New Kings fan here with some questions

[Kings_of_California]

First, just to introduce myself -

I've always had a favorite baseball, football and hockey team. Basketball however, has always been vacant.

Growing up in New York, the obvious choice was the Knicks... but they just never caught my interest.

I moved to the Bay Area 5 years ago. I started following the Kings, and slowly but surely I've become a fan.

Willie was my favorite player coming out of the draft, so once the Kings selected him, that was pretty much what sealed the deal for me. I find this current team exciting and unpredictable, so here I find myself now.

With that said, on to my questions...

1) What is going on with Ben McLemore?

From what I remember, this kid was considered one of the most talented shooters in the draft. I had my doubts, but was ultimately confident that he would succeed. Here we are a few years later, and he's not really done anything. From what I've read, his athleticism has been his only sticking point. What happened?

2) Why so much hate for Collison?

He's a backup PG. I can understand that he's not clutch, but being the backup PG, he shouldn't be taking those important shots anyway. He's a decent player overall, I just think Karl overvalues him. I feel as though he would be more efficient if he were less of a focal point on offense. He shouldn't be a go-to guy.

3) Tell me a little bit about the lesser known players... Moreland and Dukan. Are they valuable at all?

From what I've read, Moreland is a solid rebounder, but provides little else. Dukan appears to possess some decent shooting ability and stretch potential, but is very raw and might be a D-League/NBA tweener.

 

[mac]

First, just to introduce myself -

I've always had a favorite baseball, football and hockey team. Basketball however, has always been vacant.

Growing up in New York, the obvious choice was the Knicks... but they just never caught my interest.

I moved to the Bay Area 5 years ago. I started following the Kings, and slowly but surely I've become a fan.

Willie was my favorite player coming out of the draft, so once the Kings selected him, that was pretty much what sealed the deal for me. I find this current team exciting and unpredictable, so here I find myself now.

With that said, on to my questions...

1) What is going on with Ben McLemore?

From what I remember, this kid was considered one of the most talented shooters in the draft. I had my doubts, but was ultimately confident that he would succeed. Here we are a few years later, and he's not really done anything. From what I've read, his athleticism has been his only sticking point. What happened?

2) Why so much hate for Collison?

He's a backup PG. I can understand that he's not clutch, but being the backup PG, he shouldn't be taking those important shots anyway. He's a decent player overall, I just think Karl overvalues him. I feel as though he would be more efficient if he were less of a focal point on offense. He shouldn't be a go-to guy.

3) Tell me a little bit about the lesser known players... Moreland and Dukan. Are they valuable at all?

From what I've read, Moreland is a solid rebounder, but provides little else. Dukan appears to possess some decent shooting ability and stretch potential, but is very raw and might be a D-League/NBA tweener.

1) Nothing happened. He's shown some promise here and there, but nothing that suggests he will ever be a top 20-30 SG in the league thus far. Some people here have this idea that he's a good defender, but again, that's not a nightly thing. Karl has a short leash with him, but it's not like he's the solution to our problems and is just being left on the bench. Seems like it's always about confidence with him.

2) His shot is downright ugly this season and I'm not sure why. Fans are expecting much better play from him because he looked a lot better last season, was able to pullup for midrange shots and also played some decent D. Haven't seen that this year. But you're right that he hasn't really played that badly. It's more of an expectation of better ability coming off a good two thirds of the season last year as the starting PG.

3) I'm not sure if Dukan has even played a single NBA minute. Maybe 1. Supposed to be a good shooter but realistically don't expect him to get any burn. Moreland is super athletic, but again too raw to really contribute anything for significant minutes. He had a really impressive SL last season but that's about it. Also injured if I'm not wrong.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I moved to the Bay Area 5 years ago. I started following the Kings, and slowly but surely I've become a fan.

Willie was my favorite player coming out of the draft, so once the Kings selected him, that was pretty much what sealed the deal for me. I find this current team exciting and unpredictable, so here I find myself now.

Welcome!

1) What is going on with Ben McLemore?

From what I remember, this kid was considered one of the most talented shooters in the draft. I had my doubts, but was ultimately confident that he would succeed. Here we are a few years later, and he's not really done anything. From what I've read, his athleticism has been his only sticking point. What happened?

By "sticking point" here, I assume you mean "reason he's stuck around"? McLemore is a fantastic athlete, but he lacks that killer instinct that NBA players need to be great. I for one was shocked when half the world seemed to be considering him for the #1 overall pick - sure, it was a weak draft but even in college he spent so much time invisible on the court that I couldn't see him taking up a role as a star. Unfortunately that passivity seems to have followed him to the NBA. He has moments, stretches where he goes on a run and scores 7 points in a row and looks every bit the confident player that we need as a starting SG, but then he fades into the background again. Right now, he's still a waiting game, but it's been a long and pretty frustrating wait.

2) Why so much hate for Collison?

He's a backup PG. I can understand that he's not clutch, but being the backup PG, he shouldn't be taking those important shots anyway. He's a decent player overall, I just think Karl overvalues him. I feel as though he would be more efficient if he were less of a focal point on offense. He shouldn't be a go-to guy.

Can't tell you. I think it's just a vocal minority, but I haven't really tried to count the Collison detractors. Oddly enough he has been one of our better players this year all told - he's our second best 3PT% shooter, our second most efficient shooter of anybody playing at least 1000 minutes so far (WCS is better as well but has had limited minutes until very recently), he's actually our #3 per game scorer (barely ahead of Omri and Rondo) and he's doing that coming off the bench. His passing numbers don't really measure up to a starting PG's passing numbers (and certainly not Rondo's) but he's also playing quite a few minutes off the ball.

I think the majority of it is actually backlash against the way he's being used - he plays a lot of minutes as a 6'0" SG, and while he's able to hold up the scoring end of that bargain, defensively it certainly leaves something to be desired. He does give good effort on defense, and was generally considered an excellent defender at UCLA, but bigger players expose him badly (see Derrick Rose, in the UCLA/Memphis game) and nothing has really changed on that count. I agree that we might be better off playing less of the two-PG lineup, but that's not Darren's fault...and darn it, he really has earned minutes. Either you eat away from his minutes, or you eat away from Rondo's minutes, or you play 2PG...you're kind of damned every which way. If Ben or Marco were playing better, I think you'd see Darren ride the pine a bit more. But all that said, none of it provides a great reason to dump on Darren.

3) Tell me a little bit about the lesser known players... Moreland and Dukan. Are they valuable at all?

From what I've read, Moreland is a solid rebounder, but provides little else. Dukan appears to possess some decent shooting ability and stretch potential, but is very raw and might be a D-League/NBA tweener.

Moreland is an athletic PF, good size for the position, but we haven't really had much chance to see what he can do because he has suffered two season-ending injuries in each of his two NBA seasons while totaling 26 minutes. We expect that he could be a good shotblocker and rebounder - not as good of a shotblocker or defender as WCS, possibly a better rebounder (we have to see how Willie does on the boards in the long term), but if he can't stay healthy what good does he do us? I think this time last year fans would have been reluctant to part with him because of the glaring holes we had on D, but now that we have WCS, he's probably completely expendable.

Dukan is not a player that deserved an NBA contract. He wasn't really on the draft radar at all, he hasn't seen an NBA minute, and I suspect the only reason he has a contract at all is that Vlade knew his dad. The shocking thing is that he got guaranteed money instead of a training camp deal. Don't be surprised to see him cut if we need a roster spot - he's clearly #1 on the chopping block.

 

[biltalent]

Good choice! At least the Kings are always entertaining no matter what they do and I doubt they will bore you.

Regarding Mclemore:
I would like to add that one of his major problems on offense is his ball handling ability. In his first season he could barely dribble the ball without picking up his dribble or turning it over. He has improved since then (this year he improved his drive-and-dish game) but you still can't ask him to create a shot for himself in the half-court even when you set him a pick. So whats left is that you can run him around screens or use him as a spot up shooter with no ball handling responsibility. But he is not that good at coming around screens either so that leaves the spot up for him to score. This year, he seems to at least hit his open catch and shoot 3s at an apropriate rate.
So whats left is an phenomenal athlete that can't create and struggles with confidence. He is at his best on the fast break or when he can hop into a 3 from a pass from Rondo or a post kickout from Cuz. In theory he would actually compliment a ball dominant Rondo-Gay-Cousins core pretty well if he could step up his defense. But he is a not a good defender and probably will never be great. Given his physical tools and the fact that he worked hard and improved something every offseason, I am still optimistic that he can become an adequate 3 and d type of player down the road though.

 

[bajaden]

Welcome!





By "sticking point" here, I assume you mean "reason he's stuck around"? McLemore is a fantastic athlete, but he lacks that killer instinct that NBA players need to be great. I for one was shocked when half the world seemed to be considering him for the #1 overall pick - sure, it was a weak draft but even in college he spent so much time invisible on the court that I couldn't see him taking up a role as a star. Unfortunately that passivity seems to have followed him to the NBA. He has moments, stretches where he goes on a run and scores 7 points in a row and looks every bit the confident player that we need as a starting SG, but then he fades into the background again. Right now, he's still a waiting game, but it's been a long and pretty frustrating wait.



Can't tell you. I think it's just a vocal minority, but I haven't really tried to count the Collison detractors. Oddly enough he has been one of our better players this year all told - he's our second best 3PT% shooter, our second most efficient shooter of anybody playing at least 1000 minutes so far (WCS is better as well but has had limited minutes until very recently), he's actually our #3 per game scorer (barely ahead of Omri and Rondo) and he's doing that coming off the bench. His passing numbers don't really measure up to a starting PG's passing numbers (and certainly not Rondo's) but he's also playing quite a few minutes off the ball.

I think the majority of it is actually backlash against the way he's being used - he plays a lot of minutes as a 6'0" SG, and while he's able to hold up the scoring end of that bargain, defensively it certainly leaves something to be desired. He does give good effort on defense, and was generally considered an excellent defender at UCLA, but bigger players expose him badly (see Derrick Rose, in the UCLA/Memphis game) and nothing has really changed on that count. I agree that we might be better off playing less of the two-PG lineup, but that's not Darren's fault...and darn it, he really has earned minutes. Either you eat away from his minutes, or you eat away from Rondo's minutes, or you play 2PG...you're kind of damned every which way. If Ben or Marco were playing better, I think you'd see Darren ride the pine a bit more. But all that said, none of it provides a great reason to dump on Darren.



Moreland is an athletic PF, good size for the position, but we haven't really had much chance to see what he can do because he has suffered two season-ending injuries in each of his two NBA seasons while totaling 26 minutes. We expect that he could be a good shotblocker and rebounder - not as good of a shotblocker or defender as WCS, possibly a better rebounder (we have to see how Willie does on the boards in the long term), but if he can't stay healthy what good does he do us? I think this time last year fans would have been reluctant to part with him because of the glaring holes we had on D, but now that we have WCS, he's probably completely expendable.

Dukan is not a player that deserved an NBA contract. He wasn't really on the draft radar at all, he hasn't seen an NBA minute, and I suspect the only reason he has a contract at all is that Vlade knew his dad. The shocking thing is that he got guaranteed money instead of a training camp deal. Don't be surprised to see him cut if we need a roster spot - he's clearly #1 on the chopping block.

I remember at summer league Cruzdude asking me what I thought of Dukan, and my response was, I don't, think of him. We saw a lot of similar players there that I would have signed before Dukan, but maybe Vlade knows something that I don't.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I remember at summer league Cruzdude asking me what I thought of Dukan, and my response was, I don't, think of him. We saw a lot of similar players there that I would have signed before Dukan, but maybe Vlade knows something that I don't.

Yeah that Dukan thing has always seemed odd to me, especially now that there are guys out there (like Tony Wroten) who would seem to provide much more value for use of the roster spot.

It is interesting that he's from Croatia, so there could be a Vlade connection there. I thought it could also be a favor to his agent. So, I did some digging... and although I've never heard of his agent... he happens to be a member of Relativity Sports, also home to a Mr. Dan Fegan (and, as a key investor, Mr. Ron Burkle). Not sure if I'm starting to sound like some of our more conspiracy minded members, but it makes you go "hmm."

 

[lawlman91]

If I recall correctly, aren't Ben's on/off numbers strangely solid?

 

[bajaden]

Yeah that Dukan thing has always seemed odd to me, especially now that there are guys out there (like Tony Wroten) who would seem to provide much more value for use of the roster spot.

It is interesting that he's from Croatia, so there could be a Vlade connection there. I thought it could also be a favor to his agent. So, I did some digging... and although I've never heard of his agent... he happens to be a member of Relativity Sports, also home to a Mr. Dan Fegan (and, as a key investor, Mr. Ron Burkle). Not sure if I'm starting to sound like some of our more conspiracy minded members, but it makes you go "hmm."

Hey, I love a juicy conspiracy....Especially one that doesn't matter much.

 

[Amit149]

If I recall correctly, aren't Ben's on/off numbers strangely solid?

That's right, he is a positive in +/- (0.3), the only other players in the + section are: DMC (+2.9), Casspi (+2.1), WCS (+1.5) and Curry (+0.9).

He is also pretty solid when it comes to NetRtg at (-0.6) which trails only the same guys- WCS (+2.7), Casspi (+2.5), DMC (+2.4) and Curry (+1.8).

 

[Bricklayer]

That's right, he is a positive in +/- (0.3), the only other players in the + section are: DMC (+2.9), Casspi (+2.1), WCS (+1.5) and Curry (+0.9).

He is also pretty solid when it comes to NetRtg at (-0.6) which trails only the same guys- WCS (+2.7), Casspi (+2.5), DMC (+2.4) and Curry (+1.8).

Ben plays 18 minutes a night most nights, with all 18 of those minute coming next to Cuz. His on/off better be solid.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Yeah that Dukan thing has always seemed odd to me, especially now that there are guys out there (like Tony Wroten) who would seem to provide much more value for use of the roster spot.

It is interesting that he's from Croatia, so there could be a Vlade connection there. I thought it could also be a favor to his agent. So, I did some digging... and although I've never heard of his agent... he happens to be a member of Relativity Sports, also home to a Mr. Dan Fegan (and, as a key investor, Mr. Ron Burkle). Not sure if I'm starting to sound like some of our more conspiracy minded members, but it makes you go "hmm."

There's an easier "conspiracy theory" - Vlade and Dukan's dad played together on the Yugoslavian national team. I don't think we really need to drag agents into this at all, I think it was pure, well, nepotism even if that's not quite the right word.

 

[Bricklayer]

There's an easier "conspiracy theory" - Vlade and Dukan's dad played together on the Yugoslavian national team. I don't think we really need to drag agents into this at all, I think it was pure, well, nepotism even if that's not quite the right word.

I had no idea. How the hell dig you did up that little nugget?

Does explain it, although not in a way that makes me very happy. If the dance team next year turns out to be a bunch of gangly scuffy Balkans looking guys with cigarettes dangling out of their mouths, I'm not going to be amused.

 

[Amit149]

Ben plays 18 minutes a night most nights, with all 18 of those minute coming next to Cuz. His on/off better be solid.

That's true, I just pointed out the numbers cause he asked but of course raw plus/minus numbers are affected by who you share the floor with, he does drop significantly when looking at RPM for example- he drops to 2nd worst on the team with an horrific -3.16...

The worst player on the team is Marco with a god awful -5.91 making him number 432 on the list out of 434 players (yeah, it's that bad)- so atleast Ben has been far better than his replacement!

 

[Bricklayer]

We have no SG this year. Its a titanic hole.

Really our last clear one with WCS emerging as the obvious PF.

 

[KingsCitizen]

Wow! It seems that the folks here has gone soft on newbies.

I remember the time when a newbie has to make 100 non-annoying post first before he even gets a reply on his thread especially from guys like the Brick, Baja, and Capt.
Gone are the those days it seems.

 

[Bricklayer]

Wow! It seems that the folks here has gone soft on newbies.

I remember the time when a newbie has to make 100 non-annoying post first before he even gets a reply on his thread especially from guys like the Brick, Baja, and Capt.
Gone are the those days it seems.

Wha? I'm innocent of these charges. I've always been the mod most interested in growing the board, unlike the other old humbugs around here.

You're probably thinking of Baja and his traditional "make the newbie run naked down the street singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Weiner"" style hazing techniques. But I try to stay above that stuff. Especially when they start using sheep and whatnot.

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

Am I the only one that fails to see what's wrong with Ben and why he can't be our SG?... He just went through a nice stretch of games during our winning streak and then against Charlotte he gets benched for "bad defense" while Beli eats up his minutes... I bet if Ben could get one 10-game stretch where he gets 30-35 minutes per game, he'll show that he is our future SG.

 

[KingMilz]

Am I the only one that fails to see what's wrong with Ben and why he can't be our SG?... He just went through a nice stretch of games during our winning streak and then against Charlotte he gets benched for "bad defense" while Beli eats up his minutes... I bet if Ben could get one 10-game stretch where he gets 30-35 minutes per game, he'll show that he is our future SG.

Ben sadly is mentally frail, he can easily be a decent SG in the NBA but to often he looks nervous/scared regardless of playing time the game against Portland was a perfect example (even the terrible Blazers commentary could see it). Ben based on his athletic ability and shooting should be much better if he had better confidence

 

[PurpleHaze]

Ben sadly is mentally frail, he can easily be a decent SG in the NBA but to often he looks nervous/scared regardless of playing time the game against Portland was a perfect example (even the terrible Blazers commentary could see it). Ben based on his athletic ability and shooting should be much better if he had better confidence

Deer in the headlights syndrome - still! It's been that way since McLemore first stepped on an NBA court with only a few tiny baby steps progress. Such frustrating mediocrity from starting NBA shooting guard, unlike ascending rookie Cauley-Stein. Ben a picture of endless flailing around looking for consistency but unable to find an answer. What's his problem? Apparently not work ethic as generally noted. Maybe overall IQ. Relying on scapegoats instead of stepping back and looking squarely in the mirror. Heck "the pizza guy" doesn't even sound or act convincing in that pressure-cooker spokesperson role.

 

[John Galt]

I was at Ben's first game - and IIRC on the first possession he soared up the lane for a Sportscenter dunk - it was going to be beautiful... except it clanged hard off the rim he missed the basket!

He klutzed up a few other dunks in the early going to the point I remember thinking "just lay it in man we need the two points".

I wonder if he had slammed that first one home and been on Sportscenter - if that would have changed his confidence NBA experience.

 

[sono]

1. bust
2. dust
3. lost