You are talking about shooting, right? About who gets the most shots? I was talking about touches and involvment. Webber was #1 option in everything when he played. Without Webber everybody was involved more. Peja shoot the most shots, but shots were distributed and all 6 main players were involved. And it is not Marxist variaty it is motion (princton) offense played by the talented team. And that system was proved right by leading record month before the PO.

Bricklayer · Jan 7, 2006

outsider62 said:

Actually that system has never been proven "right" if "right" = "winning anything". But its a nice system, ESPECIALLY when you simply aren't as good as the other team. In fact that's the whole basis of the idea -- a way for underdog teams to level the playing field. Not a way for good ones to win a title. The best the Princeton ever was in terms of mattering, of winning anything, was the most perverted undemocratic form of it that we ran. Run "the system" for the guys who aren't good enough without it, then break the system and let the big dogs play.

Zyphen · Jan 7, 2006

Hmmm, didn't even occur to me that we were running (or trying to) a communist system. Well, it kinda did, but not in a politically analogous way. Now it's stuck in my head. In the end, we really just want a simple dictatorship.

Peja: "The New Chris Webber"

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