Glenn
Hall of Famer
Next year can be great. This year is becoming unwatchable for me.
Only way to rebuild
- Thread starter fansinceday1
- Start date
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
Must be all the losing. That's all we know as fans, negative negative negative until proven otherwise. Give us a reason to be optimistic. That's yet to happen.
fansinceday1
Starter
Don't make it sound like we're ridiculous for having these feelings. I'm not talking about a team that is 2 years out of playing in the WCF. This franchise has been inept at every turn. They've peed away all the good will they built with the new arena and they haven't even moved in yet. Up to now, they've WASTED cousins career. This has been an ongoing embarrassment for over a decade and fans who are up in arms are pissing you off?
We have 1 year to turn this around. You think our fan ridiculousness is bad now, what do you think it'll be like with cousins playing out his expiring contract and no resolution yet in sight?
What makes you think that after over a decade of being a complete dumpster fire, the kings are going to all of a sudden, IN 1 YEAR, turn it all around and salvage this team enough to retain cousins? I have over a decade of screw ups telling me that I'm completely justified in my worry that the sky really is falling.
lwc
Starter
I honestly believe that the Kings are a defensive 2 guard and a defensive-minded coach away from being a legitimate playoff team. I honestly believe that McLemore could be that defensive player if a coach came in and took time to focus on defense and gave him time to play. He's incredibly athletic and a work horse. I think if a coach he could trust would sit down with him and it helped mold him into that defensive stud, then it could happen.
As far as a coach goes, George Karl has been incredibly unimpressive. It may be the most infuriating aspect of anything involving the Kings in my lifetime. (Grant it, I am not a Sacramento native so the moving thing didn't hit me as hard as it hit many of you).
To imagine that the only team George Karl has coached in his entire career that has not made the playoffs is the Kings. And he had some pretty awful rosters that he made the playoffs with. This may honestly be the most talented team outside of the Seattle teams he's ever had. I just cannot figure out why this did not work. George Karl is borderline brilliant. Is it ego? Is he losing his mind? Is he so prideful that even knowing what the best option is for winning games with this roster he has to challenge himself to win a different way?
I can't think of any knowledgeable basketball mind that I know that would say with this roster to play Nolan Richardson basketball when against practically every team in the NBA there's a size and power advantage at almost every position. That would say to take the most dominant interior scoring presence in the NBA and park him at the top of the 3 point line. To take one of the greatest sets shooters in the NBA and turn him into a dribble drive, fade away, 3 point shooter. To take one of the best 6th man players in the NBA and play him extended minutes in a shared backcourt with a currently bad defensive player effectively destroying backcourt defense. These things and more are baffling to me and everyone that I know.
As far as a coach goes, George Karl has been incredibly unimpressive. It may be the most infuriating aspect of anything involving the Kings in my lifetime. (Grant it, I am not a Sacramento native so the moving thing didn't hit me as hard as it hit many of you).
To imagine that the only team George Karl has coached in his entire career that has not made the playoffs is the Kings. And he had some pretty awful rosters that he made the playoffs with. This may honestly be the most talented team outside of the Seattle teams he's ever had. I just cannot figure out why this did not work. George Karl is borderline brilliant. Is it ego? Is he losing his mind? Is he so prideful that even knowing what the best option is for winning games with this roster he has to challenge himself to win a different way?
I can't think of any knowledgeable basketball mind that I know that would say with this roster to play Nolan Richardson basketball when against practically every team in the NBA there's a size and power advantage at almost every position. That would say to take the most dominant interior scoring presence in the NBA and park him at the top of the 3 point line. To take one of the greatest sets shooters in the NBA and turn him into a dribble drive, fade away, 3 point shooter. To take one of the best 6th man players in the NBA and play him extended minutes in a shared backcourt with a currently bad defensive player effectively destroying backcourt defense. These things and more are baffling to me and everyone that I know.
The Kings are only 5 games out of the 8th seed with 23 games left. So it's possible that they could go on a run and leapfrog the Jazz and Rockets to get into that 8th seed.
But it's probably more likely that they drop their next four games (@ Dallas, @ San Antonio, @ New Orleans, vs Cleveland) which could very well see them dropping to the league's sixth worst record.
In a year with a weak Western Conference, after making a splash in free agency (Rondo, Koufos, Belinelli), drafting WCS, having a full training camp with Karl and relatively good health through the season the Kings are staring at the possibility of finishing one slot lower than they did last year after a complete dumpster fire of a season. That's depressing.
Unless the Kings starting stringing some wins together it's pretty hard to make the argument that a different coach takes this same roster to the playoffs next year. If the Kings finish 6th or 7th again this year (if they finish the season with the same winning percentage they have now they'll win 33 games) then I think we're out of the land of tweaks and into the realm of major overhaul.
Hell, the Portland Trailblazers returned one starter and only five players overall (Lillard, McCollum, Crabbe, Leonard and the ghost of Kaman) and they are not only in the playoff hunt, they are currently surging and threatening to take the 6th seed. A sixth seed that is currently occupied by another team we thought the Kings could leapfrog this year - Dallas.
The big question is if you do it to build around Cousins or if you use the haul you'd get from trading him to start a rebuild. I'd much prefer the former, but I'm very slowly warming up to the latter. I can't believe that Lillard and McCollum can carry that mish mash of a roster to the playoffs and Rondo/Gay/Cousins can't win more that a few games more than last year's disastrous season.
I don't think Rondo helps the Kings win games.
I don't think Rudy Gay helps the Kings win games.
I'm pretty certain McLemore and Belinelli don't help the Kings win games.
I don't think Collison (at least in the role he's playing this year) helps the Kings win games.
I don't think Cousins having a 35% usage rate and getting the ball at the three point line helps the Kings win games.
At this point I'd like to see the Kings let Rondo walk, trade Rudy, trade Ben, trade Koufos, draft well and sign players all with the goal of creating a defensive minded team that moves the ball, shoots well from outside and has Boogie in the post as it's focal point.
But it's probably more likely that they drop their next four games (@ Dallas, @ San Antonio, @ New Orleans, vs Cleveland) which could very well see them dropping to the league's sixth worst record.
In a year with a weak Western Conference, after making a splash in free agency (Rondo, Koufos, Belinelli), drafting WCS, having a full training camp with Karl and relatively good health through the season the Kings are staring at the possibility of finishing one slot lower than they did last year after a complete dumpster fire of a season. That's depressing.
Unless the Kings starting stringing some wins together it's pretty hard to make the argument that a different coach takes this same roster to the playoffs next year. If the Kings finish 6th or 7th again this year (if they finish the season with the same winning percentage they have now they'll win 33 games) then I think we're out of the land of tweaks and into the realm of major overhaul.
Hell, the Portland Trailblazers returned one starter and only five players overall (Lillard, McCollum, Crabbe, Leonard and the ghost of Kaman) and they are not only in the playoff hunt, they are currently surging and threatening to take the 6th seed. A sixth seed that is currently occupied by another team we thought the Kings could leapfrog this year - Dallas.
The big question is if you do it to build around Cousins or if you use the haul you'd get from trading him to start a rebuild. I'd much prefer the former, but I'm very slowly warming up to the latter. I can't believe that Lillard and McCollum can carry that mish mash of a roster to the playoffs and Rondo/Gay/Cousins can't win more that a few games more than last year's disastrous season.
I don't think Rondo helps the Kings win games.
I don't think Rudy Gay helps the Kings win games.
I'm pretty certain McLemore and Belinelli don't help the Kings win games.
I don't think Collison (at least in the role he's playing this year) helps the Kings win games.
I don't think Cousins having a 35% usage rate and getting the ball at the three point line helps the Kings win games.
At this point I'd like to see the Kings let Rondo walk, trade Rudy, trade Ben, trade Koufos, draft well and sign players all with the goal of creating a defensive minded team that moves the ball, shoots well from outside and has Boogie in the post as it's focal point.
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Glenn
Hall of Famer
They can turn it around with the proper coach. The team is reasonably solid. A few tweaks can cure any team proplems.
Here's the thing about potentially dealing Cousins this offseason - this is a relatively weak draft IMO.
Beyond Ben Simmons and maybe Dragan Bender and Brandon Ingram I'm not seeing too many guys with the potential to be franchise cornerstones.
There are a number of guys I like, but only as complimentary pieces.
Unless the Kings can deal Boogie for Ben Simmons I'd resist the urge to blow things up and build around Cousins.
Beyond Ben Simmons and maybe Dragan Bender and Brandon Ingram I'm not seeing too many guys with the potential to be franchise cornerstones.
There are a number of guys I like, but only as complimentary pieces.
Unless the Kings can deal Boogie for Ben Simmons I'd resist the urge to blow things up and build around Cousins.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
If we move up in the lottery from number 10 where we are right now, to the number one pick, then yes, Philly would be able to swap picks with us. It's still our pick. But if we had lets say, a number first round pick from another team, and that pick moved up into the number one spot, then no, Philly wouldn't be able to switch picks with us. In short, only our pick is in play, not any picks we might pick up in a trade.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I agree about the draft. There are two players at the top and then there is a dropoff. That's not to say that there's no talent below the top two, or that there isn't any starting potential there. There will be a couple of surprises. There always is. It's certainly a good draft if your looking for a big man. It's loaded with bigs. The 2017 draft is the one that looks to be loaded. If I were to trade Cousins, the kind of trade I'd look for is one like this. And this is just off the top of my head. The Kings trade Cousins and McLemore to the Chicago Bulls for Jimmy Butler, Doug McDermott, the return of the rights to this years first round draft pick, and the Bulls first round pick next year. It would leave us with WCS and Koufos as our centers, and we might be able to shore up that position through the draft or through another trade if needed. Butler can play SG and SF and he's a legit star. McDermott can play SF and he can also play a stretch four.
I'm not saying we do this, but it's an example of what I could live with going forward if we decided we needed to move Cuz. The reason I would want the Bulls first round pick next year, is because we owe our pick to Philly.
K
KingMilz
Guest
That could work if Thibs is the coach
We don't owe the 2017 pick to Philly, though. There is the swap provision, and I guess if we tanked we might be in danger of having Philly be able to take advantage of it, but that doesn't seem too likely. We do owe either our 2018 (top-10 protected, if we do not convey the 2017 pick to Chicago) or the 2019 pick (unprotected!!) to Philly.
If the Kings decide to blow things up completely and rebuild a couple years of tanking would actually be best, even if it does create the potential of Philly swapping picks.
I'm assuming the Kings keep this year's pick.
Tanking would mean they'd keep next year's pick too and at worst they'd swap with Philly.
Tanking in 2018 means the Bulls get a 2nd rounder and the Kings keep a top 10 pick though Philly can swap again.
In 2019 Philly would get the Kings pick.
I don't think the team should move Cousins and blow everything up but if they did, they'd be better off doing it this year than next. And I'd be looking for a 2016 and a (potentially) 2017 lottery pick.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
Which is why we want the this year's pick to go to Chicago, so the 2018 pick (top-10 protected) goes to Philly and not the 2019 (unprotected, and potentially on the heels of a bottomed out season if you wait for Cousins to walk in 2018). Right?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I can always count on you to correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, I couldn't remember for sure which year it was, and decided to go ahead and post without looking it up. In any event, it would be nice to acquire another first round pick in one of those years as insurance.
That's one way to look at it. But there are so many factors involved that prediction of what will happen is pretty tough. For instance, we could send the pick this year, keep 2017, still not improve in 2018 and keep the 2018 pick, have Cousins walk and lose the unprotected 2019 anyway. Obviously the plan was to make the playoffs, surrender a pick in the 15 range this year, improve next year without that pick, use a 15-20 pick in the 2017 draft, then convey a pick in 20-25 range in 2018 and be done with it. But that doesn't look like a reasonable scenario anymore.
That's because you don't pour your summer league beers over my head for doing it. If you did dole out consequences like that, I'd probably stop!
randymoss1881
Starter
Agreed there are only select few trades if do if DMC forced a trade:
Crowder/Bradley/Nets Pick
Russell/Top 3 pick
Vuc/Gordon/Oladipo
And cousins would have to demand our and cause hell
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I agree with you. It's not as though anyone wants to trade Cousins, but I think you have to at least consider the idea that he might want out if once again, were not able to put a winning team on the floor. And as Bill Walsh used to say, "Its better to trade a player one year too early, than one year too late." He may have meant it for a different reason, but it holds true. One is proactive, while the other is reactive. It's usually better in life to be proactive. Cousins is like that 5 caret diamond ring. If you have to time to put an add in the paper and be patient, you'll get a lot of money for it. But if you wait till you need the money right away, you end up at a pawn shop and get much less than what it's worth.
Were I Vlade, and he may have already done this, I would sit down with Cuz at the end of the year and have an honest discussion with him. Find out where his head is at, and how he might feel if we have yet another year of this nonsense. I've always felt that Cousins is honest, and he'll make his feelings felt if he trusts you. If your going to go forward with him, then I think you have to know he's on board for the long haul. There has been a lot of mistakes made in the last ten years, but Vlade didn't make them. That may or may not count for something with Cuz.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Hey, that would be a waste of beer! Besides, I consider you my alternative memory. Which, I might say is far better than the one I'm using right now.
If forced I'd take the Celtics deal.
Even if forced I wouldn't take the Orlando deal.
Objectively, unless the Lakers get #1 that's a bad deal for the Kings
Subjectively, I don't ever want to see Boogie playing for the GD Lakers.
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ParniValjak
All-Star
The whole point of a rebuild is to get a player of Cousins' ilk. Once you get him, then you start building around him. The roster we have is not bad but the usage of those guys is some of the worst utilization of talent I have seen in years.
A new coach that hopefully will play to his roster and not to his system will sort that out. There are still some good coaches available out there this summer that would be good fits with this team. Thibs is obviously an ideal choice.
A new coach that hopefully will play to his roster and not to his system will sort that out. There are still some good coaches available out there this summer that would be good fits with this team. Thibs is obviously an ideal choice.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Total guess on my part, but if Cousins is dealt I think it's a three way deal because it could allow Kings to get a high #1 and good assets. Usually teams with very high #1s don't have assets, or if they do they are unlikely to part with them (T-Wolves would be an example).
randymoss1881
Starter
Lakers front office unlike there fans would trade Russell/#1 pick for Cousins. They know that would mean free agents would actually come there probably gurantees then westbrook.
I feel you but if we can get Russell and Simmons or Ingram we do it. Russell will be a star over the last 7 games he's at 20-4-6.
Again only if DMC swears he's done in sacramento.
randymoss1881
Starter
**** I feel the same way.....
However if LAL get the number 1 pick and offer us Russell/Simmons and DMC has demanded a trade u say **** it that's the best deal. We'd be look at 2 potential super stars at prime positions.
Simmons has the looks if a guy that can go 20-8-5 at PF and Russell looks like a 20-4-6 PG. Russell is already showing out. It would hurt like hell seeing Cousins win a ring there but can really propel our future
I just want to pick on a few things that I don't think are accurate.
1) "Parking" Cousins at the top of the 3 point line, as if that's an ongoing thing. We've been posting him up a lot. More often than not teams front, double and triple team and he turns the ball over. But occasionally he gets good pins leading to fouls or layups. You can argue that we should be running a better offense around him when he's in the post so teams can't just triple team him. But that's a different issue from continuing to say that Karl is parking Cousins at the 3 point line. Unless you're only referring to the fact that Karl started the season off doing that in the first place.
2) I sometimes wonder if fans here have actually even watched Belinelli prior to him joining the Kings. It seems they just assume he's a spot up shooter and that it must be Karl who's misusing him. Go watch him with the Spurs and you'll see a very different picture. We're giving him the ball in very similar situations and spots, obviously with greater responsibility but it's not like we're asking him to be Jamal Crawford. The intent is similar. He's coming off screens to shoot, creating offense with quick passes and give and gos etc. The difference is him simply missing shots he normally makes, much less creative screening to get him open, and the fact that he's playing with Kosta Koufos, Omri and a bunch of other players that you would not describe as versatile with great hands or particularly gifted in the BBall IQ department instead of Boris Diaw, Ginobili and Duncan. The fact is that we're pretty much a one or two pass and shoot team while everyone else stands around watching. That doesn't bode well for anybody.
3) What would then be your solution to the Rondo-Collison minutes dilemma, especially given how bad our SG situation has been? This to me is more of a roster problem than anything.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I agree on number one and two. Cousins is averaging just under 21 shots a game, and of those 21 shots, only 3.3 are from the three point line. So I don't think you can accuse him of camping out there. And if anyone wants to take the time to look at film from Belinelli's time with the Spurs, or even more recently, his time in the world championsips for his country, he played exactly the same way he's playing for us, just more successfully. As for the Rondo/Collison situation, I would either fire Karl, or let Rondo walk at seasons end, or both. Personally, I favor both. I can't stand to look at Karl anymore, and Rondo doesn't equal winning. Plus, he's going to demand more money than his results deserve.
