Our Guard and Usage

[Agent23]

I don't think that is the issue. I think the issue is more of minute distribution than Tyreke not getting the ball enough when he does get minutes. The argument that simply getting more shots for Tyreke is solution doesn't take into account whether those shots are going to be good shots or not. If it were that simple, oh joy, but I don't think you simply give Tyreke 5 more shots a game and voila, bliss is here.

Please, I'm a Civil Engineer. And back to the subject. Some people hold his previous scouting report to heart. He's not that player anymore. You act like he's the ONLY guard in the league that gets called for charges in this league. Tyreke has been called for 16 charges this year. James Harden has been called for 27. You see what you want to see sometimes. Not saying Tyreke is the greatest decision maker ever. He's just not as bad as some of us want to believe. See what happens when he's on a team with better coaching.

 

[ESP47]

While I agree that it's idiotic the way Smart plays Tyreke, it's not like Tyreke is a good enough player to lead us to a bunch of wins either.

Tyreke shoots an excellent percentage from the field and he plays great D. He can distribute the ball and find open guys on occasion.

On the other hand he can absolutely kill good runs by dribbling the ball around for no reason. There will be 7 minutes left in a quarter and he'll randomly just start acting like these are end of quarter possessions. He can ruin possessions by waiting until there's 10 seconds left on the clock to make the first pass. He might shoot 48% but he can hurt his teammates percentages by giving them the ball with just a couple seconds left on the shot clock when they don't have any sort of positioning on the defender.

He needs to be more aggressive out there. You don't see Cousins disappearing while on the floor very often, so why does Tyreke? Smart needs to play him more minutes instead of worrying about what Thornton thinks. Tyreke needs to also work on pulling up for that close range Salmons shot in the paint. If the defenders are collapsed under the basket and you're right there, just pull up instead of running into them. More Tyreke means we suck less, but we still suck.

 

[rainmaker]

On the other hand he can absolutely kill good runs by dribbling the ball around for no reason. There will be 7 minutes left in a quarter and he'll randomly just start acting like these are end of quarter possessions. He can ruin possessions by waiting until there's 10 seconds left on the clock to make the first pass. He might shoot 48% but he can hurt his teammates percentages by giving them the ball with just a couple seconds left on the shot clock when they don't have any sort of positioning on the defender.

If I change 48% to 43% it sounds like a pretty accurate description of IT. But, when IT usually gets the ball back in a possession he backs up and iso's, doesn't swing the ball. So we've basically replaced the faults you see in Reke, with a lesser player and just have him do it instead, except for when Reke does it he's not ignoring someone as talented as himself on the wing, while when IT does it he is ignoring someone named Reke and freezing him out.

However, you only point to Reke having these issues, ignore IT does the same while often freezing Reke out, and instead say Reke needs to be more aggressive. You don't see Cuz disappear because he's force fed the ball no matter what. Reke needs the ball. IT and Smart stand in the way. It's not about aggression, it's about not being involved much at certain points. It's like a QB only throwing to one of his WR's three times a game, then fans coming out and say the WR simply needs to be more aggressive. Well, he actually needs the ball thrown his way more.

 

[Npliam]

I'm going to return here to a theme I touched on a month ago, but that remains eternally vexing. Tyreke Evans shot 10-17 two nights ago. Last night he shot 8-12. These are not uncommon occurrences. Yet he again was forgotten about and back burnered for extended stretchs of each game while lesser talents displayed their own, unique, interpretations of how to dominate the ball.(*Should note btw that in recent weeks there has been some positive movement on this by Smart. Emphasis on some. He still seems confused and erratic on the topic).


Here are some numbers on our Guard. You will notice I used the singlar there. And capitalized it. Neither is by accident:

Tyreke Evans, since returning from injury (20 games):
January: 29.9min 14.7pts (.500 .533 .754) 5.2reb 2.8ast 1.5stl 0.5blk
Febrary: 33.6min 16.7pts (.517 .100 .686) 3.9reb 3.6ast 1.3stl 0.1blk

Tyreke Evans, season FG%: .480

Tyreke Evans season FG% compared to all other NBA guards:

-- our guard who is 6th amongst guards in FG%, is 72nd in the league in FGA, virtually tied with Anderosn Varejao and JJ Reddick.


Tyreke Evans selected stats compared to all players routinely taking minutes and shots from Tyreke Evans:
[TABLE="border=1, width: "460"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 150"]Player[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 60"]Min[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 60"]Pts[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 60"]FG%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 70"]FGA/36[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 60"]USG*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="height: 6, width: 150"]Tyreke Evans[/TD]
[TD="height: 6, width: 60"]31.1[/TD]
[TD="height 6, width: 60"]15.3[/TD]
[TD="height 6, width: 60"].480[/TD]
[TD="height 6, width: 70"]13.6[/TD]
[TD="height 6, width: 60"]22.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="height: 10, width: 150"]Isaiah Thomas[/TD]
[TD="height: 10, width: 60"]24.8[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]12.1[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"].432[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 70"]13.8!![/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]22.7!![/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="height: 10, width: 150"]Marcus Thornton[/TD]
[TD="height: 10, width: 60"]23.8[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"].400[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 70"]15.7!![/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]22.7!![/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="height: 10, width: 150"]John Salmons[/TD]
[TD="height: 10, width: 60"]29.1[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]8.9[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"].411[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 70"]9.9[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]15.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="height: 10, width: 150"]Aaron Brooks[/TD]
[TD="height: 10, width: 60"]21.1[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]8.1[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"].465[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 70"]11.3[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]18.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="height: 10, width: 150"]Jimmer Fredette[/TD]
[TD="height: 10, width: 60"]14.2[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]7.3[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"].412[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 70"]15.0!![/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]24.0!![/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="height: 10, width: 150"]James Johnson[/TD]
[TD="height: 10, width: 60"]17.1[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]5.4[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"].416[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 70"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]19.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="height: 10, width: 150"]Francisco Garcia[/TD]
[TD="height: 10, width: 60"]17.9[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]5.3[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"].383[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 70"]10.4[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]14.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="height: 10, width: 150"]Travis Outlaw[/TD]
[TD="height: 10, width: 60"]11.8[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]4.7[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"].380[/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 70"]14.3!![/TD]
[TD="height 10, width: 60"]21.1!![/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
*USG rate is a stat that takes FGA, FTA and TO per minute, then adjusts for pace to try to estimate the percentage of possessions a player uses while on the floor.

I would also again like to point out the much reviled Aaron Brooks there as the only other guard on the roster without either a lousy FG%, a stupidly high usage rate, or both.

I have two thoughts on this post.

Thought 1- Nice chart Brick

Thought -2 I would be willing to bet that Jimmer's usage goes way down when he is in the Lineup with Cuz and Reke. He gets the pleasure of playing with Outlaw, Hayes, MT and the like. He is a much more willing passer when put with players that can score.

 

[IfAt1st]

For comparison this was what Beno looked like hsi last season with us:

[TD="class: xl67"]Player[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 60"]Min[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 60"]Pts[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 60"]FG%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 70"]FGA/36[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 60"]USG*[/TD]

[TD="width: 150"]Beno Udrih '10-11[/TD]
[TD="width: 60"]34.6[/TD]
[TD="width: 60"]13.7[/TD]
[TD="width: 60"].500[/TD]
[TD="width: 70"]10.9[/TD]
[TD="width: 60"]16.9[/TD]

We have blatantly disrespected good roleplayers in this organization for a long time. We are paying for it. Much of the organization will pay for it with their jobs this summer. And they deserve to.

I'm curious - do you recognize your own culpability in this disrespecting of successful roleplayers?

 

[mac]

I have two thoughts on this post.

Thought 1- Nice chart Brick

Thought -2 I would be willing to bet that Jimmer's usage goes way down when he is in the Lineup with Cuz and Reke. He gets the pleasure of playing with Outlaw, Hayes, MT and the like. He is a much more willing passer when put with players that can score.

Oo I agree with you! Jimmer doesn't seem to have the same natural chucker mentality that Brooks and IT have. He's just been told to keep shooting by his coach and scoring is the only way he can try to earn more minutes. The problem is that outside of scoring by taking so many shots he is not very useful at this point, but if he were put in a proper system he could become a useful playmaker and floor-spreader. With a good coach I'd play Jimmer with Reke and Cuz all day long.

 

[ESP47]

If I change 48% to 43% it sounds like a pretty accurate description of IT. But, when IT usually gets the ball back in a possession he backs up and iso's, doesn't swing the ball. So we've basically replaced the faults you see in Reke, with a lesser player and just have him do it instead, except for when Reke does it he's not ignoring someone as talented as himself on the wing, while when IT does it he is ignoring someone named Reke and freezing him out.

However, you only point to Reke having these issues, ignore IT does the same while often freezing Reke out, and instead say Reke needs to be more aggressive. You don't see Cuz disappear because he's force fed the ball no matter what. Reke needs the ball. IT and Smart stand in the way. It's not about aggression, it's about not being involved much at certain points. It's like a QB only throwing to one of his WR's three times a game, then fans coming out and say the WR simply needs to be more aggressive. Well, he actually needs the ball thrown his way more.

You make it seem like my post was about defending Isaiah Thomas or something. I didn't even mention IT because he's not worth talking about as far as what needs to be done to improve the team. IT, Reke and Jimmer all screw up our possessions by dribbling around doing nothing. My favorite play is when IT brings the ball up, dribbles until there's 10 seconds left on the clock, then passes to Reke behind the 3 point line. Reke then dribbles the ball as IT runs around to the baseline and then back to the 3 point line right next to Reke. Reke then passes the ball back to IT and now there's 5 seconds on the clock. We run this "play" all the time. It's either a Keith Smart special or IT and Reke just like to practice their game winning crunch time play that never happens because we're always down 20 by the end of the game.

 

[Kingster]

Ah yes, the age old "I was high on Tyreke before the draft, so now I can bash him for breathing" argument that you've kicked around

Yeah, the silly juvenile argument of: You hate Tyreke; you love IT; now give me back my lollipop!

 

[Kingster]

Minute distribution is surely a part of it. Not getting the ball and not getting minutes is the same thing on the offensive end, which is where the clash comes with IT and Tyreke. It really isn't about *only* giving Tyreke 5 more shots and our team being great, no one is saying that. It is one step of many that is needed to turn the ship in the right direction. Lesser talent should defer to better talent when the opportunity is there. IT regularly ignores this which is where the so called incompatibility comes from. If he started to distribute more, not take so many shots and step into line behind Cousins and Tyreke he wouldn't receive so much criticism on the offensive end.

Really, where is this clash that you are talking about? Nobody wants to respond the factual argument that they both are very compatible when they routinely play together according to the Smart plan in the first quarter, and the fact that Tyreke does well in that first quarter. So how could that be? How is it that the first quarters are played well by Tyreke with IT in the game. According to the "Tyreke can't play well with IT in the game crowd" that is IMPOSSIBLE. Yet we see it routinely that that is not the case.

.

 

[Glenn]

An argument can easily be made that using IT off the bench would benefit the Kings twofold. #1) it would barely change the amount of points scored in the first quarter as we have adequate firepower in Tyreke and Cuz. #2) IT could come off the bench and go a long way towards solving our huge problem with scoring in the 2nd quarter. Our bench needs a guy like IT while our starters do not. It is certainly worth a trial as this team is going nowhere and there is a well defined problem with our bench.

Then there is the problem with MT playing the same position as Tyreke. I have advocated trading MT since the middle of last year. It's not that I don't like MT but we have other needs than SG. Kingster, you always argue againast anything I say so I will assume you disagree.

 

[pshn80]

Guards and their playing time are not much different than all our positions. Our better players (at this point, our starters) need to play more minutes - at least 15 0/0. To do that we have to cut the minutes of others. My strong feeling is that Thornton and Fredette should get zero minutes. That plus small cuts to other subs would do the trick. It would simplify and improve our play on both offense and defense.

This solution won't happen because Smart needs and won't get ownership and Petrie's permission to bench Frederre and Smarts friendship with the Thornton family will prevent him from asking for permission to bench Thornton.

I say take a loss on Fredette and find another home for Thorntom. Do it and we can see the team make some more progress into coming together and playing better. Won't happen.

 

[Hadlowe]

Guards and their playing time are not much different than all our positions. Our better players (at this point, our starters) need to play more minutes - at least 15 0/0. To do that we have to cut the minutes of others. My strong feeling is that Thornton and Fredette should get zero minutes. That plus small cuts to other subs would do the trick. It would simplify and improve our play on both offense and defense.

This solution won't happen because Smart needs and won't get ownership and Petrie's permission to bench Frederre and Smarts friendship with the Thornton family will prevent him from asking for permission to bench Thornton.

I say take a loss on Fredette and find another home for Thorntom. Do it and we can see the team make some more progress into coming together and playing better. Won't happen.

We disagree then about the value of those two players. I like Thornton, although I didn't initially. His best place is probably next to a pure distributor but in a lineup of good shooters so that there is proper spacing on the floor. We don't have the shooters at the 3 or 4 to make that happen.

Fredette has value in the league, but, for whatever reason, we refuse to play him with the starters, his most logical role being a floor spacer for Tyreke and Cousins. As a second unit floor general, he's poorly used and even worse when out there with another undersized chucker like Brooks as the primary facilitator.

Again, this is part of the problem. Of our guards only Tyreke and IT are playing well. The rest of the guards have been mediocre to poor. IT's major problem for me is that his success has come at the expense of some better players on the floor. Plug IT in as a floor general for the second unit and our offense might not sputter to a standstill in the second and fourth quarters. Other than that, just find some role-players to plug in next to the stars and some new owners and GM to replace the current ones.

Edit: I see that I pretty much just mimicked Glenn's post from the previous page. Too late to delete, I suppose.

 

[pshn80]

We disagree then about the value of those two players. I like Thornton, although I didn't initially. His best place is probably next to a pure distributor but in a lineup of good shooters so that there is proper spacing on the floor. We don't have the shooters at the 3 or 4 to make that happen.

Fredette has value in the league, but, for whatever reason, we refuse to play him with the starters, his most logical role being a floor spacer for Tyreke and Cousins. As a second unit floor general, he's poorly used and even worse when out there with another undersized chucker like Brooks as the primary facilitator.

Again, this is part of the problem. Of our guards only Tyreke and IT are playing well. The rest of the guards have been mediocre to poor. IT's major problem for me is that his success has come at the expense of some better players on the floor. Plug IT in as a floor general for the second unit and our offense might not sputter to a standstill in the second and fourth quarters. Other than that, just find some role-players to plug in next to the stars and some new owners and GM to replace the current ones.

Edit: I see that I pretty much just mimicked Glenn's post from the previous page. Too late to delete, I suppose.

We do seem to disagree. Thornton does have something to offer in this league but I feel it's not with the Kings because he is basically a one-one player, necessarily selfish and team play is what we need and it's not him.

I disagree on Fredette. In my view he is no-where quick enough or agile as a ball-handler to hold his own on offense or defense which is ashame because of his other talents. If we started him it would turn out poorly because the other teams first stringers would really take advantage of him. I know this is not a popular view but it is what
I see.

Just a little elaboration on my views noted above.