[Grades] Non-Grades v. Blazers 3/28/2016

[Bricklayer]

Who knows how it came about. Where the decision or order to sit all of our best players came from, but there it was. Front office? Player revolt? Trainer revolt? Karl saying screw you? Who knows. Not important.

To tell you the truth I barely know what went on in this one. I was barely paying attention when we were merely getting beat, started cooking a very smokey dinner while we were getting blown out, and was fooling with an addictive free bowling app while...well something happened. Apparently we showed them by beating the crap out of Luis Montero and good ole C. Alexander, whoever that is. Anyway, it was down to 12 by the end after we were down by 30 while anybody cared. But I got the hang of the bowling and threw a turkey on my way to a big victory, so it was a good night.

 

[New Era]

So what is the bowling app called?

 

[pshn80]

Who knows how it came about. Where the decision or order to sit all of our best players came from, but there it was. Front office? Player revolt? Trainer revolt? Karl saying screw you? Who knows. Not important.

To tell you the truth I barely know what went on in this one. I was barely paying attention when we were merely getting beat, started cooking a very smokey dinner while we were getting blown out, and was fooling with an addictive free bowling app while...well something happened. Apparently we showed them by beating the crap out of Luis Montero and good ole C. Alexander, whoever that is. Anyway, it was down to 12 by the end after we were down by 30 while anybody cared. But I got the hang of the bowling and threw a turkey on my way to a big victory, so it was a good night.

I watched until the late second quarter when they had a very generous lead over us - the Antiques Roadshow came on and was no longer watching the Kings in Portland. Disappointed because Acy started instead of Cauley-stein and that ruined my alliteration caper. The kings did make it interesting for most f the first Q when both teams were scoring insanely. Curry high point man with 21.

 

[Sluggah]

I went to college at a 'non-grades' school. Turned out to be way worse than getting actual grades.

 

[Bricklayer]

So what is the bowling app called?

Bowling King. Fun.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Watched winding down season street ball action for 5 minutes before walking away bleary eyed bored - mostly box score surfing for recap. Well, Ben Bustlamore's struggle continue in anything but resembling promising NBA career. 0-7 FG, an assist, 3 TOs, not much else in 26 minutes - meanwhile Seth Curry leads Kings with 21 points. Oh, I get it, one is showing up making progress, while other dude might be the one only lasting couple more years with his job. Meanwhile, quoting former coach of latest on the way out Pizza Guy...

 

[Siranthony]

I actually enjoyed the game. Both Curry and WCS had a good game. Losing by only 12 points or so was really not bad considering.

 

[gilly420]

Bad look for our organization. We are not the Spurs, these guys do not deserve rest days. Total disfunction reigns supreme.

 

[hrdboild]

You may not like it, but there's a big difference between the 7th pick in the draft and no pick it all. We're headed for a 30ish win season regardless. Ask Golden State if they feel bad about all-out tanking to keep their top 7 protected lotto pick in 2012. This is just how the game is played. We're not 9 win Philly so I don't see a moral high ground here. It's just a shame that Arco goes out like this. A shame, yet poetically appropriate.

 

[ForlornKing]

You may not like it, but there's a big difference between the 7th pick in the draft and no pick it all. We're headed for a 30ish win season regardless. Ask Golden State if they feel bad about all-out tanking to keep their top 7 protected lotto pick in 2012. This is just how the game is played. We're not 9 win Philly so I don't see a moral high ground here. It's just a shame that Arco goes out like this. A shame, yet poetically appropriate.

I don't think most of the starters will rest during home games.

 

[ppine]

A lot of teams are going to be interested in Buddy. He will go higher than projected.

 

[Ron]

I don't think most of the starters will rest during home games.

I agree.

It seems like the team & players are trying to differentiate between -

• Their love and respect to the Sactown fans, to each other, and to the game of BB (hence the strong effort and team spirit fun they showed at Arco vs. the Mavs) and
• Their disrespect towards a vindictive, spitefull head coach that drove them, and the whole organization, to yet another ugly need-to-tank position (hence the resting of stars on the road).

It seems like a pattern.
Tanking or not, I have a feeling they will try very hard to win each and every home game till the end of this season.
(Yes, even the OKC game!)

I won't be surprised if we end this season with 35 wins (without losing the 7th pick...)

 

[hrdboild]

I agree.

It seems like the team & players are trying to differentiate between -

• Their love and respect to the Sactown fans, to each other, and to the game of BB (hence the strong effort and team spirit fun they showed at Arco vs. the Mavs) and
• Their disrespect towards a vindictive, spitefull head coach that drove them, and the whole organization, to yet another ugly need-to-tank position (hence the resting of stars on the road).

It seems like a pattern.
Tanking or not, I have a feeling they will try very hard to win each and every home game till the end of this season.
(Yes, even the OKC game!)

I won't be surprised if we end this season with 35 wins (without losing the 7th pick...)

35 wins probably gets the pick sent to Chicago. I don't advocate tanking when there's something to play for, but it's done. George Karl is as good as gone regardless. Golden State, by the way, won 3 of their last 20 games in 2012 to keep that pick. They were 20-26 before that. The fans booed, the talking heads questioned whether tanking should be penalized by the league (like they do every year). Hard to remember but Golden State was considered as much of a joke then as we are. I don't think any of those fans are mad about the tanking now, I bet most of them have forgotten it ever happened. What was once a loser move by a joke of a franchise becomes prudent management in the wake of 3 straight playoff appearances and a championship.

Sorry to say this to everyone who bought tickets or wants to see us break 30 wins but the smart move at this point is to "rest" our starters the rest of the season and/or invent mysterious and unverifiable injuries to cover for it.

 

[VF21]

35 wins probably gets the pick sent to Chicago. I don't advocate tanking when there's something to play for, but it's done. George Karl is as good as gone regardless. Golden State, by the way, won 3 of their last 20 games in 2012 to keep that pick. They were 20-26 before that. The fans booed, the talking heads questioned whether tanking should be penalized by the league (like they do every year). Hard to remember but Golden State was considered as much of a joke then as we are. I don't think any of those fans are mad about the tanking now, I bet most of them have forgotten it ever happened. What was once a loser move by a joke of a franchise becomes prudent management in the wake of 3 straight playoff appearances and a championship.

Sorry to say this to everyone who bought tickets or wants to see us break 30 wins but the smart move at this point is to "rest" our starters the rest of the season and/or invent mysterious and unverifiable injuries to cover for it.

They will not tank the final home game. The organization has too many things planned for that night and ticket prices are through the roof.

 

[kingsboi]

35 wins probably gets the pick sent to Chicago. I don't advocate tanking when there's something to play for, but it's done. George Karl is as good as gone regardless. Golden State, by the way, won 3 of their last 20 games in 2012 to keep that pick. They were 20-26 before that. The fans booed, the talking heads questioned whether tanking should be penalized by the league (like they do every year). Hard to remember but Golden State was considered as much of a joke then as we are. I don't think any of those fans are mad about the tanking now, I bet most of them have forgotten it ever happened. What was once a loser move by a joke of a franchise becomes prudent management in the wake of 3 straight playoff appearances and a championship.

Sorry to say this to everyone who bought tickets or wants to see us break 30 wins but the smart move at this point is to "rest" our starters the rest of the season and/or invent mysterious and unverifiable injuries to cover for it.

Spot on. The Kings have nothing to gain here with pointless wins, but in typical Kings fashion, they will win a few more home games for their fans and in the process lose the pick by one win, watch. This draft has some nice players that can help the Kings from the SG position.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I could give a rat's ass what's "smart". The team owes full faith and credit to the ticket holders. If they lose, then they lose. If they want to put players on a minutes restriction, well, I don't like that either, but that'd be an acceptable compromise. But sitting guys who are healthy and can play is bogus.

 

[hrdboild]

I could give a rat's ass what's "smart".

You could have just stopped there....

It's fine for you to feel this way as a fan but "If they lose, then they lose" or in other words "F it, winning feels good, I don't care about the future of the team" isn't an attitude I want the front office applying to their decisions. We talk about this every year and it's always the same thing. I've yet to see a single end of the season win carry over to the following year. Yeah I know the lottery sucks but the difference here is between a 30 win team having no pick in the draft and a 30 win team having a lotto pick. Every other team in the league would do it in our situation. Losing the pick because we're trying to prove something would be just as self-destructive as allowing George Karl to sit on the sideline for the last month has been. We still get to watch Seth Curry and Willie Cauley-Stein play their hearts out every game. They've suffered through a crap year like everyone else has and earned a chance to shine. Bench the starters. Maybe not all at once like the Portland game but at least stagger them. If the bench crew wins a few games on their own, good for them. If the bench crew wins every one of our remaining games and we lose the pick, well we tried anyway.

I don't have tickets to the last game at Arco Arena/Power Balance Pavilion/Sleep Train Arena, but I would feel the same way even if I did. That building has seen a lot of losing already. I've personally watched more horrible basketball in that building already than I care to remember. We're aiming for a fresh start next year in a brand new building. Just let it go. The season ticket holders, I think, would probably like to watch some playoff basketball in the future. You want to reward their commitment and faith in the team? Do the smart thing. There's no reason to keep running our full team out there every game and acting like it'd be a pleasure to give Chicago our draft pick.

The Sacramento Kings signed a 35 year lease with the City of Sacramento and are moving into a brand new downtown arena next year. There's plenty to celebrate! Why make it about winning a meaningless game? Get every former King who wants to show up into the building. Watch highlights (and lowlights) of the past 30 years of Kings basketball in Sacramento. Show some videos to remind everyone how miraculous our fight to save the team was. Make the concessions free all night long. Put an "I was there" T-shirt on every chair. Print the names on the shirts if they're season ticket holders. I can think of a hundred ways to make that last game special without DeMarcus and Rudy on the floor.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

All of that is real easy for you to say, when you're not the one handing the organization your bread for tickets. As someone who, like you, does not live in Sacramento, I understand all too well how easy it would be for me to take a detached look at the present, and pound my chest about how much more I care about the "future of the team," but that magnanimous "big picture" view is doing **** all for the people who have season tickets this year.

Like, it's whatever if you, as a fan, want to take that view, but I would find it deplorable for such a sentiment to come from the organization. Unless Ranadivé is going to give whomever paid for the last five games at STA a refund, he'd better be trying to win every game at home, at the very least. The idea of him going to fans with his hand out, behind some "trust the process" bulldaggle is detestable.

 

[gilly420]

The nba season is too long. It is painful to watch game after game of diluted basketball when this team has been out of it for a month. I am a season ticket holder, and I am not happy with the product on the floor. Really, the Kings have sucked at home this year. There have been some terrible games, and worst of all the effort from coach and players has been really disappointing. It's not acceptable and I hope Vlade cleans house this offseason.

 

[hrdboild]

All of that is real easy for you to say, when you're not the one handing the organization your bread for tickets. As someone who, like you, does not live in Sacramento, I understand all too well how easy it would be for me to take a detached look at the present, and pound my chest about how much more I care about the "future of the team," but that magnanimous "big picture" view is doing **** all for the people who have season tickets this year.

Like, it's whatever if you, as a fan, want to take that view, but I would find it deplorable for such a sentiment to come from the organization. Unless Ranadivé is going to give whomever paid for the last five games at STA a refund, he'd better be trying to win every game at home, at the very least. The idea of him going to fans with his hand out, behind some "trust the process" bulldaggle is detestable.

I'm not a million miles away, I'm 5 1/2 hours away by car or 1 hour away by air. I'm in Sacramento 3 or 4 times a year and I usually go to a game when I'm there. I buy Kings gear for myself and my family members. I'm the biggest fan in my immediate family so I'll take them to games when I'm there. I may not be a season ticket holder, but I know some of them. This season I sat through a shellacking by Portland in December -- or actually only 3/4 of it because it took that long for the ticket office personnel to sort out why my uncle's season tickets weren't scanning properly.

And I'm also not pounding my chest about anything, I'm making an observation to the people who are pounding their chests (namely, you) that every other team in the league tanks. Why are we somehow supposed to be above it? If you want to make an argument for why winning the rest of our games puts us in a better position to improve in the off-season have at it. I would listen to that with interest. But the whole "do it for the fans" routine never rings true for me. Fans are paying to be entertained. They're paying to watch good basketball, they're paying for the thrill of hope and sharing in the success of the team with the community. This season is already over but hope remains for the future of the team if we make smart decisions from here on out. As a fan I understand that. Don't you understand that too? Are there fans who don't understand that?

And about your last comment... To equate this season of all seasons -- the one where Vlade traded multiple picks (last year's first round pick, a future first round pick, and multiple years of swap rights) to clear out cap space for playoff tested free agents in an all-out bid to squeeze one more playoff series into ol' Arco for the season ticket holders -- to equate that to what's happening with perennial 9-win Philly is either disingenuous or naive. George Karl killed this season. You want to boo somebody, boo him. The rest of the organization tried their damnedest to give you what you want. Vivek let Vlade make the decisions this year and I supported the decisions he made. It didn't work out, not everything does, so now we move on and make the necessary adjustments.

I guess maybe the difference between my thinking and yours on this issue is that you seem to see this season as it's own distinct unit -- as 1 discrete monetary transaction -- and I only see a continuity of one season flowing into another. The end of Arco is a moment to celebrate, but other than that, it's just one more step in the journey. Who wouldn't lose 5 games here to win 50 more down the road? That's a pretty good trade-off isn't it? I thought the Golden State example would have made that clear. Maybe that's just my opinion but it's pretty black and white to me. I'll always take the lump sum payoff over the subscription service. I'd rather pay $8 for a CD and listen to it as often as I want, when and where I want and share it with whomever I want than pay $5 a month from now until infinity for a streaming service. This is the same thing to me. I've suffered through all of the horrible hair-pulling losses this season with all of you. I'll sit through a handful more for a better team next year. Small up front cost, better long-term payoff. Not chest thumping, just logic. Or what passes for logic in my brain anyway.

 

[pshn80]

Sorry but I'm a get 'em good, hod 'em down and, each time, beat the beejaysus out of 'em. Save on the draft and put your money to better use otherwise and make an even better team!

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I'm not a million miles away, I'm 5 1/2 hours away by car or 1 hour away by air. I'm in Sacramento 3 or 4 times a year and I usually go to a game when I'm there. I buy Kings gear for myself and my family members. I'm the biggest fan in my immediate family so I'll take them to games when I'm there. I may not be a season ticket holder, but I know some of them. This season I sat through a shellacking by Portland in December -- or actually only 3/4 of it because it took that long for the ticket office personnel to sort out why my uncle's season tickets weren't scanning properly.

And I'm also not pounding my chest about anything, I'm making an observation to the people who are pounding their chests (namely, you) that every other team in the league tanks. Why are we somehow supposed to be above it? If you want to make an argument for why winning the rest of our games puts us in a better position to improve in the off-season have at it. I would listen to that with interest. But the whole "do it for the fans" routine never rings true for me. Fans are paying to be entertained. They're paying to watch good basketball, they're paying for the thrill of hope and sharing in the success of the team with the community. This season is already over but hope remains for the future of the team if we make smart decisions from here on out. As a fan I understand that. Don't you understand that too? Are there fans who don't understand that?

And about your last comment... To equate this season of all seasons -- the one where Vlade traded multiple picks (last year's first round pick, a future first round pick, and multiple years of swap rights) to clear out cap space for playoff tested free agents in an all-out bid to squeeze one more playoff series into ol' Arco for the season ticket holders -- to equate that to what's happening with perennial 9-win Philly is either disingenuous or naive. George Karl killed this season. You want to boo somebody, boo him. The rest of the organization tried their damnedest to give you what you want. Vivek let Vlade make the decisions this year and I supported the decisions he made. It didn't work out, not everything does, so now we move on and make the necessary adjustments.

I guess maybe the difference between my thinking and yours on this issue is that you seem to see this season as it's own distinct unit -- as 1 discrete monetary transaction -- and I only see a continuity of one season flowing into another. The end of Arco is a moment to celebrate, but other than that, it's just one more step in the journey. Who wouldn't lose 5 games here to win 50 more down the road? That's a pretty good trade-off isn't it? I thought the Golden State example would have made that clear. Maybe that's just my opinion but it's pretty black and white to me. I'll always take the lump sum payoff over the subscription service. I'd rather pay $8 for a CD and listen to it as often as I want, when and where I want and share it with whomever I want than pay $5 a month from now until infinity for a streaming service. This is the same thing to me. I've suffered through all of the horrible hair-pulling losses this season with all of you. I'll sit through a handful more for a better team next year. Small up front cost, better long-term payoff. Not chest thumping, just logic. Or what passes for logic in my brain anyway.

If the team wants to tank, let them tank. As long as, while they're tanking, they're not charging full market value for the product. It's one thing to put out a team that you think can win, and you're wrong, and they lose. It's a whole different animal to put out a team that you know can't win, and don't want to win, but still charge the consumer full freight to watch it, anyway.

If you're trying to lose to put yourself in better position for the lottery, fine. You're never going to convince me that it's not a ***** move but, fine; it's "strategy," or whatever. Sell the tickets at half-price, then. But I bet you that Ranadivé ain't gonna ****ing do that.

 

[gilly420]

If the team wants to tank, let them tank. As long as, while they're tanking, they're not charging full market value for the product. It's one thing to put out a team that you think can win, and you're wrong, and they lose. It's a whole different animal to put out a team that you know can't win, and don't want to win, but still charge the consumer full freight to watch it, anyway.

If you're trying to lose to put yourself in better position for the lottery, fine. You're never going to convince me that it's not a ***** move but, fine; it's "strategy," or whatever. Sell the tickets at half-price, then. But I bet you that Ranadivé ain't gonna ****ing do that.

The problem is they are selling tickets (not resale) for less than face value. For example, tonight there is a special deal of $10/ticket. It's a giant middle finger to the season ticket holders, I ponied up for $41.00/ticket last spring only to be treated to this garbage drama fest. Karl is a snake and DMC shows zero ability to lead a team or act like a professional on the court and in the lockeroom.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

The problem is they are selling tickets (not resale) for less than face value. For example, tonight there is a special deal of $10/ticket. It's a giant middle finger to the season ticket holders, I ponied up for $41.00/ticket last spring only to be treated to this garbage drama fest.

That does, indeed, appear to be a kick in the nads for STH's.

 

[VF21]

You could have just stopped there....

It's fine for you to feel this way as a fan but "If they lose, then they lose" or in other words "F it, winning feels good, I don't care about the future of the team" isn't an attitude I want the front office applying to their decisions. We talk about this every year and it's always the same thing. I've yet to see a single end of the season win carry over to the following year. Yeah I know the lottery sucks but the difference here is between a 30 win team having no pick in the draft and a 30 win team having a lotto pick. Every other team in the league would do it in our situation. Losing the pick because we're trying to prove something would be just as self-destructive as allowing George Karl to sit on the sideline for the last month has been. We still get to watch Seth Curry and Willie Cauley-Stein play their hearts out every game. They've suffered through a poopoo year like everyone else has and earned a chance to shine. Bench the starters. Maybe not all at once like the Portland game but at least stagger them. If the bench crew wins a few games on their own, good for them. If the bench crew wins every one of our remaining games and we lose the pick, well we tried anyway.

I don't have tickets to the last game at Arco Arena/Power Balance Pavilion/Sleep Train Arena, but I would feel the same way even if I did. That building has seen a lot of losing already. I've personally watched more horrible basketball in that building already than I care to remember. We're aiming for a fresh start next year in a brand new building. Just let it go. The season ticket holders, I think, would probably like to watch some playoff basketball in the future. You want to reward their commitment and faith in the team? Do the smart thing. There's no reason to keep running our full team out there every game and acting like it'd be a pleasure to give Chicago our draft pick.

The Sacramento Kings signed a 35 year lease with the City of Sacramento and are moving into a brand new downtown arena next year. There's plenty to celebrate! Why make it about winning a meaningless game? Get every former King who wants to show up into the building. Watch highlights (and lowlights) of the past 30 years of Kings basketball in Sacramento. Show some videos to remind everyone how miraculous our fight to save the team was. Make the concessions free all night long. Put an "I was there" T-shirt on every chair. Print the names on the shirts if they're season ticket holders. I can think of a hundred ways to make that last game special without DeMarcus and Rudy on the floor.

Talk to some STH. Ask them how they feel about your view of what would be "smart" for the Kings to do. It's really easy to speak in the abstract but I have friends who have ponied up upwards of $200 a game for their ST and they do not want to go to STA to watch the Kings tank. And, while you're at it, talk to the Kings fans who pay good money to travel to Sacramento a few times a year to see the team play and hopefully win.

Let the Kings tank on the road, if they must, but do not insult loyal fans by doing so at home. Luckily, it appears that might be exactly what the Kings plan on doing.

A LOT of former Kings are going to be at STA on April 9. Do you honestly expect Demarcus and Rudy to sit by idly while some of their childhood heroes are watching? Seriously?

 

[hrdboild]

Talk to some STH. Ask them how they feel about your view of what would be "smart" for the Kings to do. It's really easy to speak in the abstract but I have friends who have ponied up upwards of $200 a game for their ST and they do not want to go to STA to watch the Kings tank. And, while you're at it, talk to the Kings fans who pay good money to travel to Sacramento a few times a year to see the team play and hopefully win.

Let the Kings tank on the road, if they must, but do not insult loyal fans by doing so at home. Luckily, it appears that might be exactly what the Kings plan on doing.

A LOT of former Kings are going to be at STA on April 9. Do you honestly expect Demarcus and Rudy to sit by idly while some of their childhood heroes are watching? Seriously?

No I don't expect it to happen. But it's still the smartest thing to do. Everyone is entitled to feel how they want. I'm as much of a fan as anyone else. I don't dismiss your opinion, I just don't agree with it. I felt betrayed when Tyreke Evans was front and center at every rally to save the Kings and was promptly dismissed by the new management a couple months later. I thought that was a pretty crapty move at the time and I still do. But business is business, as they say. All is forgiven when we win the title.

 

[VF21]

No I don't expect it to happen. But it's still the smartest thing to do. Everyone is entitled to feel how they want. I'm as much of a fan as anyone else. I don't dismiss your opinion, I just don't agree with it. I felt betrayed when Tyreke Evans was front and center at every rally to save the Kings and was promptly dismissed by the new management a couple months later. I thought that was a pretty poopooty move at the time and I still do. But business is business, as they say. All is forgiven when we win the title.

Fair enough.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

No I don't expect it to happen. But it's still the smartest thing to do. Everyone is entitled to feel how they want. I'm as much of a fan as anyone else. I don't dismiss your opinion, I just don't agree with it. I felt betrayed when Tyreke Evans was front and center at every rally to save the Kings and was promptly dismissed by the new management a couple months later. I thought that was a pretty poopooty move at the time and I still do. But business is business, as they say. All is forgiven when we win the title.

If you're going to say stuff like "Everyone is entitled to feel how they want," then I feel like you need to qualify that you're just speaking for @hrdboild regarding your last sentence, too. Because, First of All™, I personally will not consider all to be forgiven "when" we win the title, and I don't think any of us who aren't STH's get to decide for the people who are whether winning a championship would make all the games they flushed their bread down the toilet because the organization wasn't trying to compete worth it. And, Second of All, what if we don't win the title? It's only "smart" if it works.

 

[hrdboild]

If you're going to say stuff like "Everyone is entitled to feel how they want," then I feel like you need to qualify that you're just speaking for @hrdboild regarding your last sentence, too. Because, First of All™, I personally will not consider all to be forgiven "when" we win the title, and I don't think any of us who aren't STH's get to decide for the people who are whether winning a championship would make all the games they flushed their bread down the toilet because the organization wasn't trying to compete worth it. And, Second of All, what if we don't win the title? It's only "smart" if it works.

I don't think I should ever have to qualify that I'm speaking for myself. That should go without saying. And I don't even know that I would forgive all of the mismanagement that has gone on here, but I'm also pretty sure I won't know until it happens. Perspectives have a way of changing over time. I was mad when Jason Williams was traded for Mike Bibby because I had no idea who Mike Bibby was but I did know that Jason Williams was fun to watch. In retrospect, it was a very astute move by Geoff Petrie and we may never sniff the WCF without making that move. And there's a part of me that still mourns 5 or 6 additional years of crazy highlight reel passes, but I'm satisfied with the tradeoff. Obviously I'm not a STH right now because I can't make it to more than 4 or 5 games a season. That doesn't mean I won't be one in the future. But I'm not interested in comparing Bonafides. I will willingly concede though that your Soapbox is bigger than mine so preach on, if that's what you feel you need to do.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I didn't really think that I was preaching, but mileage varies on that, I guess. If you think that my argument can be distilled down to "comparing Bonafides", however, we're unlikely to reach any common ground upon which to continue this discussion.