Officiating
- Thread starter Greenspan 101
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This year, I think the officiating has been very mediocre. It seems to me in the past, the officials were not willing to make a call that would determined the outcome of the game, this year I think there are more ticky-tack fouls being called. This year's trend has resulted in the playoffs being less physical then they were in years past. Imagine that, the first year the Kings have tough physical players, the officials call it tight. The previous years the Kings were softer with more finesse players, the officials let them play--conspirasy?...I think so.
you have to admire jordan. he was a finesse player and the league was not revolving around star players as much (it was already treating star players on another level but the gap was not quite as wide). the bad boys beat the hell out of him but instead of waiting for the nba to save him, he did what he had to do and learned to play tough. now, kobe, lebron, ai, dirk, duncan, et al, can definitely count on the referees to bail them out in physical plays. this is a new kind of basketball. if it were done solely for the purpose of making the game better, i would be all for it. but i see it as a way to create new legends with new records, which of course means more revenue from the casual fan. commerce is commerce is commerce.
Actually its an attempt to get the league back to where it was during Jordan's heyday. When Jordan played 100+pt games were commonplace. Half the teams in the league would average 100 every year. During Jordan's first title run in '91, no less than 24 teams averaged 100+ppg. When the Bulls won 72 in '96, 13 teams averaged 100+ pts. But the Bad Boys and then the Knicks helped initiate a bump and grind, grab and hold, style of defense that slowly took over and slowed the game to a complete halt by the late 90's/early 00's. By Jordan's last title in '98 only 4 teams were over 100ppg. The league's been fighting for years trying to get it back to what it WAS, not to making it something it never was.
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i think that this is a somewhat limited analysis. it is correct but not complete.
the simple question is this: how many players without a decent jump shot, without fundamental passing or dribbling abilities but with athletic abilities or so called "potential" made it to the nba back then, how many are making it now? sure, the defensive intensity has increased, but the offensive quality of the players has degraded as well. john paxson, steve kerr were ordinary players with sharp shooting skills, right? and they were not really few. however, steve kerr has become a special player towards the end of his career. why do you think that is? in my opinion, this is due to the monotonically decreasing number of outside shooters. lack of shooting means more hustle based play, more hustle means less points. as simple as that.
the simple question is this: how many players without a decent jump shot, without fundamental passing or dribbling abilities but with athletic abilities or so called "potential" made it to the nba back then, how many are making it now? sure, the defensive intensity has increased, but the offensive quality of the players has degraded as well. john paxson, steve kerr were ordinary players with sharp shooting skills, right? and they were not really few. however, steve kerr has become a special player towards the end of his career. why do you think that is? in my opinion, this is due to the monotonically decreasing number of outside shooters. lack of shooting means more hustle based play, more hustle means less points. as simple as that.
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Yes, but which came first, chicken or the egg? offensive skills were valued more, because you could use it more freely. Now athletic ability figures more into the equation, not the least because those players can also defend. If you are athletic enough, you will ALWAYS have some slashing ability, and you will have the potential to defend as well (if you can be convinced to do so).
The stiffs with a nice shot but no hops end up being 6' tall Brad Millers (ie nice shots, but huge liabilities on Defense).
If the game is tweaked to favor the offense more, then the defensive role players that you see all over the league will start to be replaced by the offensive role players of yester-years again. Do you honestly think there is any real shortage of slow-moving stiffs with nice fundamentals and nice shots?
The stiffs with a nice shot but no hops end up being 6' tall Brad Millers (ie nice shots, but huge liabilities on Defense).
If the game is tweaked to favor the offense more, then the defensive role players that you see all over the league will start to be replaced by the offensive role players of yester-years again. Do you honestly think there is any real shortage of slow-moving stiffs with nice fundamentals and nice shots?
i say chicken.
i think that the players with athletic abilities (but with limited all around game), aka slashers, were favored not only because they can defend, but also because they could do spectacular dunks, blocks, etc. again luring the casual fan into the nba; if you are going to advertise your product, you need short, to the point pieces; who really cares whether a player had a hell of a game because he did exactly what he was told to do. that does not make the spectators go "wow" as you will need to show the whole game how that player matters. dunks, blocks are easy; they take less time and are easily marvelled at.
most people learned about jordan, at least around the world, as that freak of nature who could almost fly; air jordan, his airness. spectacular play was all that was advertised. once you choose that venue, you need athletic players more than the "stiffs" as you have eloquently put (just teasing; you know i mean no harm).
so i say chicken comes first.
i think that the players with athletic abilities (but with limited all around game), aka slashers, were favored not only because they can defend, but also because they could do spectacular dunks, blocks, etc. again luring the casual fan into the nba; if you are going to advertise your product, you need short, to the point pieces; who really cares whether a player had a hell of a game because he did exactly what he was told to do. that does not make the spectators go "wow" as you will need to show the whole game how that player matters. dunks, blocks are easy; they take less time and are easily marvelled at.
most people learned about jordan, at least around the world, as that freak of nature who could almost fly; air jordan, his airness. spectacular play was all that was advertised. once you choose that venue, you need athletic players more than the "stiffs" as you have eloquently put (just teasing; you know i mean no harm).
so i say chicken comes first.
I find the officiating mixed... Kobe got some calls. But Shaq has been officiated 'fairly'. Not that every time they touch him/he touches someone else its a foul; what it is, is that they are getting him for 3 seconds and traveling. Overall, it has been medeocre. As much as I wanted the Lakers to win that game (I want somehow for the Clipps to kill them in embarrasing fashon) Kobe charged. And to make the game faster, since the players have gotten bigger, just increase the size of the court.
In my own humble opinion, I think refs should lay off a little. That Clips/Nuggets game last night was like a football game--a whistle after every play (so it seemed). Football and hardwood don't mix IMO. There was zero rhythm. The stars get the calls in every sport, but thus far in the playoffs I think it has been especially bad. Duncan, Parker and Ginobli have mastered the travel, and I think they get away w/it b/c the game would last 3 hours if everything was called (similar to the Den/LAC game last night--pretty sure the ratings on that game weren't so hot).
Also, I think basketball is the one sport where the top TEAMS get the calls. I like Detroit, but wow, they get away with a lot of carries and fouls. Do I even need to elaborate on San Antonio? And hmm, maybe even the Lakers and Bulls back in the day...
Who knows. That's what it seems like anyway. I guess you can't please everyone.
Also, I think basketball is the one sport where the top TEAMS get the calls. I like Detroit, but wow, they get away with a lot of carries and fouls. Do I even need to elaborate on San Antonio? And hmm, maybe even the Lakers and Bulls back in the day...
Who knows. That's what it seems like anyway. I guess you can't please everyone.
Talking about chickens and eggs.
If you believe officials favor certain teams, which comes first? Does the officiating help teams get to the top or do the teams on top get help from the officials.
If it is the first, then how does the league choose a certain team to help elevate.
If it is the second, how does the team get to the top in the first place and how does the league choose which team to keep on the top?
And if the officials are helping teams get to the top, is the NBA a real sport worthy of our time and interest? Just wondering.
If you believe officials favor certain teams, which comes first? Does the officiating help teams get to the top or do the teams on top get help from the officials.
If it is the first, then how does the league choose a certain team to help elevate.
If it is the second, how does the team get to the top in the first place and how does the league choose which team to keep on the top?
And if the officials are helping teams get to the top, is the NBA a real sport worthy of our time and interest? Just wondering.
horrible, the officiating these playoffs has been god awful
i mean, that tiny jersey grab by Nenad Kristic on Anthony Johnson wrongfully cost them a game...players should decide the game not refs
also, Kobe should have got a charge in game 2, it was an obvious call that probably cost the suns the game
oh and dont forget all the travels they let us get by with late in game 2 against the spurs
i mean, that tiny jersey grab by Nenad Kristic on Anthony Johnson wrongfully cost them a game...players should decide the game not refs
also, Kobe should have got a charge in game 2, it was an obvious call that probably cost the suns the game
oh and dont forget all the travels they let us get by with late in game 2 against the spurs
So a jersey grab in end game is allright, then when do they call a foul, only if they maul the player with the ball. A foul is a foul irrespective of the situation of the game. offcourse legends are born when they play through those tiny fouls and make shots but shouldnt that be wrong (I can remember Kobe Vs bobby in the famous lakers vs kings series where a similar jersey/trouser grabbing was not called, elbow on bibby in end game in one game was called and the other game was not called )
That charge cost the suns the game WOW. Suns had lost the game long before that, even if that call was reversed suns would have still been trailing by 7 points with a chance to cut it to 4 points at max.
On the other hand, that charge / block is always difficult to call and the difference between the two is a split second. Also its always easier for the refs to call the block rather than the charge cos they can defend their call easily since the defender has to be in position, not moving, feet set, give the other player room to change direction, be outside the circle etc etc etc that its easier to call a block hoping that one of those was not right. Similarly there was a call on kwame brown on the other end where he was perfectly set but turned his body to protect himself from the high flying Diaw and was called for a block. same thing, its easier to call the block than the charge.
If you look at most of the players who get the charge calls are the ones that know to flop, who can just fly backwards with very small contact so that they really dont get hurt but at the same time show the refs that they were bumped and can fly perfectly backwards and not sideways. Derek fisher used to fly back so hard as if he was hit by a truck but would get up the next second, Vlade used to fall back on contact with a point guard and of late even Ben wallace has picked up this trick. More than the foul it is how much they can sell it that matters most.
That charge cost the suns the game WOW. Suns had lost the game long before that, even if that call was reversed suns would have still been trailing by 7 points with a chance to cut it to 4 points at max.
On the other hand, that charge / block is always difficult to call and the difference between the two is a split second. Also its always easier for the refs to call the block rather than the charge cos they can defend their call easily since the defender has to be in position, not moving, feet set, give the other player room to change direction, be outside the circle etc etc etc that its easier to call a block hoping that one of those was not right. Similarly there was a call on kwame brown on the other end where he was perfectly set but turned his body to protect himself from the high flying Diaw and was called for a block. same thing, its easier to call the block than the charge.
If you look at most of the players who get the charge calls are the ones that know to flop, who can just fly backwards with very small contact so that they really dont get hurt but at the same time show the refs that they were bumped and can fly perfectly backwards and not sideways. Derek fisher used to fly back so hard as if he was hit by a truck but would get up the next second, Vlade used to fall back on contact with a point guard and of late even Ben wallace has picked up this trick. More than the foul it is how much they can sell it that matters most.
The thing with bball is that there is not much for setting precedence. Officiating varies from game to game, and the best that can be hoped for is consistency within a single game. Personally I think if Jordan (though he may be the exception to the rule, being the greatest player) got away with a stiff-arm to win the championship, a jersey grab shouldn't decide a game in round 1 of the playoffs.
A big difference between offensive foul and defensive foul and that call is still questionable, was it a stiff arm to create separation or was it the change of direction that created the separation we will never know now and only jordan and russel can talk about that.
But if the refs felt that was an offensive foul then they should have called it.
But if the refs felt that was an offensive foul then they should have called it.
tradepeja said:
horrible, the officiating these playoffs has been god awful
i mean, that tiny jersey grab by Nenad Kristic on Anthony Johnson wrongfully cost them a game...players should decide the game not refs
also, Kobe should have got a charge in game 2, it was an obvious call that probably cost the suns the game
oh and dont forget all the travels they let us get by with late in game 2 against the spurs
i mean, that tiny jersey grab by Nenad Kristic on Anthony Johnson wrongfully cost them a game...players should decide the game not refs
also, Kobe should have got a charge in game 2, it was an obvious call that probably cost the suns the game
oh and dont forget all the travels they let us get by with late in game 2 against the spurs
It wouldn't make sense to call Kobe for the charge. That would have taken away all the symbolic significance of guy-who-should-have-been-MVP dunking on guy-who-underservedly-won-it(perhaps-because-he's-Canadian). And we wouldn't want that.